Word-Faith?

[usadingo]

huh? Have you not read any or our posts? The majority at the crusifiction said, "crucify Him" . . .does that mean the majority was correct? Majority means nothing in the Kingdom of God.

Have I been reading an or our posts? I've read all of our posts.
And no, majority doesn't always rule. But when studying something, when 99% of information coming up says something is bad, with reasons why, I at least have to consider it.

If a majority of road signs say "bridge out" and I continue driving, I have a feeling majority would in fact, rule.

 

[usadingo]

Dingo,

I believe it was didaskalos who suggested that you go to the source for your information. Not someone else's version of what they said, but get it for yourself.

If I'm asking someone a question, why should I have to be the one to find it out? I'm asking that person. Either way, I mentioned that I listen to these so-called teachers daily on the radio, watch their programs on TV, and have even read some of their books. I, indeed, have checked them out first hand.

There is one particular "exposer" who wrote a book supposedly exposing someone I personally knew. This person artfully even enclude page numbers and supposed quotations and of course his review of what was being said.

Well, I happend to have said book and began to compare them side by side. Each page referred to and each quote referred to I compared.

Shock* The exposer did not seem to have a clear understanding of quoting. I found only parts of statements quoted. . .changing of course the REAL statement.

Going on 2nd hand information is going according to gossip. Get it first hand dingo.

And yet, as I said, no one posts this counter-arguement. They let the information slide as fact. You think if it was so wrong, someone would speak up.

I'm a Bible supporter. I believe what Jesus said. . .all of it. . .not just the part that my circumstances fit in to. To me WOF is standing on the Word in the Faith that He's given all of us. I have faith that God said what He meant and meant what He said.

Same here. Of coure, not only do I believe what Jesus said, but I believe everything that's included in the Bible. But somehow we disagree. The thing is, with objective facts, someone has to be right, and someone has to be wrong.

No matter what group of Chrisitians we are part of there are going to be those who take things off in a direction we don't necessarily agree with. . .but that does not mean we lump it all together and throw the whole thing out, bad and good. . .all because we don't like the way a particular person portrays it.

Right. We are called to examine those people, and state the truth.
All I know is, I look at things. I consider both bad and good. I avoid the bad, and go towards the good. I don't just leave it there though. I do my best to expose the bad, so that those trapped in it may strive for what is good. Why? Because I'm following the example of a man named Jesus.

 

[usadingo]

Kenyon is NOT Christian Science! You can see it by simply READING HIA DOCTRINE AND STATEMENT OF FAITH. He out right says CHRISTIAN SCIENCE IS WRONG.

Gets your facts right.

I never said he was. I stated that he studied Metaphysics, and he was influenced by such groups.

Get your facts right.

 

[usadingo]

Well... ya, you do! You are the one being held accountable for the words that come out of your mouth (or post).

Come on usadingo...you are smarter than that! I don't think we should elevate the slander and gossip of McConnell to the same level as inspired scriptures.

If we are to play that game, then there are to be no use of commentaries, Faith supporters (except the very teachers themselves,) or stories of anyone other than ourselves. Apparently everything else is someone else's opinion.

I'm simply saying, here is what is said about _____. If I'm wrong, show me. And again, "showing" is not "disagreeing." Disagreeing is the first step. Showing is the second. Showing involves evidence.

I'll always find it odd though that the Word of Faith movement does not speak out against those that disagree with them. Well, I should say with evidence to back them up. "They used misquotes, spliced tapes, and took things out of context" is the common response. That's the disagreeing part. I've yet to see the "showing" part that's actually legit.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Show us that Kenyon studied this.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If we are to play that game, then there are to be no use of commentaries, Faith supporters (except the very teachers themselves,) or stories of anyone other than ourselves. Apparently everything else is someone else's opinion.

I'm simply saying, here is what is said about _____. If I'm wrong, show me. And again, "showing" is not "disagreeing." Disagreeing is the first step. Showing is the second. Showing involves evidence.

