Word-Faith?

[SnuP]

Actually I have to disagree with you also Quaffer. He was of the linage of David, which means that he had Davids bloodline.

Scripture says that guilt for sin is pasted down from the fathers linage, not the mother's.
Exodus 20:5
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Jesus had no earthly father, therefore no guilt passed to Him. Yes His DNA did come in part from His mother, but spiritual inherritance comes from the father. Therefore Jesus inherrited a relationship and the gifts of the Spirit, rather then seperation, and death.

Children are born with diseases and informities because death lives within the father and the children inherrit that death. This is the Adamic curse. Christ never inherreted that because he didn't have an earthly father.

 

[usadingo]

Exodus 20:5-6- "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Notice how it says He will punish the children of those who hate Him, but show love for a thousand generations for those who love Him.
Now, if sickness is sin, and babies born with defects are a result of sin, than God is putting sin on people since it says here that he punishes.
So under your theory, how can God punish with sinful things?

 

[SnuP]

being sick is not a sin. Sickness is not sin. Sin causes sickness. they are equal in terms of were one is the other will be. God punishes with cause and effect. Sin brings sickness. The wages of sin is death. It is a universal law, that God allows to govern this planet. Sowing and reaping. You sow to the flesh you reap in the flesh distruction. You sow to the spirit you reap life. there is no sickness that isn't caused by sin. The two are eternally pared together. It is the laws way of producing fruit. There wouldn't be any such thing as sickness if it wasn't for sin.

 

[usadingo]

being sick is not a sin. Sickness is not sin. Sin causes sickness. they are equal in terms of were one is the other will be. God punishes with cause and effect. Sin brings sickness. The wages of sin is death. It is a universal law, that God allows to govern this planet. Sowing and reaping. You sow to the flesh you reap in the flesh distruction. You sow to the spirit you reap life. there is no sickness that isn't caused by sin. The two are eternally pared together. It is the laws way of producing fruit. There wouldn't be any such thing as sickness if it wasn't for sin.

Basic math my friend. If A = B, than B = A. If sickness = sin, than sin = sickness. Therefore, if sickness is the result of sin, and sin is equal to sickness, than sickness is sin. If the result of sin is sickness at times, than if God punishes with sickness, he punishes with sin. Unfortunately, not possible.

James 5:15- "And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven."

Note how the second part of the verse says "If he has sinned..." when talking about a sick person. If you look at this verse, you'll see that someone can be sick, and it not be the result of sin. Why would James write "If he has sinned" if all sickness is the result of sin?

Sickness is a part of life. If you open your mouth and let a kid with the flu sneeze in it, you'll get the flu too. It's all part of having mortal bodies. When we get to heaven, then we will have our glorified bodies, free from sickness and pain.

 

[SnuP]

I like how you seem to harp on the intricacies of how a person speaks. If I don't say it exactly right, then there is something wrong, and you must point it out, even though I have already done so. Can't you just follow along with me and leave the nite picking to the imature.

Take another look at your scripture. It says, if "he" has sinned. He may not have sinned, the sickness may be a result of Adamic sin, or a generational curse. I think that we have already been over that point. The reason that it is even tied it, is that forgiveness for his sin is necessary other wise the sickness will come back. The problem is that the man in question is living his life outside of the life of Christ, and therefore under the law. This always results in sickness, because adamic sin is not dealt with outside of Christ. Only in Christ is adamic sin not an issue. Only those outside of Christ in some are of their life, can get sick.

 

[SnuP]

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotton Son to save the world form sin and then let you live out the rest of your life in misery untill you die a sick and painful death." (For all those who don't get it this is called sarcasm.)

I'm sorry guy, I love you but I just can't believe that. This senerio doesn't fit with a God of love.

 

[usadingo]

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotton Son to save the world form sin and then let you live out the rest of your life in misery untill you die a sick and painful death." (For all those who don't get it this is called sarcasm.)

I'm sorry guy, I love you but I just can't believe that. This senerio doesn't fit with a God of love.

Then I hope you don't believe the Godly men of the Bible who were often sick. I hope you don't believe in the gruesome deaths the disciples endoured for the name of Christ.

Suffering is real. Sickness is real. Heaven is where we'll finally be free of it.

By the way, what sin is Billy Graham still unforgiven for? After all, he's been fighting parkinson's for years.

 

[SnuP]

Then I hope you don't believe the Godly men of the Bible who were often sick. I hope you don't believe in the gruesome deaths the disciples endoured for the name of Christ.

Suffering is real. Sickness is real. Heaven is where we'll finally be free of it.

By the way, what sin is Billy Graham still unforgiven for? After all, he's been fighting parkinson's for years.

