Woman to learn in silence

[Gary777]

hi, havent read the threadand im stupid enuogh to give my view first and read later.

I belive in all ministry gift for woman. The bible had woman prophets, teachers, and i believe in even pastors, evangelists, apostles. I have a interpreatation of 1 cor 14 that actually encourages woman to both propechy and whatever in church and not to be hindered, and Paul actually burns the corintians for following the OT law or cultural pratice here.

I believe 1 tim 2:11-12 must be understood in context. Men must pray with lifted hands. That doesnt mean that WOMAN must not! But as we all know, men tend to be to macho in some cultures to engage in prayermeetings etc. Woman must not rely on too much makeup! Does that mean that MEN can? NO, but he talks to woman becaause this is a woman thing. THen he goes on: In teaching sessions, woman should learn in silence! Does that mean that MEN should NOT learn in silence. No, but GOD HELP ME, im a prayer guy in church and i KNOW that one of the reasons why we dont get to do all the things we want to in our meetings is because some WONDERFUL woman talks like crazy. I want to tell them: can we talk about this later at home, girls? WE want to spend some time shearing some word, and then get to praying here!

Now, in the next vers Paul say he does not allow any woman to teach men. Read the whole sentence and check out the words he use. "autenteho", which is deinfes as "dominate" in Strongs. Dominate is like rising up and be a Jesabel dominate out of the wrong spirit. MEN are not allowed to do this either, btw, but again THIS MAY be a woman thing, more than a man thing. Men have other problems, like those Paul already mentioned. He told them to pray in unity. God help me, its true that Men not only are hard to get into praying, but easy to get into an techincal argument about anything from ecatology to churchleadership and can argue themselves into a angrey churchsplit, instead of praying to God!
So it is not a prohibition for woman to teach the word of God!! Why would we silence 50% of Gods mouthpieces in church? Its so discriminating! Either "in christ there is no difference bewtween man and woman" or it is! And since we know woman in the NT that are mentioned as apostles and teaching MEN (uh oh), we know that Paul is not contradicting this. Why would he call Junia an apostle or allow Priskilla to teach, if he really meant this!?

LETS GET HIGH ON THE MOST HIGH

 

[JennyKatz]

This is actually an issue I've considered and debated and still don't know where I stand on it. Personally speaking, I've never felt comfortable in churches where a woman is pastor. I'm not sure why, since I never heard any teaching that women weren't supposed to be pastors until I started learning about Catholic beliefs. But it still made me uncomfortable. Even now, if I'm looking at a church, I'd rather choose one with a male pastor. But is that a personal prejudice or Biblical teaching?
I know this really added nothing to the debate, but it's my two cents.

 

[Floatingaxe]

BOTH men and women are instructed to learn in silence and subjection. Women were singled out because they were causing a disturbance in the church in Corinth and Paul sent that letter of instruction to correct them.

People down through the ages misinterpret and misapply it because they suffer from the lack of freedom that comes from knowing Jesus Christ fully through the Holy Spirit who teaches us that there is no male or female or any hierarchy in the Kingdom of God.

What interferes with the full knowledge here on this matter is the yet strong vestiges of the pervasive influence of the Greco-Roman empires that indoctrinated all cullture in misogyny. We must thank God in this century that we have, through the influence of Jesus Christ in people, done much work in allowing the equalizing effect of the Holy Spirit in the Church.


May I add: It is only the work of Satan that has so successfully HALVED the effective workforce of the Church of Jesus Christ in the world over the last many centuries! I should think the Lord Jesus could have returned long ago and Satan would be in his chains by now if he wasn't so successful in duping Christians!

 

[revanneosl]

God called me to preach. As I have answered his call, and lived into my vocation, he has abundently blessed me with the gifts and graces necessary to be a fruitful servant to him and to his church. I preach, I administer the sacraments, I visit the sick, I teach the faith, I oversee the life of the community. I have not been a perfect servant, but I have grown in my servanthood for the past 23 years.

You may argue and discuss all you like about the various interpretations of scripture. Surely you are aware that there are points to be made on both sides of this issue. However, it is bootless to pontificate about how the almighty cannot possibly do what he is clearly already doing - which is to say calling women and giving them vocations.

Try this piece of scripture on for size.
Joel 2
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

 

[Floatingaxe]

God called me to preach. As I have answered his call, and lived into my vocation, he has abundently blessed me with the gifts and graces necessary to be a fruitful servant to him and to his church. I preach, I administer the sacraments, I visit the sick, I teach the faith, I oversee the life of the community. I have not been a perfect servant, but I have grown in my servanthood for the past 23 years.