I'll always find it odd though that the Word of Faith movement does not speak out against those that disagree with them. Well, I should say with evidence to back them up. "They used misquotes, spliced tapes, and took things out of context" is the common response. That's the disagreeing part. I've yet to see the "showing" part that's actually legit.

Gee bro, I think you must be talking to yourself. I mean, you (not we) are the one claiming this and that about Kenyon and wof. I think the burden of proof would be on you, not us. What we believe has been inspected and scutinized for a number of years now. We have several good thread on these boards with hundreds of posts by wof folks. You will not find any of the mystical stuff taught by us... rather you will find a stalward and strong insistance that the Word of God is truth, and that those who believe it recieve those things He has promised. I do not see that as "mystical". It is "faithical". That is taking God at His word. That is what He requires us to do.
But I do thank you for the time and effort you take in presenting you views. I hope we do not come across to strong, and please do not misinterpret our zeal as anger or meanness. We have found a wonderful loving savior and want the world to know His goodness and mercy. God bless usadingo!

 

[LeeS]

And yet, as I said, no one posts this counter-arguement. They let the information slide as fact. You think if it was so wrong, someone would speak up.

Yes, someone has!

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/55fatlflaws.html
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com

http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/heartstext/chap11.htm

 

[Yitzchak]

What is the Word-Faith movement?  Heard it mentioned the other day and not sure what it is.

You sure got a large response to this question in this thread. Whether critic or supporter, I think all can agree that the word of faith movement has had a large impact.
Word of Faith is a branch of christianity which is charasmatic and grew out of revivals which I think orginated in the 1970's ( I would have to check the dates to be sure) Benny Hinn is the most well known recently to be assoiaciated witht he movement but in actuality it is more of a grass roots movement which was around long before Benny Hinn became big.
Kennith Hagin would be a better source to read or perhaps kenneth Copeland. because they are teachers within the movement and both prolific authors also. You will get a more accurate explanation of the movement by reading their writings than reading a critic who takes out of context what is taught.
Word of faith to my understanding is an emphasis on speaking words of faith based on the scripture for practical problems in our lives. As I understand it a person takes a verse which applies to a specific situation in their life and speaks that word "over"/"about" their situation asking in faith for the situation to change and become instead what their faith says it will be.
Many in the movement have focused on physical healing and financial prosperity but those are just a few of the things followers of word of faith pray about and "claim" scripture over.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yes, someone has!

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/55fatlflaws.html
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com

http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/heartstext/chap11.htm

Fantastic! I had the 55 flaws page a number of years ago, but lost it. Thanks for giving it back to me... as well as these other great links!!!

 

[Yitzchak]

One of my former pastors once made the statement that he didn't like wirtten prayers because he assoiaciated them with dead ritual. But then in the course of time he realised that we sing choruses that are written songs and we read written prayers and proclaimations of faith from the bible itself.
It is not the fact of whther it is spontaneous in the sense of something new and our own which makes something "spiritual" or real. It is what we put into it from our hearts.
My understanding of the word of faith movement gained from speaking to those within it is that the real root of the appeal to them is this fact. The bible has become a living book for them and not just dead ritual.
certainly there is plenty of room for doctirnal debate as there always has been in every revival movement but one thing is clear to me. Many of the people I have interacted with who are word of faith are very zealous for the word of God and treat the bible as a living word and not just as dead ritual.
I suppose just like past liturgies or hymns, there is always the danger of "vain repetitions" even as what happened in jesus day with some of the pharisees. However , my opinion is that people in the word of faith movement are seeking to interact with God in a real way and although i myself am not word of faith I will not join with the critics.
The entire charasmatic movement is a revival movement that came out of many denominations and has as a result sometimes a convaluded doctrine (in my observation) but on the main point of applying the scripture as a living word to situations in out lives. Including finances and health but not limited to those is soemthing I find myself in agreement with.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

...Many in the movement have focused on physical healing and financial prosperity but those are just a few of the things followers of word of faith pray about and "claim" scripture over....

