Woman to learn in silence

OzSpen

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Wildboar,

If 1 Timothy 2 only applies to a specific situation then why does Paul bring up the creation ordinance at all? The passage is pretty clear and it's really only a certain segment of the church that has problems interpreting it. The liberals have no problem. If you read "The Women's Bible Commentary" published by Westminster/John Knox they just deny that Paul would ever write such a thing. They're at least honest with the text and can understand what it says. Historic Christians have also had no problem understanding the text. It's really just modern men and women who don't want to bend on their egalitarian sensibilities that try to make the text say something different.

Because I believe in the inerrant Scripture, I went to the Scriptures to obtain my views. Secular egalitarianism and feminism have not informed my position.

It was in the Scriptures that I found that the customary conservative understanding that excludes women from ministry, has some glaring biblical holes in it. I have examined these in my article for which I have provided a link above.

You claim that the liberals are at least being honest with the text. Are you saying that I, a convinced evangelical, am not being honest with the text?

It's really just modern men and women who don't want to bend on their egalitarian sensibilities that try to make the text say something different

Really?

Sincerely,
OzSpen
 
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Floatingaxe

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Hmmmmm.... Preaching for 23 years and you don't know the difference between women prophesying (allowed) and them teaching & or leading men (not allowed). 1 Tim 2:12

Sounds like the "call" was meant for another person. Just because you hear a phone ringing, doesn't always mean it's for you.

Wow. That is a very judgmental spirit there.

The Holy Spirit doesn't check gender--or race, or age---before He anoints someone, or calls someone to ANY ministry.
 
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Floatingaxe

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If 1 Timothy 2 only applies to a specific situation then why does Paul bring up the creation ordinance at all? The passage is pretty clear and it's really only a certain segment of the church that has problems interpreting it. The liberals have no problem. If you read "The Women's Bible Commentary" published by Westminster/John Knox they just deny that Paul would ever write such a thing. They're at least honest with the text and can understand what it says. Historic Christians have also had no problem understanding the text. It's really just modern men and women who don't want to bend on their egalitarian sensibilities that try to make the text say something different.

Historic Christians have been right on spiritually? How's that?

It has been rough for the Church over the centuries. The RCC overrode everyone, telling them what to believe, reading Scripture to the masses, creating their own unbiblical doctrines. Then, Luther broke that hold.

Christianity is only now experiencing a resurgence of the kind of freedom and power and understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit in these final days.

The Revealer is here in force, opening up our eyes to long misunderstood and misinterpreted truths, and one of those long-held misconceptions is that concerning man's equal partner in ministry--- woman.

I am thankful to be living in these days!
 
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Pastor Jimmy

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I agree. Paul was addressing one congregation concering its own difficulty, just as any church leader (or apostle!) would do.

Who was being addressed here? 1Cor14:33-34
As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak

Well?
 
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Crankitup

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Crankitup,

If you read all that I wrote, including the link to my article, you would know what I believe about "she will be saved through child-bearing."

Sincerely,
OzSpen

Well after going through your article, I found the part where you look at verse 15. I have to say there's precious little I would agree with you on, apart from your commentary on some of the more outlandish interpretations.

At the outset you have endorsed the view that the verse "presents the most theologically perplexing claims of the entire passage." I agree that the verse may be perplexing but I'm afraid I can't see where your conclusions remove any of that perplexity.

My view would be more in line with a synthesis or fusion of the following views;

I Do Not Permit..James Bordwine said:
The final verse says: "Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control" (v. 15). A significant part of Eve's obligation in the marriage relationship was the bearing of children who would be the means by which man would rule over God's creation. It was essential that Eve embrace motherhood. By fulfilling their roles, Adam and Eve could preserve the order that God created and expect His blessings. Therefore, when the apostle refers to women being "saved in childbearing," he intends to communicate that women should do what God intends women to do. Paul uses a literary device known as "synecdoche," in which the part is used to represent the whole. He picks that which uniquely belongs to women, the ability to bear children, and uses it as a figure to represent the whole of a woman's calling. This does not mean that women should do nothing but have children, nor that woman are regenerated by giving birth. Rather, Paul means that women should not seek to do what God intends men to do: teach and exercise spiritual authority.

http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Are-Women-Saved-Through-Childbirth said:
....childbirth for Paul “designates the circumstances” in which Christian women will work out their salvation. It is the sphere in which God-given evidences of their salvation are seen in a way that is distinctly feminine. Though salvation is all of grace, it must be worked out with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Men will express faith, love and godliness in a distinctly masculine sphere. Similarly women will express these same qualities in a way that marks their femininity

