Woman to learn in silence

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

To do so I would have to be brutally honest, and what I have to say may offend. I've given you my view. It doesn't correspond with yours. Let's leave it at that.

The Scriptures require our communication with one another to be

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of theSpirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:1-2)

A requirement for all of us who know the Lord is to demonstrate (even in our communication)

the fruit of the Spirit . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law (Gal. 5:22-23).

What you say and how you say something to a brother in Christ, based on the above teaching, surely would not offend.

In Christ,
OzSpen

 

[Pastor Jimmy]

That is SO OBVIOUS. Take it in context, PLEASE.

It means, NO TALKING while the pastor is talking! Same goes for the men! The trouble was that women were talking out in services, asking for meaning. It was DISRUPTIVE!



*shakes head* Poor Paul...he could be rolling in his grave right now...

Are you refering to the same Paul that also said the following.


12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

and

2 Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

and

As in all churches of the saints.34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Thought so

Maybe it's not me that has him "rolling in his grave"


The last bolded text (v.38) is very interesting. (You get a mention)

It would appear that anyone with your view is not recognized.

OUCH !

 

[OzSpen]

Pastor Jimmy,

Are you refering to the same Paul that also said the following.


12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

and

2 Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

and

As in all churches of the saints.34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Thought so

Maybe it's not me that has him "rolling in his grave"

And is this the same Paul who said: "But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head" (I Cor. 11:5)? She engages in a verbal ministry that includes prophesying!

Please tell me how a wife (a woman) can prophesy (11:5) and be required to "keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak . . ."(I Cor. 14:34)?

It is your interpretation that seems to have created a mammoth contradiction: "prophesy" (11:5) and "keep silent" (14:34) for women. How can this possibly happen?

Also, I Cor. 14:26 says that this is what is to happen "when you come together" (as a group of believers): "Each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation." It does not say, "Each one with the exception of women has a hymn, a lesson . . ." How can women "keep silent" (14:34) and yet "each one" be encouraged to engage in ministries that involve speaking (14:26)?

Sincerely,
OzSpen

 

[Crankitup]

Crankitup,



The Scriptures require our communication with one another to be

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of theSpirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:1-2)

A requirement for all of us who know the Lord is to demonstrate (even in our communication)

the fruit of the Spirit . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law (Gal. 5:22-23).
​

What you say and how you say something to a brother in Christ, based on the above teaching, surely would not offend.

In Christ,
OzSpen

Do you really think I'm unaware of all that? The patronizing way you've just communicated it to me would suggest not.

All I was saying was that I'd have to be brutally honest about the deficiencies in your paper. Many people don't take criticism too well and I believe you could be another.

 

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

All I was saying was that I'd have to be brutally honest about the deficiencies in your paper. Many people don't take criticism too well and I believe you could be another.

My article on women in ministry is on my website in the public domain and I welcome your comments and correction. If I have failed to properly exegete the Scriptures and interpret it in its historical, linguistic and contextual environment, I need correction.

In the name of the Lord I welcome that.

In Christ,
OzSpen

 

[Floatingaxe]

You might not see it but it's plainly obvious to the rest of us.

Wow, that was rude and lacking in fruit.

Thanks. My estimation points on you have significantly lowered.

Matthew 7:20
Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Are you refering to the same Paul that also said the following.


12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

and

2 Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

and

As in all churches of the saints.34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Thought so

Maybe it's not me that has him "rolling in his grave"


The last bolded text (v.38) is very interesting. (You get a mention)

It would appear that anyone with your view is not recognized.

OUCH !

Typical male interpretation. Skewed.

"Head" means "SOURCE".

Women were to be just as quiet as men in order to learn. Paul was dealing with disorderliness in the congregation.

 

[OzSpen]

Floatingaxe,

Women were to be just as quiet as men in order to learn. Paul was dealing with disorderliness in the congregation.

Gordon Fee in his massive and scholarly commentary on I Corinthians in the New International Commentary on the NT (Eerdmans 1987) acknowledges that "the best of all the options" of interpretation of vv. 34-35 is that "some form of disruptive speaking out was going on, which then qualifies the apparent absolutes of v. 34" but he says that "such a view is loaded with its own set of difficulties" (p. 708).