This is probably the popular conception of WOF. But if you read the writings of Kenyon, Copeland, and Hagin... all of them, not just the books about healing and prosperity, you will find a different picture emerge.
Some of the topics in their writings are:

• 
  *Fellowshipping the Father
  *Jesus Christ as the head of the body of Christ ("in Christ")
  *Overcoming the world by the spirit of Christ in us
  *Walking in the Spirit
  *Walking in the light of the Word

As with the Charismatics and the topic of tongues, it is not that they dwell on tongues all the time, it is just that tongues is always the topic that gets thrown up to them. We do not always mean to dwell on prosperity and healing, these are just the topics that always get thrown up to us.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

One of my former pastors once made the statement that he didn't like wirtten prayers because he assoiaciated them with dead ritual. But then in the course of time he realised that we sing choruses that are written songs and we read written prayers and proclaimations of faith from the bible itself.
It is not the fact of whther it is spontaneous in the sense of something new and our own which makes something "spiritual" or real. It is what we put into it from our hearts.
My understanding of the word of faith movement gained from speaking to those within it is that the real root of the appeal to them is this fact. The bible has become a living book for them and not just dead ritual.
certainly there is plenty of room for doctirnal debate as there always has been in every revival movement but one thing is clear to me. Many of the people I have interacted with who are word of faith are very zealous for the word of God and treat the bible as a living word and not just as dead ritual.
I suppose just like past liturgies or hymns, there is always the danger of "vain repetitions" even as what happened in jesus day with some of the pharisees. However , my opinion is that people in the word of faith movement are seeking to interact with God in a real way and although i myself am not word of faith I will not join with the critics.
The entire charasmatic movement is a revival movement that came out of many denominations and has as a result sometimes a convaluded doctrine (in my observation) but on the main point of applying the scripture as a living word to situations in out lives. Including finances and health but not limited to those is soemthing I find myself in agreement with.

Very well said Yitzchak. I'm kinda in the same place. . .I don't consider myself WOF but yet have alot of the same thoughts on things. . .and I gleaned these things from my own private time with the Lord and His Word.

Speaking what God speaks and only what God speaks. . .all other words are death.

 

[usadingo]

Yes, someone has!

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/55fatlflaws.html
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com

http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/heartstext/chap11.htm

I must say, those sight are something. However, they do something just as bad as missquoting. And that's missunderstanding.
By the way, Hank Hanegraaff is not the only person who has spoken out against the faith movement. These sights really need to focus on the claims against them, and not just trying to prove Hank wrong.

 

[usadingo]

This is probably the popular conception of WOF. But if you read the writings of Kenyon, Copeland, and Hagin... all of them, not just the books about healing and prosperity, you will find a different picture emerge.

Speaking of missconceptions...
To those, like me, who are not part of the Word of Faith movement, we're just as labeled. Here are the big one's I get...

1. I don't believe in healings
-No, I do. I just don't believe they are guarenteed while on this earth. I don't believe that just because someone is sick, it's because of sin. It may be, but there are scientific facts like if you drink contaminated water, you're more likely to get sick.
God still heals people, but it's up to Him. Sometimes sickness can be used for a greater good.

2. I don't believe in praying for the sick.
-No, I do. However, I don't believe that if they don't get healed, it's because of some hidden sin. I believe that God knows what's best for our lives. At times, health is best for us. Other times, sickness is best for us.

3. I don't believe God wants people to prosper.
-True. As long as we recognize the difference between providing and prospering. I do believe God will provide for our lives and give us everything we need. I do not believe He necessarilly is going to prosper us to the point of millions of dollars and a Rolls Royce.