Saved Through Childbearing? A Fresh Look at 1 Timothy 2:15 Points to Protection from Satan’s Deception said:
Interpreting 1 Timothy 2:15
The close parallel of 1 Timothy 5:14-15

We start by examining the only other passage in the New Testament where the word for "bearing children" is used, a close parallel passage in the same epistle. In 1 Timothy 5:14-15 we read, "Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan." Three observations arise from a comparison of this passage with 1 Timothy 2:15: first, both passages deal with the proper role of women; second, in 1 Timothy 5:14-15 the phrase "to have children" (teknogonein; compare teknogonia in 1 Tim. 2:15) is linked with the expression "to keep house" (oikodespotein). It may be that Paul used the phrase "childbearing" in 1 Timothy 2:15 as a shorthand for the woman's involvement in the domestic sphere. This would alleviate the difficulty of applying the verse to childless women, single or married, since concern for one's family and the home are not limited to women with children.
The third observation pertains to Paul's concern that women be kept safe from Satan. In 5:14-15 Paul explicitly refers to Satan as the enemy from whom women are to be kept safe: "for some have already turned aside to follow Satan." And how is this to happen? Women (in this case young widows) will be kept safe from Satan if they devote themselves to marriage, family, and the home. Our study of the close parallel passage in 5:14-15 sends us therefore back to 1 Timothy 2:15 with the following questions: from whom or what are women to be "saved" there? Could it be Satan and his efforts to subvert the woman's natural and spiritual callings? And what does "childbearing" mean? Does it merely refer to the birthing process or extend to the entire realm of marriage, family, and the home?

"Saved Through Childbearing" In 1 Timothy 2:15

Arguably, the question of the meaning of the term commonly translated "save" (sōzō) lies at the heart of the interpretation of the present passage. A look at the usage of sōzō in the New Testament reveals that the Gospels usually employ the term in the sense of "to be healed," "to be made whole," "to get well." Thus the woman who sought to receive physical healing from Jesus thought, "If I just touch his garments, I shall get well" (Mark 5:28 par.). But the meaning assigned to sōzō in the Gospels can hardly be the correct one in 1 Timothy 2:15. How can a woman be "physically healed" or be "made whole" by having children? Note also that people often approached Jesus and were healed physically, but sometimes there is no indication that they were also saved spiritually (see e.g. John 5:1-18).
Paul uses the term sōzō differently. In the vast majority of instances, the expression refers to spiritual (religious) salvation. Romans 5:9 may serve as an example: "Much more then, having now been justified by his [Christ's] blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him." However, this meaning for sōzō can be applied to 1 Timothy 2:15 only with difficulty. As mentioned, Paul's teaching of salvation through childbearing in 1 Timothy 2:15 would appear to stand in direct conflict with his teaching of salvation by grace elsewhere in his letters, a fact that even the best efforts at reconciling these two strands of Pauline teaching cannot entirely escape. In our search for possible alternatives, we turn to several remaining passages in Paul's writings where the more common meaning of "spiritual salvation" cannot easily be squared with the context. This last group of passages includes the following references:

