Word-Faith?

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SavedByGrace3

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usadingo said:
Don't limit Kenyon. He actually majored in Metaphysical Science, and was heavily influenced by groups such as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, and New Thought metaphysics.
All classified as cults.

I assume you know him personally and have personal knowledge of this?
I mean, I know you are not one to repeat unfounded stories... you know... like gossip... :rolleyes:

If you really want to hear the truth about Kenyon from people who actually knew him... then read:

"E W Kenyon,The True Story " by Joe McIntyre
 
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usadingo

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TheScottsMen said:
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Huh...that's funny, because if we look back a few verses, we also find in 19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
But maybe that was just a one time thing. Then again, if we look a few verses later in verse 24, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."

You see, there is a strong difference between God providing, and God prospering. That's what this passage is talking about by the way. It says God will provide, not God will provide and then give you a new wardrobe.
I wonder what the early church would have thought about this "prosperity message" as they were being lit on fire to be used as torches in Nero's gardens, and fed to lions. I have a feeling they were anxious for their fat paychecks from God.
Fact is, if we were to have heaven on earth, we wouldn't need heaven after death.

As for the other parts in your post, the whole, "the Bible IS God's will for us" line is logically incorrect. When the Bible itself was written, the authors were saying "Follow God's will." Again, that was before the Bible was completed. There are many things in this life that we want, but God knows isn't good for us. Just because we ask for something doesn't mean God has to give it to us. I'll let you in on a little secret. God is not Santa.
God promises to provide, not give us twenty cars, a million dollars, a mansion, etc.
 
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usadingo

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didaskalos said:
I assume you know him personally and have personal knowledge of this?
I mean, I know you are not one to repeat unfounded stories... you know... like gossip... :rolleyes:

If you really want to hear the truth about Kenyon from people who actually knew him... then read:

"E W Kenyon,The True Story " by Joe McIntyre
And I assume you know this McIntyre guy personally?
Give me a break...You don't have to know someone personally to research documented facts.
Kenyon's influences can be found in D.R. McConnell's "A Different Gospel," Pgs. 24-56.
 
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TheScottsMen

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Like I said, you are going to find garbage written about them. So, hes Christian Science and studied it huh? Prove it. Not by yet another persons opinion, but fact. Prove it. If I went to search on Martin Luther and I intend to find garbage written about him, im sure i'll find it! If I intend to find garbage written about Oral Roberts, im sure i'll find it. If I intend to find garbage written about Jesus Christ, im sure I'll find it! Garbage isn't hard to find, the truth it! The author of Another Gospel had his own opinion but if you check up on his book, its full of UNFACTS! Such as Kenyon studying Christian Science and majoring in any type of metephysical science. Instead of hearing something, why dony you check on it yourself? If someone told you in a book you could become rich by investing in such a stock, would you? Or would you research the stock for yourselves instead of taking another persons bios opinion.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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usadingo said:
And I assume you know this McIntyre guy personally?
Give me a break...You don't have to know someone personally to research documented facts.
Kenyon's influences can be found in D.R. McConnell's "A Different Gospel," Pgs. 24-56.

Actually Keyon's teachings can be found in one of many of his books like "The Father and His Family", "The Name of Jesus", "The Blood Covenant", and "A New Kind of Love".
You do not have to read someone's commentary on the man... go to the source. Read what the man said about Jesus, the Father, Prayer, Faith, and love. You will find the truth about what he taught. If you are concerned about the man's history, get the facts from those who knew him. (And BTW, I have in fact had personal correspondance with Mr McIntyre who is a family friend of the Kenyons.) The book I mentioned is very frank about Mr. Kenyon and has no axes to grind. Mr McConnell on the other hand was on a mission to discredit the faith movement and naturally wanted to see and present negative things about Kenyon who is regarded as the father of the modern faith movement.
Also, your comments about Mr Kenyon are negatve, and so you should in fact have personal knowledge regarding them before you state them as fact. OTOH, my comments are positive comments. There is no danger in repeating good things about a person.
Mr McIntyre addresses the negative statements made about Kenyon by McConnell and proves that the statements are false. He provides a detailed history of where Kenyon was and where he began his teaching on these subjects. They have nothing to do with "Metaphysical Science", "Science of Mind", "the Unity School of Christianity", "Christian Science", or "New Thought metaphysics". Proof is presented from Mr. Keyons own teachings that he opposed these elements and traught against them.
Before you repeat these stories, I would suggest you reveiw this book and make up your mind from this unbiased source.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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TheScottsMen said:
Like I said, you are going to find garbage written about them. So, hes Christian Science and studied it huh? Prove it. Not by yet another persons opinion, but fact. Prove it....

