Works Relation to Salvation

[Gary K]

The law confines everyone under sin (Gal 3:22). Why is this so hard to understand?
We are not under law but under grace (Ro 6:14). Why is this so hard to understand?
He has set us free from the law so that we may serve Him in the newness of the Spirit (Ro 7:6). Why is this so hard to understand?

A person can't find refuge from sin in the law, because the law smothers everyone with their sins. But God's grace releases us from the smothering effects of the law so that it has no power to condemn us. And having been set free from the law, we are liberated to serve by walking in lock step with Him as He leads, guides, and directs us from the intimacy of our own hearts.

Without the Spirit it is impossible to understand this (1 Cor 2:14). But it is also very difficult to understand why people who have the Spirit and have been set free from the law would return to it when they could stand their ground in the liberty by which Christ has made them free and not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage (Ga 5:1). It is very difficult to understand (Gal 4:19-20).

I don't understand why anyone thinks God's law is drudgery and slavery.

Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

And how do we continue therein?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Jesus has made every provision forus to be able to keep the law.

Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't understand why anyone thinks God's law is drudgery and slavery.

The law confines all under sin. Do you not understand what that means?

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

And how do we continue therein?

Notice that it is the law of liberty that we must continue therein.

Jesus has made every provision forus to be able to keep the law.

While it is true that walking in the Spirit keeps the lusts of the flesh from being fulfilled, it does not stop the flesh from lusting. So, even if a person was to walk in the Spirit, he would still be a sinner because of his fleshly lusts that are present with him. And because all sin is lawlessness, he is a breaker of the law as well. There is no getting around this until we shed these clothes of skin. Until then, His grace must be enough for us.

But if you want to distinguish who a person is in Christ (the new man) from who he is in Adam (the old man) so that one may distance himself from the lusts of the flesh and the sinfulness it possesses, then you must realize the new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24), it is not swayable by sin as is the old man, but is one with Jesus who created him when He came to live in our hearts. The new man always loves God and the things of God and never needs forgiveness because he is truly righteous and truly holy.

So no, walking in the Spirit is not another form of legalism.

 

[Gary K]

The law confines all under sin.

Notice that it is the law of liberty that we must continue therein.

While it is true that walking in the Spirit keeps the lusts of the flesh from being fulfilled, it does not stop the flesh from lusting. So, even if a person was to walk in the Spirit, he would still be a sinner because of his fleshly lusts that are present with him. And because all sin is lawlessness, he is a breaker of the law as well. There is no getting around this until we shed these clothes of skin. Until then, His grace must be enough for us.

But if you want to distinguish who a person is in Christ (the new man) from who he is in Adam (the old man) so that one may distance himself from the lusts of the flesh and the sinfulness it possesses, then you must realize the new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24), it is not swayable by sin as is the old man, but is one with Jesus who created him when He came to live in our hearts. The new man always loves God and the things of God and never needs forgiveness because he is truly righteous and truly holy.

So no, walking in the Spirit is not another form of legalism.

But walking in the Spirit means we don't have to sin. That's why the law is the law of liberty when we walk in the Spirit because we are no longer controlled by sin.

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But walking in the Spirit means we don't have to sin.

No it doesn't. You can't stop your flesh from sinning no matter how hard you try. Because lusting is a sin too, not just when you act on it.

That's why the law is the law of liberty when we walk in the Spirit because we are no longer controlled by sin.

Romans 7 begs to differ... "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Ro 7:14) the flesh is totally under the control of the love of sinning. You can't stop it by walking in the Spirit.

 

[Gary K]

No it doesn't. You can't stop your flesh from sinning no matter how hard you try. Because lusting is a sin too, not just when you act on it.

Romans 7 begs to differ... "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Ro 7:14) the flesh is totally under the control of the love of sinning. You can't stop it by walking in the Spirit.

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

So are you a follower of Jesus or a follower of sin?

The carnal man is the unconverted man.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

No law includes the 10 commandments. The breaking of which is the definition of sin.

The OT has promises like this one.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The promises of God are clear. He will heal our carnal hearts but He can do this for us only if we believe it. Jesus told the two blind beggars be it unto as your faith.

Mat 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 9:30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So are you a follower of Jesus or a follower of sin?

The carnal man is the unconverted man.

