What is your opinion and experience with women with short hair?

[stevevw]

The order is unchanging, true.

But you're missing the part where the Jews had many things wrong about the scriptures (with their flawed understanding of scriptures) before Jesus came.

They thought you had to stick with the Sabbath, stoning some sinners to death, and what else - with absoluteness. There's no room for fairness and mercy. The Jews executed the law without love, without regard for the extenuating circumstances. They used the wrong measures to judge others resulting in unjust outcomes.

The order has always been before Adam and Eve sinned - eternal life, love, mercy, forgiveness, and innocence.

Before they sinned, Eve is not subject to Adam. A "helper" does not mean a lower ranking status. The Holy Spirit is also a "helper" to us. Although Jesus did not speak of it, he broke taboos in his conduct with other women. You can see where Jesus stand on this and it's he's definitely not standing with the Jews on the matter.

However, the culture of the period was quite hostile to women's liberties both from the orthodox Jews and the Romans. This is most likely the reason Paul said/wrote the things he did - to avoid excessive persecution so that early Christianity might survive but he had to say it in a way that also preserves order in order to avoid confusion among his audiences.

Unfortunately, the teaching has brought so much confusion today because we're so distant from their culture. It really doesn't apply to us anymore.

I don't know as this culture you speak of was not just around in Pauls time. It was also around in Abrahams time and even before that. Abraham was the Father of the family who became the ruler of the clans and tribe. So did all the fathers of the family and tribes. This is chosen by God from father to son into the priesthood.

This was then followed to Christ and beyond. This was the same tradition the early Christians followed. Peter and Pauls teachings are based on these traditions and not just the current culture they lived in. In fact we could say that from the beginning until the 20th century it has been this way.

I don't think Christs church and the family have been living in sin in some oppressive patriarchy that was socially constructed for 4,000 years or more and has just been saved by modern egalitarianism.

Rather this was a natural order but it was exploited as bad men often do. But I don't think we should dismiss this natural order of things.

Peter mentions how Sarah was obedient to Abraham and called him lord and Peter said this was an example for wives and it pleased the Lord.

I think this is an inherent order that reflects the Godhead in that there is Christs Body the church and the Headship in the relationship of God the Father and Christ His Son. While being unified as one but also in Christ who became subject and obedient to the Father. Both these aspects are in the Godhead.

This relationship is reflected in marriage and the church where the husband and father are head and the wife is subject to the husband like Christ is to the Father. But also in the husband in that he like Christ is subject to the wife in that he gives his own body in sacrificial love putting the wife above himself.

I think this two way subjection and order is well balanced and needed. Some throw the baby out with the bathwater and percieve any subjection as immoral.

But I think this is a modern idea that everyone should be equal in roles and relationships in the Body and church. Some mistake this divine order as control and oppression but this is a modern idea.

Just as social norms today about marriage are now breaching Gods laws and order with modern egalitarian ideas where everyone should be equal no matter what. Even if that breaches Gods law and order. Whereas I think Gods order in marriage and the church and reality itself has always been there.

In Christ being subject and obedient to the Father He did not think this a power relationship where one is controlled by the other. This was actually empowering, A powerful idea that is radical to modern thinking. God thought this pleasing and not controlling anyone. But can be exploited.

Peter also mentions this in how the Christlike humble and pure obedience of a wife, a servant or anyone who is subject to rulers even unjust ones will expose the injustice and turn evil people to God without a word being spoken. Merely by the Christlike example of humble obedience and purity.

But today its gender and sex wars where its become a competition and fight over rights. Individual and group equality rights are held up over all else. Any deviation or unequal relations are seen through the oppressor and viction lens as immoral.

Yet we know for many good reasons even in Gods natural laws that there are differences and order that are not the result of social constructions.

 

[stevevw]

If you review Genesis, a wife's lowly position in a marriage was due to Eve's sin.

A punishment that was passed down to all wives.

Alongside that punishment was death - Adam and Eve no longer had eternal life.

But Jesus came and we now have a chance at forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

The punishment for Adam and Eve's sin revoked.

If women needed a husband in order to keep the straight path, would that mean women who never got married would die condemned?

I am not sure as I think this order was there before the fall. When God created Adam first and Eve from Adam. God said man needed a helper and not the other way around.

Of course this does not deminish that we are all made in Gods image and are equal with Gods imprint in us and our ability to have relationship with God.

But I think just like man and women have dominion over the animals there is still order within Gods creation. This is not a gender thing but a spiritual mystery of Gods way and how this is expressed in our reality.

