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You say, "I know this", but I don't think we agree. Do you yourself now have "flesh" in you that "lusts against the Spirit"? Yes or no?I know this, but what steps do we need to take to go from the flesh to being born of the spirit. You keep quoting the end result, but not the solution to get there.
This doesn't answer the question- my question was how do we get from walking in the flesh (sin) to walking in the Spirit according to God's Word. You keep quoting the end result, but don't seem to think we actual need to do anything to get there other than believing. The devil believes, but he will not be in God's eternal kingdom. Jesus tells us in His own Words not all who says Lord Lord (believers) will be in His Kingdom. Mat 7:21-23You say, "I know this", but I don't think we agree. Do you yourself now have "flesh" in you that "lusts against the Spirit"? Yes or no?
I'll try again, leaving you out of it. Do you understand that after Jesus comes to live in a person's heart that he/she must still contend with his/her own flesh that "lusts against the Spirit"? I don't understand why you don't want to answer that question.This doesn't answer the question- my question was how do we get from walking in the flesh (sin) to walking in the Spirit according to God's Word. You keep quoting the end result, but don't seem to think we actual need to do anything to get there other than believing. The devil believes, but he will not be in God's eternal kingdom. Jesus tells us in His own Words not all who says Lord Lord (believers) will be in His Kingdom. Mat 7:21-23
Lets leave what I do or you do out of the conversation God knows what we all do, we can't hide anything from Him.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.
I asked you the question first, you keep getting to the end result, but not showing the steps how we get Jesus to live in our hearts, not walking in the flesh but walking in His Spirit without sin. It's a process and God's Word shows what the process is, we don't get there by just believing the promises, but doing our own thing, sinning daily without any consequences or need for sanctification in Jesus Christ -free from the bondage of sin and free walking in Christ in obedience to Him. It's a process and many never get past the first step of believing and think that's all there is to it despite Jesus rejecting this, that we don't have to do God's will and can walk in lawlessness.I'll try again, leaving you out of it. Do you understand that after Jesus comes to live in a person's heart that he/she must still contend with his/her own flesh that "lusts against the Spirit"? I don't understand why you don't want to answer that question.
I see you added more- so all we need to do is believe, but we can still sin and not obey His commandments?I'll try again, leaving you out of it. Do you understand that after Jesus comes to live in a person's heart that he/she must still contend with his/her own flesh that "lusts against the Spirit"? I don't understand why you don't want to answer that question.
If you need an answer from me before you provide an answer to me, then the steps (in reverse order) are here:
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
[The New King James Version (Ro 10:10–15). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]
In chronological order, it is this:
God sends preachers to preach the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, people hear about Jesus who is the Savior, people believe in Him, people call on Him to save them, and Jesus saves everyone who calls on Him. Those are the steps.
From John 14, we see a different perspective, but very similar:
Jesus said (quoting from memory): No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws them. Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me. And anyone who comes to m I will in no way cast out.
God is at work in every salvation experience. No one is saved without His involvement. And Jesus does the saving when people hear God, believe God is telling them th truth, and go to Jesus as God instructs. Jesus will in no way cast him out.
I answered your question, I see you have additional questions, but before I answer your additional questions, please answer my question.I see you added more- so all we need to do is believe, but we can still sin and not obey His commandments?
I answered your question, I see you have additional questions, but before I answer your additional questions, please answer my question.
The Spirit does not live with someone who is disobedient to Him according to scripture.Do you understand that after Jesus comes to live in a person's heart that he/she must still contend with his/her own flesh that "lusts against the Spirit"
Thank you for the answer. I do have a follow-up question if you will indulge me.The Spirit does not live with someone who is disobedient to Him according to scripture.
The Spirit is given to convict of us sin John 16:8, if we have not seared the Spirit and stopped listening to His voice calling us out of rebellion and disobedience to Him Hebrews 3:7-8
The Spirit is given to guide us in all Truth, which is how we are sanctified, the Truth of God's Word John 17:17
Jesus gives us the Spirit to help us obey Him but it requires our cooperation and is conditional
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
The Spirit is given to those who obey
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
So as we can see through scripture, it takes more than just believing saying Lord Lord, love and faith to Jesus is a call to action.
So no, I don't believe we can be in the flesh and walk in Jesus because we are told those in the flesh cannot please Him Romans 8:8 and those who lack love and faith do not keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31
I also believe that we can overcome sin through Jesus Christ. His commandments are not meant to be burdensome 1 John 5:3 but meant to bless us and give us peace Isa 48:18
So can we be in Christ while being hostile to God's law? No. Belief is the first step, and true belief means trusting and doing God's Word, not just hearing it.
It means one has gained victory over sin and Christ dwells in our hearts. This is the same question you keep asking, its the end result, where we want to be and can get there through Jesus Christ. Belief is the first step, but we shouldn't stop there, we need to be doers of God's Word, not just hearers James 1:22 Rev 22:14.Thank you for the answer. I do have a follow-up question if you will indulge me.