4. I believe God created sickness
-No. I believe that sickness along with mortality entered this world through the fall of man. It's part of daily life. I do believe God can use sickness. I believe God can use anything (as long as it doesn't compromise His charecter) for a greater good.

5. I believe all Word of Faith members are going to hell.
-No, but I do believe that teachings such as emphasis on faith healing can be dangerous. I believe the essentials of Christianity are usually there (some however, as any other group, have their few that are messed up).

6. I believe the Faith movement is all about getting money from people.
-No. I do believe that many of the leaders, such as Hinn, do use their fame as a platform to get money from "followers" in unethical ways. However, I do believe the average Word of Faith church has the right intentions when taking offerings/asking for donations.

I'm sure there are more that I have encountered. These are the big ones though. Hopefully I cleared up some of the missconceptions about me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thanks for sharing usadingo!

Speaking of missconceptions...
To those, like me, who are not part of the Word of Faith movement, we're just as labeled. Here are the big one's I get...

1. I don't believe in healings
-No, I do. I just don't believe they are guarenteed while on this earth. I don't believe that just because someone is sick, it's because of sin. It may be, but there are scientific facts like if you drink contaminated water, you're more likely to get sick.
God still heals people, but it's up to Him. Sometimes sickness can be used for a greater good.

I think these ideas you have shared really pull out the differences that we have. Of course you believe in healings! Very few people on these boards and in these discussions do not. But again, that is just a symptom of our difference. The real difference is that we believe that these things have already been settled in heaven. You are right, it is up to God to decided who gets healed... and He decided 2000 years ago that it would be everyone who believes. The work has been done. Like the Word says "By His stripes ye WERE healed...." it does not say will be. You WERE healed. It is a settled matter. Just like salvation from sin, this has been settled. The will of God has been made manifest in the work of Jesus on the cross and in the ressurection. God delievered us from the curse of the law when Jesus hung on the tree. In fact, it would now be gross injustice toward Jesus for God to now decide that sickness (or any of the curses) could still be applied to us by His will. Jesus already endured the cross for these things. God would no more decide that we would not be healed than He would decide we would not be saved when we called on the name of Jesus for salvation. These are settled matters. The cross and the ressurection settled them forever. Only believe.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2. I don't believe in praying for the sick.
-No, I do. However, I don't believe that if they don't get healed, it's because of some hidden sin. I believe that God knows what's best for our lives. At times, health is best for us. Other times, sickness is best for us.

There are two possibilities that people entertain. One is that they must be doing something wrong, and the other is that God must not want them healed.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Sickness is never good for anyone. Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil. You never see where he did bad and sickened people "because it was best for them." You never see where Jesus healed those who were "oppressed of God", because He is not in the oppression business. The idea that God wants people sick is not supported by the ministry or Jesus, and Jesus is the exact image of God and only and always did the will of God.
Sometimes people want to think that God is behind their sickness because they want to see Him active and working in their lives. These folks will ascribe every problem and pain to the work of God in their lives. Instead of believing the Word and resisting the devil, they choose to "prove their faithfullness" by enduring the torment. This is not overcoming... this is undergoing. God wants us to overcome the world and the devil, not undergo the probems they persent.

3. I don't believe God wants people to prosper.
-True. As long as we recognize the difference between providing and prospering. I do believe God will provide for our lives and give us everything we need. I do not believe He necessarilly is going to prosper us to the point of millions of dollars and a Rolls Royce.

I do not have a million. But if I was enclined to believe for it, then He is certainly able to provide. Some people cannot handle wealth. I have been poor and I have been rich. I have known many rich people and many poor people. I see very little difference between them. I have known poor people who were more obsessed with "things" than any rich person. And I have known rich people who were totally indifferent to "things". My grandfather was a millionare. He lived in a normal sized house on a normal street and drove a normal car. You would not guess his wealth if you met him. I live on a resort island in SC. Our house is surrounded by two and three million dollar houses. God just plopped us into where we are.
(see http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=766564#post766564)
Ultimately God looks at your heart, not at your pocketbook.