Well said brother. It is in fact very easy to make up and repeat stories about people. Some of the same people who malign Kenyon also malign Billy Graham, James Kennedy, and virtually every prominate minister presenting the gospel. We should be very careful about what we say about men who are preaching the gospel. The devil loves to take these lies and turn the world against Jesus because of them. I am not saying we should believe everything everyone says... but we should be very careful about believing accusations. Prove them before you repeat them... lest you find yourself on the wrong side!
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
Give me a break...You don't have to know someone personally to research documented facts.
Kenyon's influences can be found in D.R. McConnell's "A Different Gospel," Pgs. 24-56.

Oh really? There are documented "facts" (term used loosely) on file with a previous job that fired me. . .but all are lies made up by the person who just did not like me.

Oh, and we must not forget about all the facts recorded in your influrnces. . .where some of these other people I do know personally. . .whose books I have read. . . and when comparing them alongside the supposed expose's (your influences), they were so incompletely quoted that what was quoted had intirely different meanings from what was actually said. . .

You mean those documented facts?
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
Huh...that's funny, because if we look back a few verses, we also find in 19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
But maybe that was just a one time thing. Then again, if we look a few verses later in verse 24, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."

You see, there is a strong difference between God providing, and God prospering. That's what this passage is talking about by the way. It says God will provide, not God will provide and then give you a new wardrobe.
I wonder what the early church would have thought about this "prosperity message" as they were being lit on fire to be used as torches in Nero's gardens, and fed to lions. I have a feeling they were anxious for their fat paychecks from God.
Fact is, if we were to have heaven on earth, we wouldn't need heaven after death.

As for the other parts in your post, the whole, "the Bible IS God's will for us" line is logically incorrect. When the Bible itself was written, the authors were saying "Follow God's will." Again, that was before the Bible was completed. There are many things in this life that we want, but God knows isn't good for us. Just because we ask for something doesn't mean God has to give it to us. I'll let you in on a little secret. God is not Santa.
God promises to provide, not give us twenty cars, a million dollars, a mansion, etc.

Sooooo, are you saying that what's written in the Bible is actually not what it really means? :scratch:

I think I cleard this with you already dingo. . .you know. . "if you abide in Me and My Word abide in You". If we're abiding in Him and His Word is abiding in us, it's IMPOSSIBLE to ask outside of His will.

If we need it. . .He will supply it. Period. That's what the Word says. If God calls me to go to the mission field and I need a million dollars to do it, then He will supply it. At the moment I don't need 20 cars so I'm not asking for 20 cars and ditto on the mansion.

Besides that. . .who said anything about mansions, millions of dollars and cars? You must be working off those "documented facts" again
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
Sorry, I forgot that I physically have to be the person who is the eyewitness in order to use something as evidence.
Well, we'd better throw out the Bible. After all, it's someone else's testemony on what happened.

Scripture is the inspired Word of God. . .other books are not.
 
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SnuP

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usadingo said:
I just conducted a study that shows how dogs can speak french, but only I can hear them. I can't wait to get it published, because once it's in print, people consider it fact. Well, unless it's the Bible. "It's written by men, so therefore it contains errors. This book here says so." The great hypocricy, I say.
Anyway, those dIseases have scientific causes. There are those who have the symptoms of those diseases, but in all actuality, don't. They're called hypocondriacs. People like Benny Hinn thrive off these so called teachers. Bring people expecting miracles into a room, tell them over and over that miracles will happen, and pretty soon people start feeling better! It's the same technique populerized by gurus and shamen. However, with an actual disease, you can create a conditioned response to where the person feels better. That is until they wake up the next day and try running a mile, or eating 20 candy bars.