Nope,

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? (1 Co 3:1–4)​

Saved people drag around a sinful flesh. If not, why do saved people sin? What is the source of their sin? Something else besides their sinful nature causes them to sin? They escaped the sinfiul flesh only to become sinners apart from the flesh?

The OT has promises like this one.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The spirit man created when Jesus came to live in our hearts fulfills the righteous requirements of the law, he is alive because of his true righteousness and holiness, and he does not violate any laws because he is one with God. He does not need to walk in the Spirit to avoid sin because he is truly righteous and holy on his own because that's how God created him. But we who live in the Spirit, who also drag around the flesh, need to walk in the Spirit (which the new man is happy to do) in order to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

The promises of God are clear. He will heal our carnal hearts but He can do this for us only if we believe it. Jesus told the two blind beggars be it unto as your faith.

I challenge you to come up with a biblical explanation for how followers of Jesus with new hearts can commit sin after losing their fleshly sinful nature. And after you get that one done, explain in a biblical manner how their new hearts can be repaired after they fall victim to sin.

 

[Icyspark]

The act of adultery (or murder, or theft, or +7) is not what denies salvation. It merely reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love. God says, "Those that honor Me, I will honor." Do you know where that quote is found in the Bible? Go look it up sometime. It's very enlightening.

Saying that Jesus quoted from the 10 commandments and trying to apply that to keeping the Saturday sabbath is a very weak argument, especially since neither Jesus nor any of His apostles ever mentioned anything about keeping the Sabbath. They mention every single other commandment except for the Sabbath.

Hi BNR32FAN,

Thanks for your response!

The quote of mine to which you just replied wasn't specifically making that point. Do you agree with the point it is making? (i.e. that adultery, murder, theft, +7, "reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love"?)

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.] Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! Two of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If Paul was including all 10 commandments in that statement then he wouldn’t have specifically told the Colossians that they are not to be judged for not observing the sabbath days.

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Oops. Icy that actually Paul lists two of the Ten Commandments in this passage. Do you suppose that he needs to list off each of the other 8 in order for his readers to rightly conclude that all of the Ten Commandments are included?

Also, in Romans 7:7, 12-13 Paul says he wouldn't've known what sin was if it wasn't for the law. What law? He goes on to identify the law by quoting "You shall not covet." Now seriously, do you suppose he's only affirming (or restating/reenstating the command not to covet? Or in the case above, the commands not to worship idols or commit adultery? He continues by saying, "the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and just and good," thus affirming and confirming that the law from which he is quoting using the present tense "is."

Consider a scenario. I am speaking to an audience which regularly plays board games and of the number of board games available to them the one most often played is Monopoly. If I mention Boardwalk and Park Place all those familiar with board games immediately know I'm referring to two of the 28 properties in the game of Monopoly. I don't need to list all 28 for them to realize, "Ah yes, he's speaking of two of the properties in the game of Monopoly!" My referring to two of the properties does not likewise provide the option to conclude that only those two of the 28 properties remain and that all the other 26 are now discontinued from the game. That'd be absurd, right? They will also not automatically assume that I'm referring to all the Chance and Community Chest cards. Those are also part of the game but they are known to be separate from the property cards.

Regarding Colossians 2, I'd say that there are other sabbaths which would not be included in the "property cards" section, but would fall in the "Chance" or "Community Chest" cards. These other sabbaths would fit Paul's description of "a shadow of things to come" (Col. 2:17). The Sabbath of the Decalogue is a memorial which points backward to the creation event and does not point forward to an ending at the cross. Therefore it's not a shadow of something to come.

I’ve noticed that every time Adventist’s quote Jesus or the apostles preaching to keep one of the 10 commandments they always say that this applies to ALL of the commandments BUT when Paul says we are not to be judged for not observing the sabbath days now all the sudden this doesn’t apply to ALL sabbath days. So they’re not being consistent in their argument. Paul emphasizes on this again in Romans 14.

“Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭4‬-‭6‬, ‭10‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here we see that honoring God on a specific day is not necessary as long as the person observes that day for The Lord.

Just to be clear, the word Sabbath does not appear . Not in this chapter, nor in the entire book of Romans. So I'd suggest that making too much of this verse without the use of the word under scrutiny is uncalled for.

Jesus affirms the Sabbath and it was His regular custom to go to synagogue on His holy day, and we're told to follow Christ's example. Paul certainly followed Christ's example and he too had a custom of going to the synagogue on the Sabbath. In Acts 17:2 we're told Paul observed the Sabbath three times in a row. Paul also says we are to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1).