4. I believe God created sickness
-No. I believe that sickness along with mortality entered this world through the fall of man. It's part of daily life. I do believe God can use sickness. I believe God can use anything (as long as it doesn't compromise His charecter) for a greater good.

True... God can use anything. But what He uses in our lives is determined by what we believe. If sickness happens to cause us to pay attention to Him, then that is really not His doing now is it? If we just go ahead and walk in faith and in the light, then there is no reason or need to have to endure sickness, poverty, oppression, or any other curse. I do not think that God actively uses the works of the devil to accomplish His will. Jesus never did these things. The message to people who are not paying attention to God and are suffering because of is this... repent and believe. You can do that without being sick or suffering. Bottom line is this: In the end, it is always faith that brings you to God. Sickness may turn your head toward Him, but it is still faith that brings you to Him.

5. I believe all Word of Faith members are going to hell.
-No, but I do believe that teachings such as emphasis on faith healing can be dangerous. I believe the essentials of Christianity are usually there (some however, as any other group, have their few that are messed up).

Thanks for that. As I said in another post... we really do not push healing as much as we are just responding to those who would attempt to steal healing from the people of God and slander the love nature of God by saying it is not His will to heal all.

6. I believe the Faith movement is all about getting money from people.
-No. I do believe that many of the leaders, such as Hinn, do use their fame as a platform to get money from "followers" in unethical ways. However, I do believe the average Word of Faith church has the right intentions when taking offerings/asking for donations.

Thanks for that too!
I have been teaching these things for many years, and you could put all the money I have made by it and maybe buy a set of tires. I do think that people like Hinn and others are probably under a lot of attack by the media and others who are naturally opposed to the work of God in the world. In the end, I think we will find out that much of what we see on the TV talk shows is garabage. I dunno. I have only watched Hinn a couple times and really do not know what he is about. But if he is presenting the gospel (and from what I hear, he does) then I say leave him allone and let God sort it out. I used to live near PTL of Jim Bakker fame. We went to Heritage USA many times and even worked the phones sometimes. He fell... that is true. But I have to ask if the world is a better place because PTL is gone. I think it did some valuable work. It is a shame that what happened hurt so many.

I'm sure there are more that I have encountered. These are the big ones though. Hopefully I cleared up some of the missconceptions about me.

Thanks. And I think most of these issues are in house discussions. But I also think that if your concept of WOF is from books by McConnell and Hank, then you are getting a very skewed picture. But thanks for the discussion!
God Bless!

 

[usadingo]

Thanks for sharing usadingo!

And let me start by saying, thanks for the kind words and avoiding personal attacks.

You are right, it is up to God to decided who gets healed... and He decided 2000 years ago that it would be everyone who believes. The work has been done. Like the Word says "By His stripes ye WERE healed...." it does not say will be. You WERE healed.

To which, as I've explained before (not saying you missed it), Isaiah 53:4-6 says that we were healed for our iniquities and transgressions. Both refering to spiritual sins. It's later reference is in Matthew 8:16-17. However, here it says he healed to fulfill what was said by the prophet Isaiah.
In John 5 (I'd check to make sure this is the right location), we have the man healed by the pool (I almost typed poop...I'm tired). In this passage, there are two things that are interesting to me. 1, the man did not ask for healing. Jesus went to him and asked if he wanted to be healed. And 2, there were many sick by the pool, and Jesus chose to only heal the one man.
John 9 shows us the man born blind. Jesus does heal him, but explains that neither this man, nor his parents sinned. It was done to show the work of God in his life.
Basically, I believe that Jesus healed for a reason. Mainly, to show who he was. In discussions, there have been a lot of Word of Faith supporters who have said to me that healings continued with the disciples, and healings still occur today. To which I respond, 1, we're not disciples, and 2, I agree there are still healings today. The Bible describes healing as one of the spiritual gifts. However, I do think that many of the "healers" of today are scams using techniques populerized by gurus.
Bottom line though, I believe healings are strickly God's will, and not guarenteed while alive on this earth.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.


