Works Relation to Salvation

[Gary K]

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
=====

James told Paul to keep the Law, including physical circumcision, and you believe he excused animal sacrifices from that?

Who is the one arguing from silence here?
There is zero evidence of any animal sacrifices being made. You're the one alleging they were. Where is your evidence that a sacrifice for sin was made? An offering is not necessarily sacrifice.

.Act_21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Isa_57:6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?

Neh_10:39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.

Ezr_8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

An offering for sin was called a sin offering or a burnt offering all throughout the OT. And there is no purification offering in scripture. Paul was satisfying the Pharisee's laws in the Talmud to keep the controversy to a minimum. The only purification rites in the OT was for women having their period and for anyone who had come in contact with a dead body of any kind.

 

[Guojing]

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
=====

James told Paul to keep the Law, including physical circumcision, and you believe he excused animal sacrifices from that?

Who is the one arguing from silence here?
There is zero evidence of any animal sacrifices being made. You're the one alleging they were. Where is your evidence that a sacrifice for sin was made? An offering is not necessarily sacrifice.









An offering for sin was called a sin offering or a burnt offering all throughout the OT. And there is no purification offering in scripture. Paul was satisfying the Pharisee's laws in the Talmud to keep the controversy to a minimum. The only purification rites in the OT was for women having their period and for anyone who had come in contact with a dead body of any kind.

You are strange.

Being zealous for the law of moses and following the customs, means animal sacrifices are no longer being done?

Do you understand what all and zealous actually mean?

 

[Gary K]

You are strange.

Being zealous for the law of moses and following the customs, means animal sacrifices are no longer being done?

Do you understand what all and zealous actually mean?

Yes. Where does Paul advocate anything but faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins?

 

[Guojing]

Yes. Where does Paul advocate anything but faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins?

Non answer

 

[Gary K]

Non answer

According to you.

No where does Paul advocate sin offerings or burnt offerings for the forgiveness of sin. And you ignored the scripture that shows there were offerings for things other than sin. And that there were no offerings for purification in the OT. The burden of proof to support your position lies with you, not with me.

 

[Guojing]

According to you.

No where does Paul advocate sin offerings or burnt offerings for the forgiveness of sin. And you ignored the scripture that shows there were offerings for things other than sin. And that there were no offerings for purification in the OT. The burden of proof to support your position lies with you, not with me.

All along, I was mentioning James.

 

[Gary K]

All along, I was mentioning James.

So? What's that have to do with Paul? I see no evidence is forthcoming defending your assertion.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Gary, I asked You quite a few questions in my post #278 and am interested in seeing your answers. If you can answer all those questions Biblically then I will have to reassess my thoughts on Sabbath observance. If you are unable then you should reassess your position. This goes for all those who believe you are still under the Sabbath laws on the Sinai covenant.

Then why are you not telling us that we are required to do all of the other things the old covenant laws required like observing the feast days?

Why do you single out just the weekly Sabbath that was given only to Israel?

Have you studied 2Cor 3:6-11 where it tells us that the ten commandments have ended and now we all have the Holy Spirit as our guide?

And BNR has quoted Col 2:16-17 to you many times and it seems to fly over your head.

And what about Matt 5 where Jesus told the Jews that not even one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL is accomplished yet you tell us that the Levitical system of sacrifice has ended, but nothing else.

How could that happen when Jesus made it so plain that it could not happen until ALL was accomplished. Could it be that the word "fulfill" really means bring to an end.

Did Jesus do everything He came to do?

Did he bring an end to the old covenant with its myriad of laws?

Why did Jesus tell us in John 15 verses 9-14 that He kept the Torah and asked us to love others as He loves us?

And why did John in 1Jn 3 write that we belong to the truth if we believe in Jesus an love others as He taught?

 

[Gary K]

Hi Gary, I asked You quite a few questions in my post #278 and am interested in seeing your answers. If you can answer all those questions Biblically then I will have to reassess my thoughts on Sabbath observance. If you are unable then you should reassess your position. This goes for all those who believe you are still under the Sabbath laws on the Sinai covenant.

Then why are you not telling us that we are required to do all of the other things the old covenant laws required like observing the feast days?

Why do you single out just the weekly Sabbath that was given only to Israel?

Have you studied 2Cor 3:6-11 where it tells us that the ten commandments have ended and now we all have the Holy Spirit as our guide?

And BNR has quoted Col 2:16-17 to you many times and it seems to fly over your head.

And what about Matt 5 where Jesus told the Jews that not even one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL is accomplished yet you tell us that the Levitical system of sacrifice has ended, but nothing else.