Are you following the examples of Jesus and Paul?

What about the example of the Gentiles who insisted that Paul preach to them? When did they insist that he preach to them? On the Sabbath!

Acts 13:42​

When the Jews had gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.​

So not only do we have Jesus and Paul observing the Sabbath, we also have the example of Gentiles who wish follow what they heard of Jesus and what the see in Paul.

Furthermore since we’re on the subject Paul also makes it clear that observing the dietary laws is also no longer necessary in both of these passages. Even Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15 that it’s not what goes into the mouth that defiles us but what comes out.

As for your quote from 1 Samuel 2:30 the reason many Christians worship on Sunday is to honor God, that’s precisely why they go to church on Sunday. It’s not as if they go to church on Sunday to defy Him, they could do that by not going at all. It would make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for someone who wants to defy God to go to church at all. So by this you can see the scriptural evidence explaining why some people choose to worship on Sunday rather than Saturday. The whole point of worshiping on Sunday is in honor of Jesus’ resurrection, not out of defiance, that wouldn’t make any sense at all.

I'm not looking to get into a dialog on dietary issues on this thread.

As for honoring God, saying that you're honoring God by observing a day He never said to observe is not something I'd think would be honoring. Think of it like this. Would you be honored if your birthday was on the fourth of July but people who claimed to be your closest friends refused to remember you on your actual birthday but instead insisted on celebrating your "birthday" on a day of their own choosing—say, May the fourth—and on a day in which you were not in attendance. Would these "close friends" be remembering your birthday? Would they be honoring you? Or rather, would they be honoring themselves?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Gary K]

Nope,

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? (1 Co 3:1–4)​

Saved people drag around a sinful flesh. If not, why do saved people sin? What is the source of their sin? Something else besides their sinful nature causes them to sin? They escaped the sinfiul flesh only to become sinners apart from the flesh?

The spirit man created when Jesus came to live in our hearts fulfills the righteous requirements of the law, he is alive because of his true righteousness and holiness, and he does not violate any laws because he is one with God. He does not need to walk in the Spirit to avoid sin because he is truly righteous and holy on his own because that's how God created him. But we who live in the Spirit, who also drag around the flesh, need to walk in the Spirit (which the new man is happy to do) in order to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

I challenge you to come up with a biblical explanation for how followers of Jesus with new hearts can commit sin after losing their fleshly sinful nature. And after you get that one done, explain in a biblical manner how their new hearts can be repaired after they fall victim to sin.

Well, from that post I'm forced to say you don't believe scripture. Ezekiel plainly says the promise is a new heart and a new spirit and that allows us to keep God's statutes. It's basically the same promise Jeremiah was given with the new covenant. It's also basically the same promise given to us by Paul in Galatians 5: 22 and 23. John also gives us the same promise in 1John 3: 5 - 8. You seem to reject both old and new testament promises given to us by God. Is Sunday that important to you?

 

[Bob S]

Gary, 2Cor 3: 6-11 tells me that Jews are no longer under the 10 commandments. How are you able to tell me you read it differently? Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not one jot of the law would end UNTIL He did what He came to do. Jesus ratified the new covenant at Calvary, so how do you rectify that JEWS are still under the laws of the old one? Remember Gentile nations never were under those laws. Where in all of scripture does God put all mankind under the laws of the old covenant? These are important questions and your previous answers were really non answers. I am asking you can back up your belief system with scripture.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Well, from that post I'm forced to say you don't believe scripture. Ezekiel plainly says the promise is a new heart and a new spirit and that allows us to keep God's statues. It's basically the same promise Jeremiah was given with the new covenant. It's also basically the same promise given to us by Paul in Galatians 5: 22 and 23. John also gives us the same promise in 1John 3: 5 - 8.

So I see you don't know where a Christian's sin comes from. But Jesus certainly knows where it comes from:

And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” (Mk 7:20–23)​

If you sin, you can trust Jesus that it came from within.

You seem to reject both old and new testament promises given to us by God.

No, you don't see the difference between the flesh and the spirit inside a believer. That's why you don't understand what I'm saying.

Is Sunday that important to you?

No, that's backwards. You care about what day of the week it is. Every day is the same to me.