You may argue and discuss all you like about the various interpretations of scripture. Surely you are aware that there are points to be made on both sides of this issue. However, it is bootless to pontificate about how the almighty cannot possibly do what he is clearly already doing - which is to say calling women and giving them vocations.

Try this piece of scripture on for size.
Joel 2
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

 

[Gary777]

(btw, why arent there any woman emoticons!!)

 

[wildboar]

The Scriptures do not say that the command that woman should not teach is tied to a particular incident. This line of reasoning can be used to explain just about anything that the Scriptures teach away.

1 Timothy 2:12 - 3:1 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

The Scriptures tie the prohibition against woman teachers to the creation ordinance. Women are not inferior but God has given them a different role from the man. I believe that God will bless the woman who faithfully changes her children's diapers and cares for them far more greatly than he will the man who abandons his family to go preach the Gospel everywhere. Christianity is not a religion based on what I feel. It's based on what Christ did. If you want a religion based on feelings try out Mormonism.

Unlike 1 Timothy 2, Joel 2 is not dealing with church offices. Joel 2 is prophesying about Pentecost and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Men change diapers.

Jesus elevated women in everything He ever did, and Paul followed suit. Jesus never once admonished women about their speaking or teaching of anyone, as His behaviour with them revealed the very opposite, when you study His life in detail.
We are all called to shout out the good news from the housetops.

Matthew 10:27
What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!

That He spoke to his disciples---which we all are!



Christianity isn't a religion. It is a lifestyle based on a personal relationship with the living God through His Son, Jesus, the Messiah.

 

[Pastor Jimmy]

Men & women are equal in worth yet are to have different roles
The bible is very clear on this 1tim2
The FATHER and The SON are equal yet the Son (Jesus)submitted to the will of the Father and took on a submissive role, in doing this setting an example. He was no less God for doing so.
Men are not worth more for leading. Being a good leader means serving the people your leading. Its not an ego thing it is Gods order.
I encourage all you men out there to stand up and lay your life down and be real men.
Women should not serve as pastors of men.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Women are not worth more for leading either. Our female pastors are not pastors of men. They are pastors of people, which include men, women and children.

 

[OzSpen]

There is considerable support for the silence of women in teaching men in the church in this thread, based on the 1 Timothy 2 passage. I do not conclude this way, based on an exegetical study of the passage, "Must women never teach men in the church?" When I examined 1 Tim. 2:9-15 carefully and in context, I could not conclude as many of you have done. I'm of the view that this passage has been used to silence women in ministry when that was not its intent.

My conclusion is that:

First Timothy 2:9-15 is not a command to prevent all women from teaching in the church for all times. Paul's intention was not to place a permanent limitation on women in the ministry. Rather, these verses were addressed to a problem situation in Ephesus where women were teaching heresy. I endorse Mark D. Roberts conclusion: "So today, if women fail to continue in faith and love and holiness with modesty -- like men who fail similarly -- they should not teach. Ones like these, whether female or male, need to learn in silence and to practice what they learn. But if women have learned, if they have persevered in the Christian faith, if the Holy Spirit has gifted them for teaching, let us not quench the ministry of the Spirit through women. . . We must encourage our sisters as they seek to serve Christ in his frighteningly patriarchal church."

Sincerely,
Oz

P.S. I have pursued this issue in other passages of Scripture:
1. "Women in Ministry in 1 Corinthians."
2. "Women in Ministry: An Overview of Some Biblical Passages."

 

[Floatingaxe]

I agree. Paul was addressing one congregation concering its own difficulty, just as any church leader (or apostle!) would do.

 

[Crankitup]

God called me to preach. As I have answered his call, and lived into my vocation, he has abundently blessed me with the gifts and graces necessary to be a fruitful servant to him and to his church. I preach, I administer the sacraments, I visit the sick, I teach the faith, I oversee the life of the community. I have not been a perfect servant, but I have grown in my servanthood for the past 23 years.

You may argue and discuss all you like about the various interpretations of scripture. Surely you are aware that there are points to be made on both sides of this issue. However, it is bootless to pontificate about how the almighty cannot possibly do what he is clearly already doing - which is to say calling women and giving them vocations.

Try this piece of scripture on for size.
Joel 2
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Hmmmmm.... Preaching for 23 years and you don't know the difference between women prophesying (allowed) and them teaching & or leading men (not allowed). 1 Tim 2:12

Sounds like the "call" was meant for another person. Just because you hear a phone ringing, doesn't always mean it's for you.