We already discoused Job, where we saw a Godly man who was suffering and what sins he had. Being sick or sinfull does not make you less of a Godly man. Not trusting God to lead your life does make you not a Godly man. You should also not that there is an extreme difference between suffering at the hands of men, who have free will, and suffering at the hands of some unseen force that seems to have authority over you. Remember that Christ placed all authority in heaven and on earth in our hands, with the exception of authority over the free will of men. "In this world you will have tribulation", the world being the evil of men. Jesus said that men would hate us for His sake. To suffer for the sake of the Gospel is to suffer at the hands of men, not sickness. Many who cannot find God's salvation of their bodies on earth will find it in heaven, that is true, but that does not mean that we have to suffer from something that we have authority over.

John 14:12
12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Don't you believe this scripture.





As for Billy Graham, I don't like to comment on the lives of those who I don't know unless it is proven, painfully obvious. I don't really know anything about him. You will have to ask God what is causing Mr. Graham's sickness. And it may not be a sin that you find on the surface.

By the way, do you believe that Billy Graham is sinless or something?

 

[SnuP]

Here are a couple of sicknesses and their roots. I borrowed this from my father's notes for a sermon. The specific causes he has not listed for the sake of time in his sermon. If anyone is interested in a specific infirmity and wants more info concerning its root, I'd be glad to give that info.



Acne-peer pressure=fear and anxiety
Allergies-fear, anxiety and stress compromise the immune system
Asthma-great fear concerning relationships
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)-anxiety disorder coupled with an autoimmune override initiating out of guilt and poor self-esteem
Colic-inherited spirit of fear
Fibromyalgia-stress, tension, depression, anxiety and striving
Irratable Bowel Syndrome-anxiety, fear and insecurityies
Osteoperosis-envy and jealousy=fears
Parasites-fear and anxiety having weakened the immune system
PMS-fear of pain, feeling unclean
Sunus Infections-fear and anxiety, rage and anger
Sleep Disorders-fight or flight, torment=anxiety disorder
Diabetes (Hypergycemia)-extreme rejection and self-hatred coupled with guilt with a fear, anxiety and stress rider-male authority saying,"You are no good."
Migraines-guilt from (inner) conflict and then fear





And these are just some of the ones from the fear, anxiety, and stress section. There are many more sections.

 

[Andrew]

Are you suffering for the wrong reasons?

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/suffering.html

 

[usadingo]

We already discoused Job, where we saw a Godly man who was suffering and what sins he had.

And yet, if we actually take time to read scripture, you find that the book of Job mentions nothing of his "sins" before God decides to let Satan do whatever he wants to Job (except kill him.) In fact, it even states that God considered Job blameless in His eyes.

John 14:12
12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Don't you believe this scripture.

I do. But I also believe in putting things in context. The passage goes on to state how we are to obey God'd/Jesus' will first by obeying Him. Other passages clearly state that we can have what we ask, as long as we ask it according to God's will. If God can make a donkey talk and use it, I have a feeling He can use someone's sickness, even though we might not understand it. Again, consider Sonny, from P.O.D. who became a Christian through his mother's sickness, and has gone on to be a witness to literally millions.

As for Billy Graham, I don't like to comment on the lives of those who I don't know unless it is proven, painfully obvious. I don't really know anything about him. You will have to ask God what is causing Mr. Graham's sickness. And it may not be a sin that you find on the surface.

By the way, do you believe that Billy Graham is sinless or something?

No, I don't. However, it seems strange that such a Godly man who brings thousands to Christ every month, if not more, would continue to battle with a terminal disease.

As for your later post about the roots of sickness, I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Parasites a sickness? They're living orginisms just as much as a dog or even a human. They're not exactly a "disease." They're not caused by "fear and a weakened immune system." They're caused by things like drinking contaminated water. Saying a parasite is a disease caused by fear is like saying a bear attack is a disease.
Asthma and Diabetes are often diagnosed at birth. The first often being caused by smoking or it's effects....I'm not going to even continue with the list due to it's absurdity. Scientific causes have been found for these "diseases" that are far from "fear." Unfortunately, we can't take things, label them as being caused by fear, and use it to support our arguement. Don't believe me? Try making something up on a college term paper and using it as "evidence."

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Here are a couple of sicknesses and their roots. I borrowed this from my father's notes for a sermon. The specific causes he has not listed for the sake of time in his sermon. If anyone is interested in a specific infirmity and wants more info concerning its root, I'd be glad to give that info.



Acne-peer pressure=fear and anxiety
Allergies-fear, anxiety and stress compromise the immune system
Asthma-great fear concerning relationships
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)-anxiety disorder coupled with an autoimmune override initiating out of guilt and poor self-esteem
Colic-inherited spirit of fear
Fibromyalgia-stress, tension, depression, anxiety and striving
Irratable Bowel Syndrome-anxiety, fear and insecurityies
Osteoperosis-envy and jealousy=fears
Parasites-fear and anxiety having weakened the immune system
PMS-fear of pain, feeling unclean
Sunus Infections-fear and anxiety, rage and anger
Sleep Disorders-fight or flight, torment=anxiety disorder
Diabetes (Hypergycemia)-extreme rejection and self-hatred coupled with guilt with a fear, anxiety and stress rider-male authority saying,"You are no good."
Migraines-guilt from (inner) conflict and then fear





And these are just some of the ones from the fear, anxiety, and stress section. There are many more sections.