How could that happen when Jesus made it so plain that it could not happen until ALL was accomplished. Could it be that the word "fulfill" really means bring to an end.

Did Jesus do everything He came to do?

Did he bring an end to the old covenant with its myriad of laws?

Why did Jesus tell us in John 15 verses 9-14 that He kept the Torah and asked us to love others as He loves us?

And why did John in 1Jn 3 write that we belong to the truth if we believe in Jesus an love others as He t22, 23aught?

The fast of tabernacles came to an end as it looked forward to the Messiah. The Passover and the feast of weeks also came to an end at Jesus's death as they looked back at the deliverance from Egypt.

Why We Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

“And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King…

www.icej.org

Single out the Sabbath? No, we single out the 10 commandments as still binding. You single it out as you separate it from the rest.

I've studied all scripture for decades and I disagree with how you read it.

And the same thing happens when I quote Galatians 5: 22, 23. We differ in how we read scripture.

So, you think all means some? Is everything accomplished on this earth already?

Jesus accomplished everything He came to do.

No. Jesus did not put an end to the old covenant. God's law is as eternal as He is. Jesus put an end to all those laws that pointed forward to Him. Do you still offer a burnt sacrifice for your sins?

Because the Jews of His day had left the Torah behind and followed the traditions of men and Jesus came to uncover the true meaning of God's law.

Because it is the truth.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The fast of tabernacles came to an end as it looked forward to the Messiah. The Passover and the feast of weeks also came to an end at Jesus's death as they looked back at the deliverance from Egypt.

Why We Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

“And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King…

www.icej.org

Single out the Sabbath? No, we single out the 10 commandments as still binding. You single it out as you separate it from the rest.

I've studied all scripture for decades and I disagree with how you read it.

And the same thing happens when I quote Galatians 5: 22, 23. We differ in how we read scripture.

So, you think all means some? Is everything accomplished on this earth already?

Jesus accomplished everything He came to do.

No. Jesus did not put an end to the old covenant. God's law is as eternal as He is. Jesus put an end to all those laws that pointed forward to Him. Do you still offer a burnt sacrifice for your sins?

Because the Jews of His day had left the Torah behind and followed the traditions of men and Jesus came to uncover the true meaning of God's law.

Because it is the truth.

I'd like to know:

1. What happens if you don't obey the 10 commandments all the time from the heart without a single evil thought?
2. And concerning this one commandment, what exactly is required to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8)? Is it just a prohibition for you and all living things that are under your care to not perform any work?

 

[Gary K]

I'd like to know:

1. What happens if you don't obey the 10 commandments all the time from the heart without a single evil thought?
2. And concerning this one commandment, what exactly is required to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8)? Is it just a prohibition for you and all living things that are under your care to not perform any work?

1. I ask Jesus for forgiveness just like you.

2. No. We are to keep the seventh day holy by worshiping God just like Jesus did.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

1. I ask Jesus for forgiveness just like you.

I wasn't asking about you in particular, but ok. So, there is no real difference between breaking one of the ten commandments verses committing any other sin (like revelry and drunkenness in Romans 13:13, for instance)?

2. No. We are to keep the seventh day holy by worshiping God just like Jesus did.

Here is the commandment that God spoke:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex 20:8–11)​

He rested on the seventh day and hallowed it, commanded us (and all living things under our care -- which I would think includes employees) to do all our work in six days but rest on the seventh day. So all that is part of the commandment to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy", right? And in addition to that, keeping it holy means we need to worship God just like Jesus did, right? Can you please explain what you mean by the latter requirement? Is that a reference to attending church services, or is it a refernce to something else?

 

[Gary K]

I wasn't asking about you in particular, but ok. So, there is no real difference between breaking one of the ten commandments verses committing any other sin (like revelry and drunkenness in Romans 13:13, for instance)?

Here is the commandment that God spoke:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex 20:8–11)​

He rested on the seventh day and hallowed it, commanded us (and all living things under our care -- which I would think includes employees) to do all our work in six days but rest on the seventh day. So all that is part of the commandment to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy", right? And in addition to that, keeping it holy means we need to worship God just like Jesus did, right? Can you please explain what you mean by the latter requirement? Is that a reference to attending church services, or is it a refernce to something else?

It's based on scripture saying to Jesus went to the synagogue every Sabbath.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's based on scripture saying to Jesus went to the synagogue every Sabbath.

So, there's no material difference between breaking one of the 10 commandments verses committing any other sin, and keeping the Sabbath holy means neither you nor the living things under your care can do any work on the Sabbath and the people under your care (not the animals) must go to church on the Sabbath (which I guess also must be Saturday or else it does not count).