 

[Gary K]

Gary, 2Cor 3: 6-11 tells me that Jews are no longer under the 10 commandments. How are you able to tell me you read it differently? Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not one jot of the law would end UNTIL He did what He came to do. Jesus ratified the new covenant at Calvary, so how do you rectify that JEWS are still under the laws of the old one? Remember Gentile nations never were under those laws. Where in all of scripture does God put all mankind under the laws of the old covenant? These are important questions and your previous answers were really non answers. I am asking you can back up your belief system with scripture.

That is not what Jesus said.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Have the heaven and earth passed away yet?

 

[Gary K]

So I see you don't know where a Christian's sin comes from. But Jesus certainly knows where it comes from:

And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” (Mk 7:20–23)​

If you sin, you can trust Jesus that it came from within.

No, you don't see the difference between the flesh and the spirit inside a believer. That's why you don't understand what I'm saying.

No, that's backwards. You care about what day of the week it is. Every day is the same to me.

I know sin comes from within. That's the beauty of the promise of Ezekiel 36: 26 and 27. We are promised a new heart and a right spirit within us. Thus where that which defiles us comes from. Within us.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

A new heart and God's Spirit put within us. You know right where what has been defiling us comes from. God's Spirit can't produce anything that defile us and our hard hearts are removed and softer hearts are given us.

Mat_19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

 

[Bob S]

Hi BNR32FAN,

Thanks for your response!

The quote of mine to which you just replied wasn't specifically making that point. Do you agree with the point it is making? (i.e. that adultery, murder, theft, +7, "reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love"?)

I certainly do not agree. The ten commandments do not mention keeping the greatest command ever given, Love. There are so many sins to which man can succumb. How about divorce, oaths, Eye for eye, witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness and orgies for a start?

Oops. Icy that actually Paul lists two of the Ten Commandments in this passage. Do you suppose that he needs to list off each of the other 8 in order for his readers to rightly conclude that all of the Ten Commandments are included?

Those two are part of the Law of Love. If we really love our fellow man we will keep from doing her/him any harm.

Also, in Romans 7:7, 12-13 Paul says he wouldn't've known what sin was if it wasn't for the law? What law? He goes on to identify the law by quoting "You shall not covet." Now seriously, do you suppose he's only affirming (or restating/reenstating the command not to covet? Or in the case above, the commands not to worship idols or commit adultery? He continues by saying, "the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and just and good," thus affirming and confirming that the law from which he is quoting using the present tense "is."

All laws are good to study and take to heart. Some of the laws God gave to Israel ended at Calvary and are not relevant to anyone today. A good example are all of the Sabbaths given only to Israel.

Just to be clear, the word Sabbath does not appear . Not in this chapter, nor in the entire book of Romans. So I'd suggest that making too much of this verse without the use of the word under scrutiny is uncalled for.

Jesus affirms the Sabbath and it was His regular custom to go to synagogue on His holy day, and we're told to follow Christ's example.

Follow Jesus example would mean keeping Torah feast days all the laws that pertain to the individual.

Are you following the examples of Jesus and Paul?

What about the example of the Gentiles who insisted that Paul preach to them? When did they insist that he preach to them? On the Sabbath!

Insist? That was like Sunday is today. Most people had the day off.

Acts 13:42​

When the Jews had gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.​

So not only do we have Jesus and Paul observing the Sabbath, we also have the example of Gentiles who wish follow what they heard of Jesus and what the see in Paul.

Observing??? Sounds like a figment of your imagination spark.

I'm not looking to get into a dialog on dietary issues on this thread.

As for honoring God, saying that you're honoring God by observing a day He never said to observe is not something I'd think would be honoring. Think of it like this. Would you be honored if your birthday was on the fourth of July but people who claimed to be your closest friends refused to remember you on your actual birthday but instead insisted on celebrating your "birthday" on a day of their own choosing—say, May the fourth—and on a day in which you were not in attendance. Would these "close friends" be remembering your birthday? Would they be honoring you? Or rather, would they be honoring themselves?

The problem is that there is no Sabbath requirement. There hasn't been one for the Israelites since the new covenant took the place of the old one at Calvary. There never was a Sabbath requirement for Gentiles

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I know sin comes from within. That's the beauty of the promise of Ezekiel 36: 26 and 27. We are promised a new heart and a right spirit within us. Thus where that which defiles us comes from. Within us.