  • 1 Corinthians 3:15: "If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire";
  • 1 Corinthians 7:16: "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?";
  • 1 Timothy 4:16: "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you";
  • 2 Timothy 4:18: "The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom."
Let us briefly consider each of these instances. In 1 Corinthians 3:15, the phrase "shall be saved" may include the notion of experiencing ultimate spiritual salvation. Yet the reference is still unusual. A person's "salvation" here seems to be spoken of in terms of an escape from danger, a common Greek idiom in Paul's day (see Josephus, Vita 304; Strabo, Geog. 3.5.11; 9.2.11). This reflects the common non-religious Greek usage of sōzō in the sense of physical preservation from any kind of danger, be it enemy forces, shipwreck, or any other harm. The specific danger was implied or explicitly stated in the context. Christian usage then merely applied this secular usage to the religious sphere by identifying the danger from which people were "saved" as sin, death, Satan, or the curse.
Still, the original secular usage occasionally persists in the New Testament, such as in Acts 27-28 where sōzō is found several times with reference to Paul and his fellow travellers' preservation from death and dangers at sea (sōzō: 27:20, 31; diasōzō: 27:43, 44; 28:1, 4).
The difficulty with the next two references, 1 Corinthians 7:16 and 1 Timothy 4:16, is, of course, that a spouse cannot in an ultimate sense said to be the "savior" of his or her marital partner, just as Timothy can hardly to be said to literally "save" his hearers. For in Scripture it is always God, not man, who saves. Moreover, seeking to alleviate this difficulty by distinguishing between ultimate and intermediate agents, in the present case God on the one hand and the spouse or Timothy on the other, does not entirely resolve the problem. It may work in 1 Corinthians 7:16, where the reference is to the conversion of an unbelieving spouse, a conversion of which the believing spouse may be said to be the intermediate agent.
But the reference in 1 Timothy 4:16 is to Timothy's ongoing efforts to "save" his hearers by watching his life and doctrine closely. In what sense can Timothy be said here to be the intermediate agent of his hearers' salvation? A better solution involves the recognition that being "kept safe" from harm or danger is a perfectly legitimate meaning for the Greek term sōzō. In that case, Timothy is merely said to help keep his hearers safe from the dangers of succumbing to false teaching in their beliefs and practical life application.
Finally, 2 Timothy 4:18 ("The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom") also seems to carry the connotation of "providing safe passage to" in the sense of preservation from all (spiritual) harm, an understanding corroborated by the fact that translations such as the NIV or the NASB translate sōzō here with "bring [Paul] safely" into God's heavenly kingdom.
What do we learn from all of this? Simply put: that sōzō, the term in the passive frequently rendered "be saved," may in certain contexts denote a person's physical or spiritual preservation from danger or harm. This is further confirmed by the fact that three standard Greek lexicons (Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich; Liddell and Scott; and Louw and Nida) all include preservation from danger in the range of meaning of sōzō. Is "be kept safe from" therefore the meaning of sōzō in 1 Timothy 2:15? (Note that the NASB translates the passage as follows: "But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children.")
Indeed, this rendering would cohere well with the passage already discussed which is found in the same epistle, 1 Timothy 4:16. Will Timothy, by his example and teaching, literally "save" his hearers who are already Christians? Of course not. Or will he perhaps "save" them in some other sense, such as "ensure their (ultimate) salvation" on the last day? If so, this end-time reference point is not made clear in the context which seems to be concerned with Timothy's present ministry and believers' present experience. Arguably, a better understanding of the passage is that Timothy will help to keep believers safe from falling into the errors of the false teachers, heretics who, in turn, are frequently unmasked in the Pastorals as instruments of Satan (see e.g. 2 Tim. 2:26).
 
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wildboar

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The paper suffers from numerous problems. One of the problems is that statement:
Except for this one sentence in 1 Tim. 2:12, the gifts of the Spirit to the church have never been differentiated on the basis of sex in the entire New Testament.

1 Timothy and Titus both say that an elder/bishop must be the husband of one wife. The assumption is that the elder is a man. To be honest, I don't believe that 1 Tim. 2:2 is dealing specifically with the office of minister. It was already assumed that women were excluded from this role. What Paul was adressing were those who thought women could be teachers which were a somewhat lesser role. Paul says no and his reasoning is based on the creation narrative. Jesus was a man, he appointed 12 men to be his Apostles--although there is evidence in the New Testament for the deaconess/servant-widow (who was supposed to be over sixty and only have been married once) there is no clear evidence of any women serving as elders or pastors.

To argue from Galatians 3 that women can serve as ministers is absurd--Paul is not addressing that issue there. You could just as easily conclude from the passage that every single person is a homosexual since there are no longer male nor female.

I think its the height of arrogance for people to think that nobody knew how to read the Bible prior to the 20th century.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Women back then had NO POWER to make husbands of more than one man. Only men could have the power to have more than one wife.

Women were severely marginalized. Paul knew that. Therefore, a command for women to be wives of only one husband would be deemed RIDICULOUS!!!

Think about the context of the age!
 
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Floatingaxe

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Who was being addressed here? 1Cor14:33-34
As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak

Well?

That is SO OBVIOUS. Take it in context, PLEASE.

It means, NO TALKING while the pastor is talking! Same goes for the men! The trouble was that women were talking out in services, asking for meaning. It was DISRUPTIVE!



*shakes head* Poor Paul...he could be rolling in his grave right now...
 
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wildboar

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Polyandry did exist as well as polygyny. Greeks and Jews for the most part had abandoned both by the time of the New Testament. Paul literally says that the bishop should be a "one woman man" and is probably even saying that a bishop should not be someone who has been married a second time even if the husband's first wife died. Polygamy was pretty much gone anyhow in that particular culture.

Paul also goes on to talk about what the character of the wife of the man who desires the office of bishop should be like. Why wouldn't he say husband or wife if gender were not an issue? Or is he advocating lesbianism?