I highly suggest that you actually resurch, before comdemning. Pasing judgement without having any facts is not the christ like way. You know nothing of the men that I have discoused or the ministery that I am involved with, yet you have already dismissed them. You should really think about what you are posting before you post, otherwise you only look like a closed minded fool. I know that you are no fool, but if you are really interested in the truth, then you should actually look for it.

If I tell you that the miracles are real and lasting, you tell me that it was all in there minds. But before you ever determine this as fact, shouldn't you atleast have the facts. I have seen more miracles then you could possibly imagine, but you are not even open to the possibility, because your beliefs have already precluded these ideas. What would be the harm in investigating them, rather then hiding from them?
 
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usadingo

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Quaffer said:
Oh, and we must not forget about all the facts recorded in your influrnces. . .where some of these other people I do know personally. . .whose books I have read. . . and when comparing them alongside the supposed expose's (your influences), they were so incompletely quoted that what was quoted had intirely different meanings from what was actually said. . .

You mean those documented facts?
And yet, just like every person I can think of that I've ever seen, met, or heard in the Word of Faith movement, you say nothing. I find it odd that when you type in "Word of Faith" in Yahoo and search, more sites against the movement pop-up than sites for it. And yet, the movement says nothing.
You think if it was all a bunch of misquotes, and these "attackers" had no real evidence, it would be easy to prove them wrong. Yet, none have done that (that hasn't been counterpointed effectively.)
Speaking of the word "counterpoint," there's two things one has to do in a counterpoint.

1. Tell the person you disagree.
2. State the real evidence.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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usadingo said:
Sorry, I forgot that I physically have to be the person who is the eyewitness in order to use something as evidence.

Well... ya, you do! You are the one being held accountable for the words that come out of your mouth (or post). In the legal world it is called second hand testimony or "hearsay". It is not admissable in a court of law and for good reason. You see, someone may read what you have written here and repeat it again, assuming you actually witnessed the things you are saying. Do you want to be held accountable for someone elses story telling? And do you want to be a snare for those who read these things you have written and are decieved by them as you have been? I hope not! You seem like a decent enough fellow, and I would hate to see you hung by another persons tongue. If the world places such a standard on truth, we should be much better than the world in our degree of fairness and truth.

usadingo said:
Well, we'd better throw out the Bible. After all, it's someone else's testemony on what happened.

Come on usadingo...you are smarter than that! I don't think we should elevate the slander and gossip of McConnell to the same level as inspired scriptures.
 
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usadingo

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Quaffer said:
Sooooo, are you saying that what's written in the Bible is actually not what it really means? :scratch:

I think I cleard this with you already dingo. . .you know. . "if you abide in Me and My Word abide in You". If we're abiding in Him and His Word is abiding in us, it's IMPOSSIBLE to ask outside of His will.
::bows head and prays::
Dear Lord, I pray for a flamethrower, a high powered machine gun, and a truck load of grenades to start my own country. In Jesus' name, Amen.
::opens my arms expecting::

If God's will is for us not to have something, no matter how many scriptures we quote, and no matter how many times we pray, it's not going to happen. It's part of being God's CHILDREN and God being the FATHER. The Father knows what's best for his children.

If we need it. . .He will supply it. Period. That's what the Word says. If God calls me to go to the mission field and I need a million dollars to do it, then He will supply it. At the moment I don't need 20 cars so I'm not asking for 20 cars and ditto on the mansion.
Exactly. If we NEED it. God knows our NEEDS and provides for them. Our WANTS are a different story.

Besides that. . .who said anything about mansions, millions of dollars and cars? You must be working off those "documented facts" again
Along with members of Word of Faith churches, yeah. I'm currently working with one guy who believes God is going to bless him with one million dollars without doing anything.
If you watched Benny Hinn's show this last Saturday, you would have seen him on with Steve Munsey. They were on there saying how 2003 is a year of "doubling" since 3 and 7 are both numbers God uses. So as long as we all send in our donations of $77, or $770, and if you're a business $77,000, it will be doubled within the next 60 days. They're still talking about it on his daily shows. At least they were this morning.
How did they know it was going to happen within 60 days? Apparently, the Holy Spirit was telling Munsey this, right on TV as they were speaking. He even said he'd show it with scripture! Well, at least he said a few paraphrased verses here and there. He never actually opened his Bible. He just waved it around. Aparently that's good enough.
Anyway, I did some basic internet research, and aparently Mr. Munsey has being doing telethons every year for the past four years. What's strange is, every year has been the "seventh millenium" when he does some special math equations. 7 is a doubling number, so as long as you send your donations of $37, $77, $370, $770, etc. your gift will be doubled in a matter of days!
Oh, and by the way, this is all documented online. The FCC kinda mandates that programs document their broadcasts.