Since Gordon Fee has a long scholarly history in textual criticism (finding a reliable Greek text for the NT), and because he knows of the many "glosses" (words inserted into the text) that are found in copies of texts, he is of the view that vv. 34-35 are "not authentic. If so, then it is certainly not binding on Christians" (p. 708).

I have not read many commentators who support such a view. However, when we consider that I Cor. 11:5 states: "Every wife who prays or prophesies . . ," we know that a woman can't prophesy and be silent at the same time. The silence of all women permanently when the church gathers (as may be suggested by 14:33-34) is contrary to 11:5. Or, could it be that 11:5 is not authentic? I haven't read of that suggestion but it could be out there.

Therefore, in my understanding, your view is the correct one (as quoted above) that there was disorder in the church created by women and it had to be silenced in all the churches where this was happening. But this was not permanently for all times in all the churches throughout history since the first century as 11:5 makes clear.

Or it could be as Fee suggests, the silence of women is a gloss in the text and should not be there.

In Christ,
OzSpen

 

[Crankitup]

Wow, that was rude and lacking in fruit.

For stating a mere fact? You said you couldn't see it. The rest of us can.

James 1:19 Understand this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to take offense and to get angry.

Thanks. My estimation points on you have significantly lowered.

TBH I'm sure no one cares what your 'estimation points' on me are. I know I don't. I'm just being honest.

 

[TonyBalognie]

I don't need to go in to the bible to tell you that wemen have been supressed. In the Coran wemen are born of fire and are full of evil. I know that people will often try and look for excuses to make it seem like what they are doing isn't wrong. Even the bible can be used as a tool to harass people in the wrong hands. Today in our society you will find few christians who believe that wemen were created to serve men. But, the oposite is a very true reality. someone going as far as saying wemen only preach selfish agenda's has lost his way. It is his own selfish agenda that will eventually lead to his own downfall. although, I believe in not following anyone who hasn't gone to seminary. I also, believe that all negative behavior is ultimatly a sin and a great force that damages the soul..

 

[OzSpen]

Crankitup,

James 1:19 Understand this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to take offense and to get angry.
Originally Posted by Floatingaxe

Thanks. My estimation points on you have significantly lowered.
​

TBH I'm sure no one cares what your 'estimation points' on me are. I know I don't. I'm just being honest.

Here you have quoted James 1:19 from the Amplified Bible. You highlight <<slow to take offense>> to point to Floatingaxes response. But the very same vers says that you, my brother, should be <<quick to hear>>

Floatingaxe has pointed to an attribute in your response that she found lowered her estimate of you. If you were truly following and practising James 1:19, you would be <<quick to hear>> and taking notice of the feedback from Floatingaxe.

No brother or sister on this forum should be exempt from being <<quick to hear>> and take notice of feedback. What was your response? <<I'm sure no one cares what your 'estimation points' on me are. I know I don't. >>

God cares and he exhorts that you should be <<quick to hear>> what another Christian says so that you might grow in grace and the knowledge of the Saviour. It's called progressive sanctification.

In Christ,
OzSpen

 

[Floatingaxe]

For stating a mere fact? You said you couldn't see it. The rest of us can.

Go read it again. You made a mistake. I said I COULD see it.

For your rudeness, I deserve an apology.

 

[Crankitup]

Go read it again. You made a mistake. I said I COULD see it.

I thought it was a typo. I thought you were saying "I can't see how ..." and had left off the ''t'. It hadn't crossed my mind that you could possibly have seen my point of view at all.

Sorry.

 

[OzSpen]

Tony,

I believe in not following anyone who hasn't gone to seminary

Where did you get that idea from the Bible? You'd be in deep trouble in some parts of the world. In my country of Australia we have Bible colleges and Christian colleges linked to some universities, but "seminary" does not refer to regular ministry/theological training institutes Down Under. I'd be up the creek if I had to find a seminary in Australia.