There are two possibilities that people entertain. One is that they must be doing something wrong, and the other is that God must not want them healed.

No offense, but this is where I find the movement dangerous. There have been many cases of followers of the Faith movement who do things like throwing away their kids insulin as a sign of faith. Or refusing to wear their glasses as a sign of faith. The dangers that can follow are evident.

[/QUOTE]Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Sickness is never good for anyone. Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil. You never see where he did bad and sickened people "because it was best for them."[/QUOTE]
This is when I usually refer back to my story of Sonny, from P.O.D., and his mom who died of cancer. Through her sickness and death, he came to Christ, and is now a witness to millions of youth who normally wouldn't be caught dead in a church.
Sometimes sickness and suffering can be used for a greater good.

True... God can use anything. But what He uses in our lives is determined by what we believe. If sickness happens to cause us to pay attention to Him, then that is really not His doing now is it? If we just go ahead and walk in faith and in the light, then there is no reason or need to have to endure sickness, poverty, oppression, or any other curse. I do not think that God actively uses the works of the devil to accomplish His will. Jesus never did these things. The message to people who are not paying attention to God and are suffering because of is this... repent and believe. You can do that without being sick or suffering. Bottom line is this: In the end, it is always faith that brings you to God. Sickness may turn your head toward Him, but it is still faith that brings you to Him.

But what if through your sickness, many are brought to Christ. I think if we look at the message of Christ, one would see that being sick for the sake of others would be far worth it. There is no greater love than be willing to lay down our life for someone. If we are to be willing to die for someone, I think we should be willing to be sick for an unknown reason.

Thanks for that. As I said in another post... we really do not push healing as much as we are just responding to those who would attempt to steal healing from the people of God and slander the love nature of God by saying it is not His will to heal all.

I mainly agree. However, I stand by the fact that God never gives us more than we can handle. Positive or negative. Therefore, if He were to use sickness, He knows a true follower could hold to their faith through it. If they died, they'd go to be with Him. Both can have positive ends.
As for death, I think there are too many who view death as the ultimate in bad things. As Christians, it should be viewed as tragic joy. "We don't mourn like those who have no hope." Whenever a follower of Christ dies, I find myself jealous. While I'm glad to be alive and believe God is not done with me yet, I am anxious for the day I'm with my Lord for eternity.

I have only watched Hinn a couple times and really do not know what he is about. But if he is presenting the gospel (and from what I hear, he does) then I say leave him allone and let God sort it out. I used to live near PTL of Jim Bakker fame. We went to Heritage USA many times and even worked the phones sometimes. He fell... that is true. But I have to ask if the world is a better place because PTL is gone. I think it did some valuable work. It is a shame that what happened hurt so many.

And I feel the Bible is pretty clear on how we should expose false teachers, and not sit back and let them go on destroying the lives of others.
Just for a moment, consider the possibility that Hinn, and teacher like him are using scripture twisting, false prophecy, and other immoral methonds to gain fame and money in the name of Christianity. Don't you think that as someone claiming to be a real Christian, we should speak out against them?

Thanks. And I think most of these issues are in house discussions. But I also think that if your concept of WOF is from books by McConnell and Hank, then you are getting a very skewed picture. But thanks for the discussion!
God Bless!

I get my info from many places. Mainly from the lips of the teachers themselves. However, with a lot of people like Hank, I feel people often twist his words to claim he's twisting words. The first of the sites sent to me a few posts back is an excellent example of this. But as he says, we should examine all things in the light of scripture. That's one truth I hold tight to.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

And let me start by saying, thanks for the kind words and avoiding personal attacks.

dingo,

I know you were not speaking to me here, and I know that you did not say you were referring to me either, but if you have felt that I personally attacked, then I ask your forgiveness. That was never my intent, although I was a weeeeee bit peeved that you nitpicked on my grammer. . .even 2 posts after the initial error when I had reexplained the sentence you had such trouble with.