Romans 8:10 - "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
What does it mean that, "If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin"?
I didn't ask about the victory part of the sentence (the part about the Spirit being life because of righteousness). I asked about the death of the body due to it's sin. What does that part mean?It means one has gained victory over sin and Christ dwells in our hearts. This is the same question you keep asking, its the end result, where we want to be and can get there through Jesus Christ. Belief is the first step, but we shouldn't stop there, we need to be doers of God's Word, not just hearers James 1:22 Rev 22:14.
There connected- death of sin means gaining victory over sin. Not sure why one would see this differently. If we are breaking God's law and sinning, it means we are not at this stage and we are still a slave to sin. Thats doesn't mean if we slip and fall we don't have an Advocate and High Priest we can go to, but our daily walk should not be living in sin.I didn't ask about the victory part of the sentence (the part about the Spirit being life because of righteousness). I asked about the death of the body due to it's sin. What does that part mean?
I think I see now. You're saying sin is dead, but the righteous spirit is alive, both because Jesus lives inside. Is that right?There connected- death of sin means gaining victory over sin. Not sure why one would see this differently. If we are breaking God's law and sinning, it means we are not at this stage and we are still a slave to sin.
Yes, through Christ, we can gain victory over sin. God's law, just shows us our sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 so we can measure it and so we can depend on God's righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own. The law just shows us our sin, Jesus gives us the solution. But we can't be perpetually sinning and living in Christ. He will work on us though His Spirit to convict us of sin, if we haven't closed ourselves off to His correction. Sadly, people believe we can sin (break God's law) and walk with Him, but its not what the scripture says. Romans 8:7-8 His Spirit is given so we can keep His commandments and requires our cooperation and given to those who obey Acts 5:32. It's a process, but one we can get there with a close relationship and daily walk with Christ, daily taking up our cross and following Him.I think I see now. You're saying sin is dead, but the righteous spirit is alive, both because Jesus lives inside. Is that right?
Now I'm confused. You said sin was dead. Now you say the Spirit convicts us of sin. Is sin dead, or is it still there? I said it was there, but you accuse me of embracing sin when I say that.Yes, through Christ, we can gain victory over sin. God's law, just shows us our sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 so we can measure it and so we can depend on God's righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own. The law just shows us our sin, Jesus gives us the solution. But we can't be perpetually sinning and living in Christ. He will work on us though His Spirit to convict us of sin, if we haven't closed ourselves off to His correction. Sadly, people believe we can sin (break God's law) and walk with Him, but its not what the scripture says. Romans 8:7-8 His Spirit is given so we can keep His commandments and requires our cooperation and given to those who obey Acts 5:32. It's a process, but one we can get there with a close relationship and daily walk with Christ, daily taking up our cross and following Him.
Sin being dead is the goal- living with Christ. I have already explained the process in the post belowNow I'm confused. You said sin was dead. Now you say the Spirit convicts us of sin. Is sin dead, or is it still there? I said it was there, but you accuse me of embracing sin when I say that.
Yes, this takes us back to where we started. There's no sense in going through it again.Sin being dead is the goal- living with Christ. I have already explained the process in the post below
Works Relation to Salvation
I know this, but what steps do we need to take to go from the flesh to being born of the spirit. You keep quoting the end result, but not the solution to get there. You say, "I know this", but I don't think we agree. Do you yourself now have "flesh" in you that "lusts against the Spirit"? Yes...www.christianforums.com
I'm not sure if you're reading my post you are replying to in context., It does not say living in Christ there is sin. A righteous man may slip and fall and sin, but he will get himself back up. Scripture gives us the process on what to do when this happens.
Anyway, I need to run. Take care,
What we have here is a failure to communicate. If we agree that all men are sinners in need of a Savior, and that salvation is available to all only on the basis of Christ's sacrifice for our sins, then we agree on the main thing. This doesn't have much to do with the op ("works relation to salvation"), but maybe I misjudged the situation.
I could argue all of your points and your scriptural "proofs", but Paul's letter to the Galatians makes anything I could argue would probably go right over your head.The definition that I used is the only one that the NAS Greek Lexicon listed being specifically in regard to the context of fulfilling the law, it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next after he said he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses like Galatians 5:14, Galatians 6:2, and Romans 15:18-19 use the term, it fits with how other Jewish writings use the term, it fits with the concept of someone fulfilling their marriage vows by correctly doing what they vowed to do, and it even fits with the definitions #1-3 that you listed.