Since when did the Bible advocate that a Christian leader/minister had to be seminary trained? I'd like your biblical defense of that theology.

Besides, why are you following a seminary trained person and not saying that you are following Christ as Lord and Master?

Sincerely,
OzSpen

 

[Crankitup]

Crankitup,

Here you have quoted James 1:19 from the Amplified Bible. You highlight <<slow to take offense>> to point to Floatingaxes response. But the very same vers says that you, my brother, should be <<quick to hear>>

Floatingaxe has pointed to an attribute in your response that she found lowered her estimate of you. If you were truly following and practising James 1:19, you would be <<quick to hear>> and taking notice of the feedback from Floatingaxe.

No brother or sister on this forum should be exempt from being <<quick to hear>> and take notice of feedback. What was your response? <<I'm sure no one cares what your 'estimation points' on me are. I know I don't. >>

God cares and he exhorts that you should be <<quick to hear>> what another Christian says so that you might grow in grace and the knowledge of the Saviour. It's called progressive sanctification.

In Christ,
OzSpen

Maybe you missed that in her first post to me she called me judgmental, which I thought was quite ironic really. The tone of our conversation from that point needs to be understood in that light. I would also take your opinion into consideration more if it wasn't for the possibility that it's coloured with some bias due to our disagreement over the topic of the thread.

There's also the issue of forgiving someone when they apologise, which hasn't been forthcoming so far since my apology for an oversight on my behalf.

Carry on.

 

[SarahLee1]

I myself have had a female pastor in our church before and our current pastor's wife is training to become a captain in the Salvation Army (my denomination) and she leads bible study for us and also preaches every now and then. From what I've experienced, they both have been able to preach God's word successfully and I truly believe that God has given them the gift of leadership and preaching. I come from the Salvation Army, where women are able captains and leaders, and I strongly believe that God does not discriminate based on gender at all. We do have different roles but preaching is one that has no gender boundary. I think that this is a denomination-specific issue. I do know that the Catholic church does not allow women bishops, but that is not my issue. Eventually, I do hope that they see beyond such barriers and open up the position to willing and dedicated women who want to serve God that way. My position on this matter is strengthened because I know that the men in Salvation Army feel just the way that I do!! The founder of Salvation Army, William Booth's wife, Catherine Booth, was a keen supporter of women preachers and her husband agreed with her on this.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I thought it was a typo. I thought you were saying "I can't see how ..." and had left off the ''t'. It hadn't crossed my mind that you could possibly have seen my point of view at all.

Sorry.

Of course I see your POV. Only a moron wouldn't. I'm a woman, remember.

Oh, btw--you are forgiven.

 

[DD2008]

There is a female associate pastor in our Church.

 

[Solaris]

Many ex Roman Catholics I know have a far different set of reasons for why the male priests do not want the female clergy monitering them.

When I was a Roman Catholic, we did not have women priests. I believed the reason for this prohibition is the following:

• 1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

• 1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

After searching the Scriptures, and acting like the Bereans, I realized this is not the reason according to God.

Any feedback?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I myself have had a female pastor in our church before and our current pastor's wife is training to become a captain in the Salvation Army (my denomination) and she leads bible study for us and also preaches every now and then. From what I've experienced, they both have been able to preach God's word successfully and I truly believe that God has given them the gift of leadership and preaching. I come from the Salvation Army, where women are able captains and leaders, and I strongly believe that God does not discriminate based on gender at all. We do have different roles but preaching is one that has no gender boundary. I think that this is a denomination-specific issue. I do know that the Catholic church does not allow women bishops, but that is not my issue. Eventually, I do hope that they see beyond such barriers and open up the position to willing and dedicated women who want to serve God that way. My position on this matter is strengthened because I know that the men in Salvation Army feel just the way that I do!! The founder of Salvation Army, William Booth's wife, Catherine Booth, was a keen supporter of women preachers and her husband agreed with her on this.

qualifications of a bishop..
1 tim 3:2... husband to one wife... ??? means you are out of Gods WILL