A new heart and God's Spirit put within us. You know right where what has been defiling us comes from. God's Spirit can't produce anything that defile us and our hard hearts are removed and softer hearts are given us.

Come on. You can't deny that you still commit sin. Where does that sin come from?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi BNR32FAN,

Thanks for your response!

The quote of mine to which you just replied wasn't specifically making that point. Do you agree with the point it is making? (i.e. that adultery, murder, theft, +7, "reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love"?)





Oops. Icy that actually Paul lists two of the Ten Commandments in this passage. Do you suppose that he needs to list off each of the other 8 in order for his readers to rightly conclude that all of the Ten Commandments are included?

Also, in Romans 7:7, 12-13 Paul says he wouldn't've known what sin was if it wasn't for the law? What law? He goes on to identify the law by quoting "You shall not covet." Now seriously, do you suppose he's only affirming (or restating/reenstating the command not to covet? Or in the case above, the commands not to worship idols or commit adultery? He continues by saying, "the law IS holy, and the commandment holy and just and good," thus affirming and confirming that the law from which he is quoting using the present tense "is."

Consider a scenario. I am speaking to an audience which regularly plays board games and of the number of board games available to them the one most often played is Monopoly. If I mention Boardwalk and Park Place all those familiar with board games immediately know I'm referring to two of the 28 properties in the game of Monopoly. I don't need to list all 28 for them to realize, "Ah yes, he's speaking of Monopoly!" My referring to two of the properties does not likewise provide the option to conclude that only those two of the 28 properties remain and that all the other 26 are now discontinued from the game. That'd be absurd, right? They will also not automatically assume that I'm referring to all the Chance and Community Chest cards. Those are also part of the game but they are known to be separate from the property cards.

Regarding Colossians 2, I'd say that there are other sabbaths which would not be included in the "property cards" section, but would fall in the "Chance" or "Community Chest" cards. These other sabbaths would fit Paul's description of "a shadow of things to come" (Col. 2:17). The Sabbath of the Decalogue is a memorial which points backward to the creation event and does not point forward to an ending at the cross. Therefore it's not a shadow of something to come.





Just to be clear, the word Sabbath does not appear . Not in this chapter, nor in the entire book of Romans. So I'd suggest that making too much of this verse without the use of the word under scrutiny is uncalled for.

Jesus affirms the Sabbath and it was His regular custom to go to synagogue on His holy day, and we're told to follow Christ's example. Paul certainly followed Christ's example and he too had a custom of going to the synagogue on the Sabbath. In Acts 17:2 we're told Paul observed the Sabbath three times in a row. Paul also says we are to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1).

Are you following the examples of Jesus and Paul?

What about the example of the Gentiles who insisted that Paul preach to them? When did they insist that he preach to them? On the Sabbath!

Acts 13:42​

When the Jews had gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.​

So not only do we have Jesus and Paul observing the Sabbath, we also have the example of Gentiles who wish follow what they heard of Jesus and what the see in Paul.





I'm not looking to get into a dialog on dietary issues on this thread.

As for honoring God, saying that you're honoring God by observing a day He never said to observe is not something I'd think would be honoring. Think of it like this. Would you be honored if your birthday was on the fourth of July but people who claimed to be your closest friends refused to remember you on your actual birthday but instead insisted on celebrating your "birthday" on a day of their own choosing—say, May the fourth—and on a day in which you were not in attendance. Would these "close friends" be remembering your birthday? Would they be honoring you? Or rather, would they be honoring themselves?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Jesus kept the entire Mosaic law. Is that the example we’re supposed to follow? So that argument is null. As for Jesus and Paul mentioning some of the 10 commandments you never addressed to issue that Paul specifically said that we are not to be judged for not observing the sabbath days in Colossians 2:16. So when Jesus and Paul mention a few of the 10 commandments you claim that this applies to all the commandments but when Paul says we’re not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath days you don’t include all of the Sabbath days in this verse. So you’re not being consistent in your reasoning.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The quote of mine to which you just replied wasn't specifically making that point. Do you agree with the point it is making? (i.e. that adultery, murder, theft, +7, "reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love"?)

Yes I would agree with that but do you think Christians are going to worship on Sunday because they don’t love God? That doesn’t make any sense at all.

 

[Leaf473]

That is not what Jesus said.



Have the heaven and earth passed away yet?

This is a good question.