Otherwise we have to look at every instance of where God is nvolved in encouraging and even establishing this divine patriarchy as oppression and I don't think God would have had anything to do with such. It was natural that this order came through man in Adam and the holy lin of men to Christ.

Like anything there has to be order and authority as God is a God or order and peace and not chaos. But moder ideology hates order and authority as its agaisnt freedoms and liberalism which allows humans as gods with no power over them.

Also I cannot see how Paul was just aplying some rules and order to not offend the surrounding culture. It seems like Christ is tolerating oppression to keep the peace under the egalitarian worldview.

Paul refers back to Gensis and mentions in 1 Timothy 2: 13 in regards for why women cannot have authority over a man with teachings in the church. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. This seems like before the fall and about the order of creation.

Then we have to start rationalising all the other bible verses that mention husbands are head over the wife, example of Sarah being obedient to Abraham, any mention of the wife being subject and obedient to the husband and all male disciples and it seems overseers and its hard to believe that all this is cultivating an oppressive system over women.

The only reason I think its entertained as oppression is due to moder ideas such as feminism and egalitarianism. But these ideas were not around for near on 4000 years including the time of Christ and soon after.

So I think if anything its moder ideas that are out of step. Though this does not mean that men have abused this natural divine order. This is how satan exploits God by taking what is pure and good and making it ugly and bad.

But as mentioned this divine order has two components. One is the wife and women and the other is the husband and man. The husband and man also have their role and order which is to be like Christ in sacrificial love. This will never oppress women.

So I think both men and women are to fullfill this mysterious relationship for it to work. Its hard when there is evil intent all around which undermines Christs authority and Gods order.

 

[timewerx]

Paul refers back to Gensis and mentions in 1 Timothy 2: 13 in regards for why women cannot have authority over a man with teachings in the church. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. This seems like before the fall and about the order of creation.

Why would God hand it as punishment to Eve after she sinned if the hierarchy is already in effect before she sinned?

It does not make any sense.

 

[RDKirk]

I am not sure as I think this order was there before the fall. When God created Adam first and Eve from Adam. God said man needed a helper and not the other way around.

If you examine the Hebrew word for "help" used there and how it's used in the rest of the Old Testament, it becomes obvious that by "help" God meant "rescue"...because that's how the word is used in the rest of the Old Testament, in most cases referring to God Himself.

 

[prudent_commenter]

Prudent one you say the God cut your desires for carnal pleasures off. And made optional for you. Ok. But is sexual desire a carnal distraction or just normal affection ? You’re not sure if this is for you as yet as you wait upon the will of the God. I’m sure if your will is open to Gods will he will reveal to you soon enough.

Per my understanding it could two possibilities: 1. He cancelled the desire permanently to never be seduced by or want women; or 2. it cancels the desire until the woman that is made for me comes into my life. Once that "one" woman comes, everything might return to "normal".

You say with sexual desire out of the way your thinking and evaluation for a future partner is much more clearer for searching out. But how would premarital sex from someone who is now a child of God exclude them from now being a Godly person with the potential of being a future Godly wife ? It is the God who forgives justifies and purifies is it not ?

For my side, if I were to marry one that fornicated for example, then I would be denying another that waited for this. The virginity is just the icing of the cake. I don't and have never consumed alcohol, neither smoked, nor made bodily modifications of any kind, my mind is unaltered by society, and unaffected by passions. The body has been treated as the home of God. And it would be unfair to a woman that shares the same, to deny her of something similar to her. This is my thinking, and it's probably going to be a biblical marriage, which is frowned upon these days.

I guess we all have standards in how we evaluate as with you and as with us all. But sometimes our standards not be Gods standards and we must always evaluate that. To me personally the good wife is always there for you. It not be determined on her past nor of her husbands past. Even ladies of the night such as Rehab the prostitute married into the Israel of God as many within her profession have done so through the generations of our histories. Anyway food for thought when thinking upon the good future wife.

Well, this is why the woman must come from God Himself. I suppose, I'll recognize it when I'll see it. I cannot make this decision my self.

As to thinking upon becoming a monk. Maybe. Who know. Yu may even find your future partner. Perhaps a Nun down there at the local nunnery Only kidding : ) Prudent One I do wish you well in whatever you choose for the future . God bless. Yours Kathleen

I spend my days in study and prayer. My partaking in society is very rare. It would fit perfectly to the life of a monk. And I would love to do that.