 

[OzSpen]

Floatingaxe,

I agree. Paul was addressing one congregation concering its own difficulty, just as any church leader (or apostle!) would do.

Thank you for examining my exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 to show that Paul was addressing an heretical view in that church as 1 Tim. 1:3ff confirms.

The consequences of the conservative closing down of women in public teaching ministry has been enormous in my experience. There are gifted women teachers who come from conservative no-women-in-teaching-men churches who go to the foreign mission field and are teaching groups of men and women, but they would not be allowed to do this at home when they come on furlough.

This also has meant that we push men as Bible teachers and have men in the pulpit and Bible "teachers" who have not been gifted by God and should not be in public ministry -- in my view.

We know that with the coming of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:17 that "God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (ESV). I take a position that prophecy is different from Bible teaching/preaching (but that's for another thread), however men and women are to be involved in prophetic ministry. AND men and women are to teach mixed audiences as Paul was addressing a specific audience in I Tim. 2:8-15. The warning was that "you are to charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations arather than the stewardship from God that is by faith" (1:3-4).

From this context, it indicates that women were among those who were promoting false doctrine and they were to be silenced. May I also add that, by application, all those who promote doctrine contrary to the Scriptures are to be silenced.

We know that in "later times" the Spirit has expressly stated that "some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared . . ." (I Tim. 4:1-2).

As you know, this is the position I expound in the article to which I have given a link above.

Sincerely in Christ,
OzSpen

 

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

Hmmmmm.... Preaching for 23 years and you don't know the difference between women prophesying (allowed) and them teaching & or leading men (not allowed). 1 Tim 2:12

Sounds like the "call" was meant for another person. Just because you hear a phone ringing, doesn't always mean it's for you.

That's what I believed for the first 15 years of my Christian life until I examined 1 Tim. 2:9-15 in depth. My conclusions are here: "Must women never teach men? (an interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:9-15)"

If all women teachers of a mixed audience (male and female) are to be silenced, how then do you interpret, "she shall be saved through child-bearing" (1 Tim. 2:15)? I support the inerrant Scriptures but I do not accept the conservative interpretation that silences women teaching men as my article indicates.

Sincerely,
OzSpen

 

[Crankitup]

....
If all women teachers of a mixed audience (male and female) are to be silenced, how then do you interpret, "she shall be saved through child-bearing" (1 Tim. 2:15)?......

I appreciate the sincerity of your post. I do have an answer for you, but before I give it, I was wondering if you could let me know how YOU think it should be interpreted. It would help me focus where I should place most of my attention in my answer.

Thanking you in anticipation.

 

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

I appreciate the sincerity of your post. I do have an answer for you, but before I give it, I was wondering if you could let me know how YOU think it should be interpreted. It would help me focus where I should place most of my attention in my answer.

Thanking you in anticipation.

With respect, I was the one who asked you for your interpretation. For me to give my response before you reply is presumptuous.

I await your exegesis in context.

Sincerely,
OzSpen

 

[Crankitup]

Crankitup,



With respect, I was the one who asked you for your interpretation. For me to give my response before you reply is presumptuous.

I await your exegesis in context.

Sincerely,
OzSpen

Mate, this isn't Burger King. You can't always 'Have it your way'. If you really want to know how I interpret "save through childbearing", you'll have to let me know how you interpret it first. Otherwise you'll never know, I'm just not going to waste my time. You're the one demanding I deviate from a plain, direct reading of I Tim 2. If you can hinge your argument on your own interpretation of I Tim 2:15, let's hear it. If not, forget it.

 

[wildboar]

If 1 Timothy 2 only applies to a specific situation then why does Paul bring up the creation ordinance at all? The passage is pretty clear and it's really only a certain segment of the church that has problems interpreting it. The liberals have no problem. If you read "The Women's Bible Commentary" published by Westminster/John Knox they just deny that Paul would ever write such a thing. They're at least honest with the text and can understand what it says. Historic Christians have also had no problem understanding the text. It's really just modern men and women who don't want to bend on their egalitarian sensibilities that try to make the text say something different.

 

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

Mate, this isn't Burger King. You can't always 'Have it your way'. If you really want to know how I interpret "save through childbearing", you'll have to let me know how you interpret it first.

If you read all that I wrote, including the link to my article, you would know what I believe about "she will be saved through child-bearing."

Sincerely,
OzSpen