If all this is true, then a big question arrises. Can a person really be a born again, Spirit filled, child of God if he has no regard whatsoever for refraining from work or going to church on Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week? It seems like you are saying he either needs to observe the Sabbath every week or he needs to ask for forgiveness whenever he fails to do it. I don't see any wiggle room for a person to be saved if he doesn't.

 

[Gary K]

So, there's no material difference between breaking one of the 10 commandments verses committing any other sin, and keeping the Sabbath holy means neither you nor the living things under your care can do any work on the Sabbath and the people under your care (not the animals) must go to church on the Sabbath (which I guess also must be Saturday or else it does not count).

If all this is true, then a big question arrises. Can a person really be a born again, Spirit filled, child of God if he has no regard whatsoever for refraining from work or going to church on Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week? It seems like you are saying he either needs to observe the Sabbath every week or he needs to ask for forgiveness whenever he fails to do it. I don't see any wiggle room for a person to be saved if he doesn't.

I don't think there is if someone refuses to obey God's word but then they aren't going to ask for forgiveness either. If you're azsking in the context of the mark of the beast, then God will bring things about so that everyone will understand the issues, and if they still refuse to keep the Sabbath. then it becomes the mark for them. God is justice and He wants to save as many peiople as He can so everyone must make an informed decision.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't think there is if someone refuses to obey God's word but then they aren't going to ask for forgiveness either. If you're azsking in the context of the mark of the beast, then God will bring things about so that everyone will understand the issues, and if they still refuse to keep the Sabbath. then it becomes the mark for them. God is justice and He wants to save as many peiople as He can so everyone must make an informed decision.

I am speaking on my own behalf. I do not care what day of the week it is. If I want to do some work, I do it. I don't go to church often either, but when I do, it is on a Sunday. I do not have any conviction of sin over these things, so there is no reason to repent or to ask for forgiveness. When I asked God if I should return to obeying the Sabbath commandment as I did years ago and as you all suggest, He reminded me that I have ceased from my works, have entered His rest, and should stay there (Hebrews 4:10), and that I should not let anyone judge me concerning the sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which is merely a shaddow, but the body which casts the shaddow is Christ (Colossians 2:17).

 

[Gary K]

I am speaking on my own behalf. I do not care what day of the week it is. If I want to do some work, I do it. I don't go to church often either, but when I do, it is on a Sunday. I do not have any conviction of sin over these things, so there is no reason to repent or to ask for forgiveness. When I asked God if I should return to obeying the Sabbath commandment as I did years ago and as you all suggest, He reminded me that I have ceased from my works, have entered His rest, and should stay there (Hebrews 4:10), and that I should not let anyone judge me concerning the sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which is merely a shaddow, but the body which casts the shaddow is Christ (Colossians 2:17).

I'm sorry you walked away from a Biblical belief. It has hurt your spirituality as you no longer feel the need to felloowship with believers on a regular basis.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Actually, what I was doing before was against the Bible. But God delivered me from the yoke of bondage that entangled me. And having been set free, I stand fast in my liberty and I refuse to be entangled again. I know you don't understand this, but I pray some day you will.

 

[Guojing]

Actually, what I was doing before was against the Bible. But God delivered me from the yoke of bondage that entangled me. And having been set free, I stand fast in my liberty and I refuse to be entangled again. I know you don't understand this, but I pray some day you will.

He doesn't believe in keeping Luke 12:33, reasoning that it was not directed to him.

Likewise, you don't believe in keeping the Sabbath, using the same reasoning.

Both of you are actually doing the same thing, to different commands.

So if he is fine, you are fine too =)

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

He doesn't believe in keeping Luke 12:33, reasoning that it was not directed to him.

Likewise, you don't believe in keeping the Sabbath, using the same reasoning.

Both of you are actually doing the same thing, to different commands.

So if he is fine, you are fine too =)

The law confines everyone under sin (Gal 3:22). Why is this so hard to understand?
We are not under law but under grace (Ro 6:14). Why is this so hard to understand?
He has set us free from the law so that we may serve Him in the newness of the Spirit (Ro 7:6). Why is this so hard to understand?

A person can't find refuge from sin in the law, because the law smothers everyone with their sins. But God's grace releases us from the smothering effects of the law so that it has no power to condemn us. And having been set free from the law, we are liberated to serve by walking in lock step with Him as He leads, guides, and directs us from the intimacy of our own hearts.

Without the Spirit it is impossible to understand this (1 Cor 2:14). But it is also very difficult to understand why people who have the Spirit and have been set free from the law would return to it when they could stand their ground in the liberty by which Christ has made them free and not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage (Ga 5:1). It is very difficult to understand (Gal 4:19-20).