On the other hand, definition #4 is contrary to Jesus saying that he came not to abolish the law, it is contrary to Jesus warning against relaxing the least part of the law or teaching others to do that, it is contrary to what Jesus proceeded to do next after he said that he came to fulfill the law as well, it is contrary to what Jesus taught by word and by example throughout the rest of his ministry, it is contrary to how other verses like Galatians 5:14, Galatians 6:2, and Romans 15:18-19 use the term, it is contrary to verses like Romans 3:31, which says that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather it upholds it and Psalms 119:160, which says that all of God's righteous laws are eternal, it is contrary to how other Jewish writings use the term, and there is nothing else in the Bible that says anything along the lines that fulfilling the Mosaic Law causes the Mosaic Covenant to end.
So you'll need to provide good reason for rejecting the definition I listed in favor of using #4.
Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven disappear and all is accomplished, neither of which has happened yet, both of which refer to end times (Revelation 22:1) or are ways of saying that it is never going to happen.
The Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of the nature of God as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), and this is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of God's nature. For example, our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, we are expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. The only way that eternal instructions for how to testify about God's eternal goodness can be ended is if God is no longer eternally good, and the same is true of other aspects of God's nature.
So the set of laws that the God of Israel has given paint is a picture of His nature and serve as an identity marker. For example, if the God of Israel had instead commanded His people to commit adultery, then that would paint a very different picture of His nature and someone who followed a God who commanded that would not be following a God with the same identity as the God of Israel. So if the New Covenant were made with a different set of laws that the Mosaic Law, then it would be made with a different God with a different nature than that of the God of Israel, but it in reality it is made with the same God with the same nature and therefore the same Mosaic Law for how to testify about His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). In 1 Peter 1:16, we are instructed to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes keeping His Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3), so someone who refuses to obey His laws for how to be holy as He is holy is living in a way that testifies that the God that they follow is not holy, who therefore that their God does not have the same identity as the God of Israel.
The Mosaic Covenant teaching to love each other and believe in Jesus, so that is not a new plan. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, so that is part of his identify, and we should live in a way that testifies about the nature of who he is by keeping the Sabbath holy in obedience to God's command in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow. When we do good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are expressing our love for God's goodness, and by being holy as God is holy, we are expressing our love for God's holiness, so everything that the God of Israel has chosen to command was specially commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love a different aspect of His nature, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, and we can't love God by refusing to obey His instructions for how to love Him. Likewise, we can't believe in Jesus by refusing to obey God's instructions for how to believe in him, or in other words, we can't believe in God's word made flesh by refusing to obey God's word. We can't believe in Jesus by rejecting part of his identity.
In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with the Israelites, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33 Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Gentiles are able to become followers of the God of Israel by following His law. All of God's covenants are in complete accordance with each other and the Mosaic Covenant is in accordance with the promise made as part of the Abrahamic Covenant. The obligation of Gentiles to refrain from sin is not dependent upon being part of a particular covenant is is dependent on God's sovereignty, and God has revealed what sin is through the Mosaic Law (Romans 3:20).
The you should agree that we are under the Law of Moses, but you argue against doing that, so you don't believe what he said.
If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit theft, murder, Idolatry, adultery, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else commanded in the Mosaic Law. Though ultimately God is sovereign, so someone would still obligated to obey God even if they don't love Him or their neighbor.
The Mosaic Law is the Royal Law of Love, so you are contradicting yourself. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes laws that you've personally decided are ceremonial. Likewise, in 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which as terms uses to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to obey the instructions that God gave to Israel for how to fulfill those roles. It is contradictory for a Gentiles to want to live as part of a holy nation while not wanting to follow God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.
If we do not obey God's laws, then we are sinning and are acting immorally.
All of God's laws inherently deal with morality and for you to claim that some of God's laws do not deal with morality is to claim that God made an error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws. You personally deciding that someone of God's laws are in regard to civil duties, health, or ceremonies does not mean that they do not also deal with morality. For example, we have a civil duty to refrain from committing rape, but that is also a moral duty.
Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds yet, yet instead of upholding it, you seek to abolish it, so do you think that Paul lied? In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law.
Again, I don't see any grounds for thinking that what Jesus commanded was contrary to what the Father has commanded, but rather Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus obeyed the Father's commands and he was not hypocritically suggesting that we should only do as he said, but not as he did.
Do you agree or disagree that we should follow what Psalms 119:142 says is truth? Jesus embodied what Psalms 119:142 says is truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law (John 14:6) and the way to follow the truth, to believe in Him, and to love like he commanded is not by refusing to follow his example.
In Exodus 12:48, a Gentile was required to become circumcised in order to eat of the Passover lamb.
Yes, I understand that. But I'm asking you what meaning you are taking away from what the Bible says
Yes, however they may also have overlapping meaning. Consider the English phrase "rules and regulations". What's the difference?
There is a difference in usage, but a lot of overlap in meaning.
Do the scriptures say that the entire law is divided up into just those four categories?
They are different in that they are given by different authorities and cover different geographical areas. But they are the same in that they govern behavior.
Several people have tried, but it usually breaks down and they stop answering. From my perspective, they stop answering when the questions get difficult.
Here's a link to an example.
Sounds great!
Whatever seems good to you
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