Works Relation to Salvation

[Gary K]

Accordingly to this logic you would be required to keep the entire Torah which would also require circumcision and sin offerings. This is why you can’t quote the OT in reference to the requirements for salvation under the New Covenant.

I just have to shake my head at this kind of logic. The sacrificial system came to an end when Christ did on the cross. The proof of this follows.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

 

[Gary K]

Amen, I owe Him everything as well.

Then why not keep the Sabbath He gave us?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I just have to shake my head at this kind of logic. The sacrificial system came to an end when Christ did on the cross. The proof of this follows.

And the dietary laws and sabbath days also came to an end. That’s my point.

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭4‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then why not keep the Sabbath He gave us?

Because I often have to work on Saturday. Thankfully since we now have freedom in Christ I’m no longer restricted to honoring Him on a certain day.

 

[Leaf473]

Because I often have to work on Saturday. Thankfully since we now have freedom in Christ I’m no longer restricted to honoring Him on a certain day.

Indeed, we would honor him on all days, thus observing all days alike

 

[Gary K]

And the dietary laws and sabbath days also came to an end. That’s my point.

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭4‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So the need for health is at an end?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So the need for health is at an end?

Pork isn’t any unhealthier than beef and potato chips, pizza, pasta, doughnuts, butter, salt, white bread, french fries, sodas, coffee, candy, cakes, ice cream, whole milk, and about a thousand other foods out there aren’t prohibited according to the dietary laws and are considered to be unhealthy. In any case the health factor is irrelevant because we’re talking about what the Bible forbids us to eat not nutritional value brother.

 

[Gary K]

Pork isn’t any unhealthier than beef and potato chips, pizza, pasta, doughnuts, butter, salt, white bread, french fries, sodas, coffee, candy, cakes, ice cream, whole milk, and about a thousand other foods out there aren’t prohibited according to the dietary laws and are considered to be unhealthy. In any case the health factor is irrelevant because we’re talking about what the Bible forbids us to eat not nutritional value brother.

You are greatly mistaken in that.

I was an HVAC/R service tech for years and one of my bosses had an account that was a pork slaughtering operation. Pork is so diseased and so full of parasites that this company had to throw out all their frozen pork if the temps in their drive in freezer went above -20 for 30 minutes. That's federal regulation. That regulation doesn't apply to grocery stores as I've also serviced those accounts and they are not required to toss out their pork if their refrigeration goes down. It's a corrupt system and does not protect people like it's supposed to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are greatly mistaken in that.

I was an HVAC/R service tech for years and one of my bosses had an account that was a pork slaughtering operation. Pork is so diseased and so full of parasites that this company had to throw out all their frozen pork if the temps in their drive in freezer went above -20 for 30 minutes. That's federal regulation. That regulation doesn't apply to grocery stores as I've also serviced those accounts and they are not required to toss out their pork if their refrigeration goes down. It's a corrupt system and does not protect people like it's supposed to.

Again this is completely irrelevant since any meat no matter what animal it came from is severely unhealthy if it’s not kept at the proper storing temperature. We’re not talking about foods kept at improper temperatures we’re talking about how unhealthy certain foods are.

 

[Gary K]

Again this is completely irrelevant since any meat no matter what animal it came from is severely unhealthy if it’s not kept at the proper storing temperature. We’re not talking about foods kept at improper temperatures we’re talking about how unhealthy certain foods are.

Really? The fact that pork production is the most highly regulated meat industry in the US is also meaningless to you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Really? The fact that pork production is the most highly regulated meat industry in the US is also meaningless to you?

It’s irrelevant to the conversation. We’re not talking about eating rotten meat.

 

[Gary K]

It’s irrelevant to the conversation. We’re not talking about eating rotten meat.

We're talking aout eating diseased meat full of parasites; You like the idea of eating that? Be my guest. I don't like the idea of eating trichinosis worms and that is just one of the parasites in it. One of them has no known way of killing it.

Parasites associated with pork and pork products - PubMed

Three parasites pose a public health risk from the ingestion of raw or undercooked pork, namely: Trichinella spiralis, Taenia solium and Toxoplasma gondii. Inspection procedures, when practised according to prescribed methods, are effective in eliminating the majority of risks from T. spiralis...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BNR32FAN]

We're talking aout eating diseased meat full of parasites; You like the idea of eating that? Be my guest. I don't like the idea of eating trichinosis worms and that is just one of the parasites in it.