Now, I'm sure your "documented facts" say otherwise. Here, I'll help you out.
(Some random Word of Faith member)- "He did not say that!" (Title- ?, Copywrite date- ?, Publisher- ?)
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
And yet, just like every person I can think of that I've ever seen, met, or heard in the Word of Faith movement, you say nothing. I find it odd that when you type in "Word of Faith" in Yahoo and search, more sites against the movement pop-up than sites for it. And yet, the movement says nothing.
You think if it was all a bunch of misquotes, and these "attackers" had no real evidence, it would be easy to prove them wrong. Yet, none have done that (that hasn't been counterpointed effectively.)
Speaking of the word "counterpoint," there's two things one has to do in a counterpoint.

1. Tell the person you disagree.
2. State the real evidence.

:scratch: huh? Have you not read any or our posts? The majority at the crusifiction said, "crucify Him" . . .does that mean the majority was correct? Majority means nothing in the Kingdom of God.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
::bows head and prays::
Dear Lord, I pray for a flamethrower, a high powered machine gun, and a truck load of grenades to start my own country. In Jesus' name, Amen.
::opens my arms expecting::

If God's will is for us not to have something, no matter how many scriptures we quote, and no matter how many times we pray, it's not going to happen. It's part of being God's CHILDREN and God being the FATHER. The Father knows what's best for his children.


Exactly. If we NEED it. God knows our NEEDS and provides for them. Our WANTS are a different story.


Along with members of Word of Faith churches, yeah. I'm currently working with one guy who believes God is going to bless him with one million dollars without doing anything.
If you watched Benny Hinn's show this last Saturday, you would have seen him on with Steve Munsey. They were on there saying how 2003 is a year of "doubling" since 3 and 7 are both numbers God uses. So as long as we all send in our donations of $77, or $770, and if you're a business $77,000, it will be doubled within the next 60 days. They're still talking about it on his daily shows. At least they were this morning.
How did they know it was going to happen within 60 days? Apparently, the Holy Spirit was telling Munsey this, right on TV as they were speaking. He even said he'd show it with scripture! Well, at least he said a few paraphrased verses here and there. He never actually opened his Bible. He just waved it around. Aparently that's good enough.
Anyway, I did some basic internet research, and aparently Mr. Munsey has being doing telethons every year for the past four years. What's strange is, every year has been the "seventh millenium" when he does some special math equations. 7 is a doubling number, so as long as you send your donations of $37, $77, $370, $770, etc. your gift will be doubled in a matter of days!
Oh, and by the way, this is all documented online. The FCC kinda mandates that programs document their broadcasts.

Now, I'm sure your "documented facts" say otherwise. Here, I'll help you out.
(Some random Word of Faith member)- "He did not say that!" (Title- ?, Copywrite date- ?, Publisher- ?)

dingo,

You seem to be ranting and not hearing at all what is being said. Do you not understand what "abiding in Jesus and His Word abiding in you" means? Did you not see the part where I said, if we are in this position with Christ then it is impossible to ask amiss?

Also, I'm not talking about Benny Hinn. I'm talking about what the Bible teaches. I'm talking about Jesus. Why do you keep bringing up people when we bring up scripture?
 
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usadingo

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Quaffer said:
Scripture is the inspired Word of God. . .other books are not.
My point is that any time I mention a source, it's thrown out as "mis-quoting people" or flat out wrong, but any source you or any Word of Faith supporter bring up is practically considered divine.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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usadingo said:
My point is that any time I mention a source, it's thrown out as "mis-quoting people" or flat out wrong, but any source you or any Word of Faith supporter bring up is practically considered divine.

Dingo,

I believe it was didaskalos who suggested that you go to the source for your information. Not someone else's version of what they said, but get it for yourself.

There is one particular "exposer" who wrote a book supposedly exposing someone I personally knew. This person artfully even enclude page numbers and supposed quotations and of course his review of what was being said.