To which, as I've explained before (not saying you missed it), Isaiah 53:4-6 says that we were healed for our iniquities and transgressions. Both refering to spiritual sins. It's later reference is in Matthew 8:16-17. However, here it says he healed to fulfill what was said by the prophet Isaiah.
In John 5 (I'd check to make sure this is the right location), we have the man healed by the pool (I almost typed poop...I'm tired). In this passage, there are two things that are interesting to me. 1, the man did not ask for healing. Jesus went to him and asked if he wanted to be healed. And 2, there were many sick by the pool, and Jesus chose to only heal the one man.
John 9 shows us the man born blind. Jesus does heal him, but explains that neither this man, nor his parents sinned. It was done to show the work of God in his life.
Basically, I believe that Jesus healed for a reason. Mainly, to show who he was.

I believe Jesus died to heal the whole man. . .not just the partial. It was all done at the cross. He did not do a partial job, He did a whole job. It was finished. Those were His words.

In discussions, there have been a lot of Word of Faith supporters who have said to me that healings continued with the disciples, and healings still occur today. To which I respond, 1, we're not disciples, and 2, I agree there are still healings today. The Bible describes healing as one of the spiritual gifts. However, I do think that many of the "healers" of today are scams using techniques populerized by gurus.
Bottom line though, I believe healings are strickly God's will, and not guarenteed while alive on this earth.

According to the Word, we "were/are" healed. It was done. It's guarenteed to the believer who takes hold of it. Me personally. . .I have not reached that place yet. . .I'm currently depending on Dr's for some things. . .but because I believe that the Bible speaks the Truth, then I'm working on my flesh to get it to respond to what the Word says.

No offense, but this is where I find the movement dangerous. There have been many cases of followers of the Faith movement who do things like throwing away their kids insulin as a sign of faith. Or refusing to wear their glasses as a sign of faith. The dangers that can follow are evident.

I cannot answer for what other people choose to do. I personally have never heard Hinn, or Hagen tell someone to stop taking their medicine. I have heard them to go to their doctor and get proof of healing.

In this forum I've seen people give testimony of great healing and they get attacked from others requiring proof. . .that is why they say see your doctor first. . .wait for them to tell. . .so that you have proof to show those who won't believe otherwise.

And if the doctor does not give approval. . .that does not mean they are not healed. . .the just must learn to walk in that healing instead of being dictated to by their flesh. This is the area I am learning to walk in too. As I take the medication I thank God for my healing. . .His word says I'm healed. Then I ask Him to bless what I'm about to put in my body and I anticipate the day I walk into my dr's office and she (a believer who believes the same as I) tells me that my body is indicating I don't need to take it anymore.

I know this may not make sense to you and I wish I could explain it better. I know when I struggled with all of this during the years of hemmoraging I had to keep asking questions. Of others and of God. Finely one day, for me the light came on and I understood. I'm still not where I want to be in this area but I'm gonna continue to aim at it until the day I die. . .I believe that's what God says.

This is when I usually refer back to my story of Sonny, from P.O.D., and his mom who died of cancer. Through her sickness and death, he came to Christ, and is now a witness to millions of youth who normally wouldn't be caught dead in a church.
Sometimes sickness and suffering can be used for a greater good.

Do you think God had no other way of getting your friend to Him? He had to kill his mom? I'm sorry, I don't believe that. Your friend became desperate enough to see he needed Jesus. But I don't believe that she was made sick for the sole purpose of someone coming to Christ.

But what if through your sickness, many are brought to Christ. I think if we look at the message of Christ, one would see that being sick for the sake of others would be far worth it. There is no greater love than be willing to lay down our life for someone. If we are to be willing to die for someone, I think we should be willing to be sick for an unknown reason.

