Quaffer said:
I believe Jesus died to heal the whole man. . .not just the partial. It was all done at the cross. He did not do a partial job, He did a whole job. It was finished. Those were His words.
I believe this too. Again though, I believe that while we are on this earth, physical healing is not guarenteed. Spiritually though, we all have been healed. We just have to accept that gift of God.
I cannot answer for what other people choose to do. I personally have never heard Hinn, or Hagen tell someone to stop taking their medicine. I have heard them to go to their doctor and get proof of healing.
And they do say to go to doctors. I don't deny this. Although, for a lot of teachers, it's after being confronted about saying they shouldn't see doctors.
But anyway, this is what I call the great contridiction of Faith healing. If we are to have faith that we will be healed, and then go to a doctor when we receive our healing to make sure, did we really have faith to begin with? By going to a doctor, we are admitting that there might not be a chance that we were healed.
When we take medicine, we are not putting our whole faith in God. We are relying on the medicine.
While these teachers may say to go to a doctor, just to be sure, the rest of their message contridicts this action. Basic common sense is telling these teacher's followers that avoiding doctors and medicine is the best way to show true faith.
Do you think God had no other way of getting your friend to Him? He had to kill his mom? I'm sorry, I don't believe that. Your friend became desperate enough to see he needed Jesus. But I don't believe that she was made sick for the sole purpose of someone coming to Christ.
Just to make sure we're on the same level here, let me explain who my "friend" is.
Sonny, is Sonny Sandoval of the band P.O.D. (Payable on Death)
Their last album, "Satellite" has gone on to sell over four million copies (multi-platinum.) Their songs "Southtown" "Outkast" "Boom" "Rock the Party" "Satellite" "Youth of the Nation" "Alive" and "Ghetto" are all in heavy rotation on the radio, and most have videos that have reached the tops of MTV's countdowns. Their song "School of Hardknocks" is featured on the "Little Nicky" soundtrack. Recently, they recorded the song "Sleeping Awake" as a title track for "The Matrix: Reloaded."
With that said, I'm sure God could have reached Sonny in another way. However, when you consider that many of P.O.D.'s songs were a direct result of the death of Sonny's mother, one often wonders if they would have been so successful without those songs, or reached as many people as they have.
I do know, through speaking with Sonny myself, his Mother would probably be ok with knowing that through her death, not only has her son come to Christ, but thousands upon thousands have been reached for Christ as well.
I'm not perfect enough for my sufferings to bring anybody to salvation. . .but Jesus was. . .and did. It was finished. No-one else needs to nor can they do anything to add to it.
And I say that, who are we to even claim we have a better plan than God?
Yes, going to heaven is a positive thing. . .but what would be the point of this sort of test if God already knows their heart?
Romans 5:3- "Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope."
Also, please show me the scripture where it says we are to "expose" false teachers. It tells us to be aware of them, but where is the exposing part?
Good discernment and moral accountability should be practiced among believers. The Old Testament establishes this pattern. Instructions concerning false prophets in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 assume the prophet arises from the congregation of Israel. People are admonished to banish idolatry from their families: "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend..." (v. 6). Deuteronomy 13 instructs the Israelites how to practice good discernment within their communities: "You must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly." If the community is idolatrous, it must be dealt with publicly (v. 14). Psalm 50:18 states that one who sees a crime and doesn't report it has moral culpability.
The New Testament continues the theme of good discernment within the believing community, most notably when the Bereans test Paul's teachings (Acts 17:11) and the Thessalonians are commanded to test all things (1 Thess. 5:21-22). Judgment is not excluded, but unrighteous judgment is. Jesus declared: "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment" (John 7:24).
Jesus expelled the money changers from the temple, denounced the Pharisees and scribes, and rebuked the teachers of the Law. He reprimanded Peter in front of the other disciples (Matt. 16:22-23). Paul followed Jesus' example, naming false teachers in the church (2 Tim. 2:14-19) and openly criticizing Peter (Gal. 2:11, 14).
When immorality occurs in the church (Titus 1:15-16), the Bible says to deal with it truthfully and constructively. The procedure for public leaders caught in false teaching or immorality is for them to be rebuked publicly "so that the others may take warning" (1 Tim. 5:20). A congregation member who sins privately against another Christian is not to be exposed publicly unless he (or she) persists in sin, in which case he is to be rebuked before the church and we are to "treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector" (Matt. 18:15-17). Paul followed this procedure concerning the Christian who persisted in sexual immorality (1 Cor. 5:3-12), and affirmed that judgment belongs to the church.
If I could see proof that Hinn was really doing that, then I would caution people to pray and hear from God. . .they are supposed to be doing that anyway.
Just watch him on TV. Typically, if he's not pushing people over and actually teaching, it only takes a few moments before he says something that's not right.
Well. . .HH. . .he was the one I was referring to in my one post. . .I did not twist anything. I had the books side by side. . .I looked up each ref he gave. . .my friend, whose church I went to, who I knew did not teach the things HH was accusing him of, was very much misquoted.
I never said you twisted his words. I was saying that those web-sites offered as "proofs" only made attempts to disprove Hank's book by twisting his words.