Well, I happend to have said book and began to compare them side by side. Each page referred to and each quote referred to I compared.

Shock* The exposer did not seem to have a clear understanding of quoting. I found only parts of statements quoted. . .changing of course the REAL statement.

Going on 2nd hand information is going according to gossip. Get it first hand dingo.

I'm a Bible supporter. I believe what Jesus said. . .all of it. . .not just the part that my circumstances fit in to. To me WOF is standing on the Word in the Faith that He's given all of us. I have faith that God said what He meant and meant what He said.

No matter what group of Chrisitians we are part of there are going to be those who take things off in a direction we don't necessarily agree with. . .but that does not mean we lump it all together and throw the whole thing out, bad and good. . .all because we don't like the way a particular person portrays it.
 
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Quote from E.W. Kenyon "Christian Science, Unity, and other Metaphysical and philosophical teachers of today do not believe that God is a person. They will tell you that He is a perfect mind, but He has no location. It is just a great universal mind which finds its home in every individual. He has no headquarters. It is a mind without a brain, without personality. They do not believe in sin as Paul taught it in the Revelation given to him. They do not believe that Jesus died for our sins, but that He died as a martyr. They do not believe He had a literal Ressurection, a physical Ressurection, but as one puts it, "a metaphysical resurrection." (whatever that means).

If God is not a person and Jesus did not put sin away, then who is Jesus and what is the value of our faith in Him? One of them calls Him "The way-shower". He is not a way-shower. HE IS THE WAY. Their faith in Jesus and their faith in God is, after all, faith in themselves and what they inherently have within themselves.[7]"

Kenyon in his book divine healing

Quote "You must have seen as you have studied this book that healing is spiritual. It is not mental as Christian Science and Unity and other metaphysical teachers claim. Neither is it physical as the medical world teaches. When God heals, He heals through the spirit. When man heals, he must either do it through the mind that is governed by the physical Senses, or he does it through the physical body. You understand that man is a spirit being, and that life's greatest forces are spiritual.[15]"

The differences between Kenyon's teaching and metaphysical teaching on healing has been made distinctly clear. Kenyon believes that God heals through the spirit of man. What orthodox teacher does not believe that? Even the cessatonists believe that the Bible teaches spiritual healing even if they believe that the miracles of healings are no longer for us today. Andrew Murray in his book on Divine Healing said that "Faith is possible only to him who lives in the spiritual world."[16]

The metaphysical cults believe that healing comes through the mind denying it's physical surroundings.

Kenyon goes on to explain how he ministers divine healing in his ministry:


Quote "In our own ministry where we have seen multitudes of people healed of many kinds of incurable diseases they have been healed invariably by the Word of God. Ps. 107:20, "He sent his word and healed them." Sin had brought the disease upon them, but the Word delivered them.[17]"

Kenyon never taught people to DENY reality. Never will such teaching be found in the writings of this great man. On the contrary, Kenyon taught people to place their faith in God's Word. He was simply emulating Simpson who taught, "...be fully persuaded of the Word of God in this matter of divine healing. The Word is the only sure foundation of rational and Scriptural faith."[18] Andrew Murray said, "The Word of God meets as many difficulties in our days as then, and today's needs are equally pressing."[19]

In Kenyon's book, The Two Kinds Of Knowledge, the book that the critics use to make their claims that Kenyon is teaching Gnostic beliefs, Kenyon once again shows the difference between his teaching and that of the Metaphysical cults:

Quote ""...we have sense knowledge religions beginning in idolatry and ending in philosphy and metaphysics. They all, like Hagel, deny the personality of God. The reason is this: Their sense cannot register sensation of the spirit. They can register the beat of the heart, and they know that life is functioning because their heart beats register regularly. But they cannot see, they cannot hear, they cannot feel God. They say God has no personality. They say that God is a great universal mind, without brains with which to function, for had He brains He would be a person. They call this impersonal Mind, "Love," "Goodness," "Perfection." You can see the absolute inability of Sense knowledge to find God by itself."[20]"


Kenyon is NOT Christian Science! You can see it by simply READING HIA DOCTRINE AND STATEMENT OF FAITH. He out right says CHRISTIAN SCIENCE IS WRONG.

Gets your facts right.
 
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