Parasites associated with pork and pork products - PubMed

Three parasites pose a public health risk from the ingestion of raw or undercooked pork, namely: Trichinella spiralis, Taenia solium and Toxoplasma gondii. Inspection procedures, when practised according to prescribed methods, are effective in eliminating the majority of risks from T. spiralis...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do you enjoy eating Salmonella, Staphylococcus aureus, Campylobacter jejuni, Listeria monocytogenes, and Escherichia coli? These are all found in beef & chicken. Again this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. The whole point of this discussion is, is it forbidden in the scriptures? I’ve quoted the scriptures that specifically state that no food is forbidden unless you’ve been informed that it was offered to idols. Do you have any scriptural evidence that refutes this that was written AFTER the verses I quoted?

 

[Gary K]

Do you enjoy eating Salmonella, Staphylococcus aureus, Campylobacter jejuni, Listeria monocytogenes, and Escherichia coli? These are all found in beef & chicken. Again this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. The whole point of this discussion is, is it forbidden in the scriptures? I’ve quoted the scriptures that specifically state that no food is forbidden unless you’ve been informed that it was offered to idols. Do you have any scriptural evidence that refutes this that was written AFTER the verses I quoted?

You misunderstand the scriptures but it's pretty plain from your attitude that it's not much use to discuss this with you.

BTW, I grew up a vegetarian and just became a vegan. I've never had any problem with any kind of e coli as I rarely eat out and when I do it is cooked food. Speaking of which we went to a Mexican restaurant Sunday and had a burrito wih cactus in it. It's one of the tastiest food I have ever eaten. Too bad you won't eat it.

 

[Bob S]

You need to use Strong's concorance and look up the Greek word translated as man. It means human being.

Hi Gary, thanks. Jesus scriptural statement about who the Sabbath was made for is not a command to keep it. As far as we all know only those that came out of bondage in Egypt were ever asked by God to observe a day. Why some feel obligated to observe a day when never asked to do so by God is a mystery to me. Are you aware that the ten commandments WERE some of the words of the Sinai covenant? Are you aware that the Sinai covenant ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant at Calvary?

 

[Gary K]

Hi Gary, thanks. Jesus scriptural statement about who the Sabbath was made for is not a command to keep it. As far as we all know only those that came out of bondage in Egypt were ever asked by God to observe a day. Why some feel obligated to observe a day when never asked to do so by God is a mystery to me. Are you aware that the ten commandments WERE some of the words of the Sinai covenant? Are you aware that the Sinai covenant ended when Jesus ratified the new covenant at Calvary?

No. There is nothing in the Bible that says that. The only thing that changed was the sacrificial system s9ignified by the rent veil between the holy and most holy places in the temple.

 

[Guojing]

The only thing that changed was the sacrificial system s9ignified by the rent veil between the holy and most holy places in the temple.

If this is really true, why is it that animal sacrifices continue to be done by James et al in Acts 21?

Someone forgot to tell them?

 

[Bob S]

No. There is nothing in the Bible that says that. The only thing that changed was the sacrificial system s9ignified by the rent veil between the holy and most holy places in the temple.

Then why are you not telling us that we are required to do all of the other things the old covenant laws required like observing the feast days? Why do you single out just the weekly Sabbath that was given only to Israel? Have you studied 2Cor 3:6-11 where it tells us that the ten commandments have ended and now we all have the Holy Spirit as our guide? And BNR has quoted Col 2:16-17 to you many times and it seems to fly over your head. And what about Matt 5 where Jesus told the Jews that not even one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL is accomplished yet you tell us that the Levitical system of sacrifice has ended, but nothing else. How could that happen when Jesus made it so plain that it could not happen until ALL was accomplished. Could it be that the word "fulfill" really means bring to an end, Did Jesus do everything He came to do? Did he bring an end to the old covenant with its myriad of laws? Why did Jesus tell us in John 15 verses 9-14 that He kept the Torah and asked us to love others as He loves us? And why did John in 1Jn 3 write that we belong to the truth if we believe in Jesus an love others as He taught?

Could it be you too have a lot to learn and unlearn. I have and I know it does not come easy, but it is so rewarding once we know the real truth.

 

[Gary K]

If this is really true, why is it that animal sacrifices continue to be done by James et al in Acts 21?

Someone forgot to tell them?

There is nothing in Acts 21 that comes close to saying James offered an animal sacrifice. There is a statement to the effect they made an offering, but there is nothing in the Bible that equates an offering with a sacrifice. Two different words. Two different meanings.

 

[Guojing]

There is nothing in Acts 21 that comes close to saying James offered an animal sacrifice. There is a statement to the effect they made an offering, but there is nothing in the Bible that equates an offering with a sacrifice. Two different words. Two different meanings.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
=====

James told Paul to keep the Law, including physical circumcision, and you believe he excused animal sacrifices from that?

Who is the one arguing from silence here?