I'm not perfect enough for my sufferings to bring anybody to salvation. . .but Jesus was. . .and did. It was finished. No-one else needs to nor can they do anything to add to it.

I mainly agree. However, I stand by the fact that God never gives us more than we can handle. Positive or negative. Therefore, if He were to use sickness, He knows a true follower could hold to their faith through it. If they died, they'd go to be with Him. Both can have positive ends.

Yes, going to heaven is a positive thing. . .but what would be the point of this sort of test if God already knows their heart?

As for death, I think there are too many who view death as the ultimate in bad things. As Christians, it should be viewed as tragic joy. "We don't mourn like those who have no hope."

I don't view death as the ultimate in bad things either. I don't view sickness as the ultimate in bad things. The ultimate in bad things is someone dying without Christ.

Whenever a follower of Christ dies, I find myself jealous. While I'm glad to be alive and believe God is not done with me yet, I am anxious for the day I'm with my Lord for eternity.

Me too dingo, me too.

And I feel the Bible is pretty clear on how we should expose false teachers, and not sit back and let them go on destroying the lives of others.

If people don't know the Word for themselves they are responsible for their own actions.

Also, please show me the scripture where it says we are to "expose" false teachers. It tells us to be aware of them, but where is the exposing part?

Just for a moment, consider the possibility that Hinn, and teacher like him are using scripture twisting, false prophecy, and other immoral methonds to gain fame and money in the name of Christianity. Don't you think that as someone claiming to be a real Christian, we should speak out against them?

If I could see proof that Hinn was really doing that, then I would caution people to pray and hear from God. . .they are supposed to be doing that anyway. I personally know 5 people who know Hinn personally. One of them was an employee of Hinn and is now one of the Pastors of my church along with his wife. Two others are Pastors I use to be under and I'm still very close friends with, and the last is my room-mate. All 5 have nothing but good to say about Benny.

I personally don't listen much to him. . .he's a little too showy for me. . .but I don't believe he is deliberately out to decieve anyone.

I get my info from many places. Mainly from the lips of the teachers themselves. However, with a lot of people like Hank, I feel people often twist his words to claim he's twisting words. The first of the sites sent to me a few posts back is an excellent example of this. But as he says, we should examine all things in the light of scripture. That's one truth I hold tight to.

Well. . .HH. . .he was the one I was referring to in my one post. . .I did not twist anything. I had the books side by side. . .I looked up each ref he gave. . .my friend, whose church I went to, who I knew did not teach the things HH was accusing him of, was very much misquoted.

 

[look]

Hey Quaffer, I live in Daytona and was wondering if you have been to Peter Gammons' church? It's called Cathedral of Faith and it's on 4114 Goldenrod Road with services on Sundays at 8:30 and 10:30 in the morning. The church has a home page, it's http://www.pgmi.org/ I take care of mom and hardly get to go to church, so I was wondering what you thought of it?

Shalom, with nothing broken and nothing missing...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I've never been there or even heard of it look. . . when you are able, is that where you go?

I was in Daytona about a month ago for a women's conf with the network of churches that I am part of. The church that hosted it was Daytona City Church at 211 Bay St.. I was probably right in your neighborhood.

Thanks for letting me know.

 

[look]

Quaffer, I go to Calvary Christian Center, it's in Ormond. Their home page is at http://calvarychristiancenter.com/

You are part of the H.I.S. Church network? Cool! They just moved in that building, it used to be a Methodist church!

My pastor was invited to preach at a "empowerment" conference at Bethune Cookman College! We have a mixed congregation and I wouldn't have it any other way!!! After all, I daresay that most of the saints in Heaven, after the rapture, will be Chinese! In China, there are tens of thousands of Chinese getting born-again, daily!!! So if the Lord should tarry...