Wow SnuP, I'm looking forward to seeing that whole list when I get up your way. Make sure there is plenty of coffee or soda

I've been witness to many of these cronic illnesses disappearig in peoples lives when they allow God to poke around in the heart and clean up all those hidden areas. Mine included.

Oh, and I edited that one part of my post. . .as I left the library and was thinking over what I had said, I realized that what I had said was wrong but I could not get back until today to fix it. Thank you for making it more clear.

 

[SnuP]

these things are compiled based upon the ministery of Henry Wright, where thousands have been set free by finding the root. If it seems illogical to you then please contact that ministery and have them explain it to you. The evidence is in the fact that people are being delivered, not in your ability to deduce the logic of the situations. I'm sorry that it doesn't fit within you belief system, but it works and the testimonies are valid.

The issues that God wanted Job to see were issues of his heart, as I have already said. There was nothing sinful about Job's actions, but he did have a pride problem, which is a heart problem, and he did have a fear problem, which is again a heart problem.

As for my last post being dumb, if you remember your biology, bacteria are also living orgainisms, but are the main cause of desease. One could call a bacteria a parasite. But there is a reason that a person is subsetable to such infestation. This is the reason for root causes. Why don't you ask yourself why some people get colds every year and others seem to never get them.

 

[usadingo]

these things are compiled based upon the ministery of Henry Wright, where thousands have been set free by finding the root. If it seems illogical to you then please contact that ministery and have them explain it to you. The evidence is in the fact that people are being delivered, not in your ability to deduce the logic of the situations. I'm sorry that it doesn't fit within you belief system, but it works and the testimonies are valid.

I just conducted a study that shows how dogs can speak french, but only I can hear them. I can't wait to get it published, because once it's in print, people consider it fact. Well, unless it's the Bible. "It's written by men, so therefore it contains errors. This book here says so." The great hypocricy, I say.
Anyway, those dIseases have scientific causes. There are those who have the symptoms of those diseases, but in all actuality, don't. They're called hypocondriacs. People like Benny Hinn thrive off these so called teachers. Bring people expecting miracles into a room, tell them over and over that miracles will happen, and pretty soon people start feeling better! It's the same technique populerized by gurus and shamen. However, with an actual disease, you can create a conditioned response to where the person feels better. That is until they wake up the next day and try running a mile, or eating 20 candy bars.

The issues that God wanted Job to see were issues of his heart, as I have already said. There was nothing sinful about Job's actions, but he did have a pride problem, which is a heart problem, and he did have a fear problem, which is again a heart problem.

All I know is, God made the decision to have Job tested before anything about Job's pride was ever mentioned.

As for my last post being dumb, if you remember your biology, bacteria are also living orgainisms, but are the main cause of desease. One could call a bacteria a parasite. But there is a reason that a person is subsetable to such infestation. This is the reason for root causes. Why don't you ask yourself why some people get colds every year and others seem to never get them.

That's partially it. Bacteria are organizms. They cause a lot of dIseases. Not fear of something or other. While constant worrying can weaken an immune system, it's the bacteria/virus itself that causes the sickness. And by the way, cold are caused by viruses. Just to make sure. Anyway, they cause sicknesses by invading the host organizm, and multiplying over and over again. The symptoms of the sickness are not from the bacteria/viruses themself, but from one's immune system fighting them. I.e. puss is dead white blood cells attacking bacteria.
As for parasites, they attatch onto hosts and feed off them. For example, a lamprey on a shark attatches itself to a shark and feeds off it. Or a better example, a tapeworm attatches to a host, and feeds off material in the intestines. Symptoms experienced are not from the tapeworm itself, but from malnutrition as the tapeworm eats not fully digested food.
I just thought I'd teach you what they teach in biology since you brought it up.

 

[TheScottsMen]

First off, when it comes to infirmites, viruses, money, whatever, are we suppose to have a care in the world about these things? NO. We are to cast them on the Lord.

1Pe 5:7 casting all your anxiety upon him, because he careth for you.

We are NOT to be worried or anxious about ANYTHING. Including money or disease.

Phi 4:6 In nothing be anxious; but in everything by prayer and supplication(request) with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

So then, what are we to do when problems arise?

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.


Mat 21:21 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea, it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

there is no IFS, no ANDS, and no BUTS in this scripture. Is there?
But what about the will of God? We must be in the will of good to keep our prayers met. So what is to be in the will of God?