Have any of the jots or one tittles of the laws concerning animal sacrifices in any wise passed?

IIf so, which of these conditions have been met?
Till heaven and earth pass
or
till all be fulfilled?

 

[Gary K]

Come on. You can't deny that you still commit sin. Where does that sin come from?

I'm not denying it. But God has completely changed my life. I was a drug using, cursing, swearing, effing this and effing that person for a long time. I was an alcoholic who drank himself sick from the first time I ever tasted alcohol. I was abused physically. emotionally, and sexually as a kid. I was so messed up that on our senior trip when I was in high school a girl I thought was the best looking girl in our high school came up to me and took my hand during a class walk on the beach and after holding hands with her for a couple of minutes I took off running away because I was so afraid she'd get bullied the way I had been all my life. As my wife told me when I trold her the story, I was a real misfit.

I had never had a close friend until a few years ago. Here I was in my mid sixties and never had had a close friend because of what bullying and abuse had done to me. You go through what I went through and you're positive if you let anyone get really close to you they will not like you because your entire immediate family didn't like you. I mean my own brother tried to murder me when I was in the eighth grade because he hated and feared me because he was the one who sexually abused me.


A few years ago God directly answered my prayer one day as I had been sitting one afternoon with the tears streaming down my face as I was wondering why everyone in my family had hated me. For some reason I had never taken that pain to God before but I started asking Him why He answered my prayer and revealed to me why. His answer made my entire life make sense in a moment and it never had before. I am now able to have close friends. I'm no longer afraid to share who I am.

God has performed many miracles in my life. He's saved my life multiple times and restored my mind after I tried my best to destroy it, deliberately. Why? Because the pain of being hated by my family hurt so bad that I couldn't handle life any more. I started doing that the year I graduated from high school. It continued until I was so burnt out I couldn't hold down a job and so full of anxiety I could barely breathe at times as I lost my cookies on acid one night..

So I know whereof I speask when I say God works miracle3s in our lives through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe He can make me holy in the here and now because of all the miraculous changes He's made in my life up to this point.

Today I understand why God allowed me to go through what I did. I'm the only kid in our family who loves God. He also performed all those miracles in my life so that I could tell others about His ability to change lives and save people from themselves as sin is very destructive. It makes us desire to destroy ourselves. The devil hates us because we were created in the image of God and the very last thing he wants us to know and believe is that God is infinitely more powerful than sin. I am extremely thankful today for what I went through as it gives me the ability to witness for God as to His power to change lives and His love for all of us including His enemies. He wants to save all of us but most people will not allow Him to.

I went so far as to ask the devil into my life. God saved me grom that too. He stopped the devil when he came to claim me after I was rebaptised as I was raised in a religious, but not Christian home.

God can work miracles of regeneration in all of our lives as His word has creative power, He spoke our world into existance and His word can recreare us back into His image the same way He created us to be. It jujst requires us to desire it and to believe it's possible. Without faith it is impossible yo please God and Jesus told us that it will be done to us according to our faith. So if you're tired of sinning ask Him, believing. to change your life. Just ask Him hoping He will and He will begin working miracles in your life. I know it works because at the depths of my despair caused by my own deliberate destruction of myself I used to walk around early in the morning and ask if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was real and that if He was would He show me He was. He did. And He will do it for anyone who asks. If He could do it for me, a hopeless basket case, He can do it for anyone.

All it requires from those people is the desire to change for the better aand the willingness to place themselves in His care and keeping. The same God who walked this earth and healed every sick. diseased, and demon possessed person in the villages He passed through will heal them too. He can bring us back to spiritual life just as surely as He brought the widow of Nain's son and Lazarus back to life.

 

[Gary K]

This is a good question.

Have any of the jots or one tittles of the laws concerning animal sacrifices in any wise passed?

IIf so, which of these conditions have been met?
Till heaven and earth pass
or
till all be fulfilled?

That is a really odd question. Why would you point to laws designed to pass away? You're implying that God's eternal law is going to stop being in existence when the Bible tells us it is not.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[Leaf473]

That is a really odd question. Why would you point to laws designed to pass away?

Because Jesus said

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:18 - King James Version

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

www.biblegateway.com

Do you believe that when Jesus says the law or the prophets he is referring to just some of the law?

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:17 - King James Version

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

www.biblegateway.com

You're implying that God's eternal law is going to stop being in existence when the Bible tells us it is not.