1Jo 5:14 And this is the boldness which we have toward him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jo 5:15 and if we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him.

So, how are we in the will of God? When his WORDS (The Bible, The scripture is WITHIN us, and we are WITHIN HIM! Then and only then are we able to receive our answers to our prayers.

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

"What if my desires are wrong?" Well why don't you get saved? Or if you are out of fellowship with God, then you need to repent. Those who are out of fellowship with God and those who are unsaved aren't going to be able to make Mark 11:24 work for them anyways. But a man who is saved and walking in fellowship with God has the right desires IN HIS HEART. You can't tell me a believers desires will be wrong if he is walking with God and keeping his flesh under subjection to his RECREATED, HUMAN, SPIRIT. A Christian is suppose to crucify the flesh. But in Mark 11:24, God is talking about the desires of the heart (spirit). We must realize that it is God's will that ALL OF our needs be met - Spirtual, Physical, financial or material.

Though we do not live under the Old Testament, we can understand more about the nature of God by studying the Old Testament. In the OT God promised more to his people then just spirtual things, but he promised them that if they would obey him, they would PROSPER financially and materially ( Deut 28:1-14)

God has given us EVERY provision for us for every area of our lives. He told his people in the Old Testament if they would obey them they would eat of the good of the land (Deut 28:1-14 Isa 1:19) The phrase "the good of the land" carries the implication that God's people are to PROSPER materially.

The Lord said that He would give good gifts to His children (Matt 7:11). Our heavenly Father is concenred about us ( I Peter 5:7) and in Mark 11:24 he is talking about the desires of our hearts and how to receive them.

All things must be ASKED in Jesus name. This is the key to ALL New Testament prayers. OT prayers were not through Jesus name nor did man have access to Gods throne room as we do now through our great high priest, Jesus.

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be made full.

"... that your joy may be full". This applies to everything in your life! Including spiritual and material! For instance, how in the world could your joy be full if you are laying in bed sick? If your rent is not paid? If collection groups are calling you every day demanding money? Are these problems to big or to small for God to fix? Is God willing to heal your cancer but not pay your bills? Why are you limiting Gods work in your life?

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

ALL THINGS SHALL BE ADDED TO US when we seek the Kingdom of God. Each and EVERY Born Again spirit filled Christian has the Kingdom of God within them!

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Luk 17:21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Amen

 

[TheScottsMen]

Also; the WOFM was not started by the likes of Hagin; Copeland; Piper; etc.. But by the likes of E.W. Kenyon. He himself not a Pentecostal believer. Now go again, search up on his name and you will find the same stuff you find on anyone! "He is BAD!", "He is Christian Science", "His teachings are false!". I could do a search on ANYONE on the net and find garbage written about them. Problem is, people read this garbage(gossip) and take it to be the truth.

 

[Andrew]

I just conducted a study that shows how dogs can speak french, but only I can hear them. I can't wait to get it published, because once it's in print, people consider it fact...

I just thought I'd teach you what they teach in biology since you brought it up.

*LOL same old same old science trying to be smarter than God.

If you'd humble yourself and be more teachable perhaps this verse will come through in your life:

Joh 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You are obviously jealous of Henry Wright's ministry. Do you have any miraculous testimonies from your ministry? If what you are teaching is right, there should be some confirmation (eg healings) from the Holy Spirit, as in Acts.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hi Guys,
Been away for a while and just thought I would check in and see if anything new is being discussed. Looks like same old same old.
If I get a second I will post something. Good to read you again!!!
Peace in Him
Didy

 

[usadingo]

You are obviously jealous of Henry Wright's ministry. Do you have any miraculous testimonies from your ministry? If what you are teaching is right, there should be some confirmation (eg healings) from the Holy Spirit, as in Acts.

::yawns::
Discussed it before! Live in the now!
That's the dumbest arguement you can use. Joni Erickson Tada has a huge, incredible ministry, and she's paralized from the neck down.
Billy Graham is the most recognizable evangelist on the planet, and he suffers from parkinson's.
As for me, I haven't started up an official ministry, so I don't expect anything from it. Besides, I'm not jealous of people who give false teachings out like Halloween candy.

 

[usadingo]

Also; the WOFM was not started by the likes of Hagin; Copeland; Piper; etc.. But by the likes of E.W. Kenyon. He himself not a Pentecostal believer. Now go again, search up on his name and you will find the same stuff you find on anyone! "He is BAD!", "He is Christian Science", "His teachings are false!". I could do a search on ANYONE on the net and find garbage written about them. Problem is, people read this garbage(gossip) and take it to be the truth.

Don't limit Kenyon. He actually majored in Metaphysical Science, and was heavily influenced by groups such as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, and New Thought metaphysics.
All classified as cults.