1 Tim. 2:15 seems to direct women who are pursuing some sort of teaching position in the church back to the very high calling that God gave them.

1 Timothy 2:14-15 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she (Eve) will be saved in childbearing (through the birth of Christ) if they (women in general) continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Paul points to a case in which a woman (Eve) attempted to take on the role of a man and of the disastrous consequences. I would argue that a woman attempting to be a pastor is just as foolish as a man trying to bear children (yes I saw the television special but it was a confused woman who was having a baby, not a man).
 
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OzSpen

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Floatingaxe wrote:
I agree. Paul was addressing one congregation concering its own difficulty, just as any church leader (or apostle!) would do.
Pastor Jimmy responded:
Well? Who was being addressed here? 1Cor14:33-34
As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak

Well?
What is going on here? Who is correct? Floatingaxe or Pastor Jimmy? Both are taking different approaches.
First Corinthians 14:33-35 states, "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

What are women supposed to do, according to this passage? They "should keep silent." This is an accurate translation of the Greek, sigaw . Being a present tense command, the meaning is that women are to continue to keep silent. It is the same verb as that used in I Cor. 14: 28 where, if nobody is present in the church gathering to interpret "tongues," the person moved upon to exercise the gift of tongues is to "keep silent."
What are women not permitted to do in the church? They are not "to speak." This is the standard Greek verb for speaking, lalein ( from lalew ), meaning "speak . . . to have and use the faculty of speech, in contrast to one who is incapable of speaking."

A. God is the God of truth and does not speak with a forked-tongue.


This is the problem. How is it that the God of truth, who does not lie, tells women that they can verbally express their ministries in the church gathering (I Cor. 11:5 and 14:26), and yet in 14:33-35 he tells them to "keep silent"?
Isn’t this contradictory and in opposition to the very nature of the God of truth?



B. To speak and to be silent do not make sense.


Could something else be going on here that relates to our understanding of the text and its application to all churches for all times? The evidence points in that direction.


Take a look at these verses and their context:


1. There was confusion in the Corinthian church (14:33) and God wanted peace instead of disorder.

2. Could it be that the women were contributing to this confusion by engaging in speaking that was disrupting the church gathering? This was not happening in just one church (Corinth), but also "in all the churches of the saints" (14:33). It was a widespread occurrence in the early Gentile church and Paul was forced to address it.

3. This problem of women contributing to disorder and confusion in the church gathering, is suggested by 14:35 where the women are told that "if there is anything they desire to learn" then they should "ask their husbands at home." Were they seeking to learn in the church gathering and it was resulting in rowdy confusion?

4. If "it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church," it cannot mean that she cannot speak at all for all times in all churches throughout church history, as I Cor. 11:5 and 14:26 make clear. It has to mean that it is shameful for a woman to engage in disruptive behaviour while in the church gathering and so contribute to the confusion in the church meeting. This is a silencing of the women in "all the churches of the saints" (v. 33). The inference is that it applied to all of the churches as women seem to have been the culprits in creating the confusion. The corollory is that if men were contributing to similar disorder and confusion when the church gathered, men would be given instructions to "shut up" in the gathering. But this was not a permanent instruction for silence, but simply to deal with an occurrence in some early church gatherings.

5. This temporary silence of women in all the churches would stop the confusion, quit the disruption, and "all things" would then "be done decently and in order" (v. 40).

6. It is a tragedy that this passage has been applied by some/many church leaders to all women in all churches throughout the existence of the church, to silence women in public ministry among a mixed audience of men and women.

C. A more reasonable understanding

W
hile the above explanation may not be acceptable to those who hold firmly to the conservative, traditionalist view of the permanent silence of women in the church’s mixed gathering, I cannot see any other way out of it, without making God a liar or a perpetrator of contradictory messages. Such would be blasphemy!

This also seems a more reasonable explanation in light of God’s views of the change of women in ministry in the New Covenant (see Acts 2:17ff; I Cor. 14:26).

In Christ,
OzSpen
 
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OzSpen

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Crankitup,

Well after going through your article, I found the part where you look at verse 15. I have to say there's precious little I would agree with you on, apart from your commentary on some of the more outlandish interpretations.

At the outset you have endorsed the view that the verse "presents the most theologically perplexing claims of the entire passage." I agree that the verse may be perplexing but I'm afraid I can't see where your conclusions remove any of that perplexity.

My view would be more in line with a synthesis or fusion of the following views;

You don't like my exposition of 1 Tim. 2:15. I didn't expect that you would, but you did not tell me why.

Then you provide lengthy quotes from others, claiming that yours is a synthesis of these positions. But you provide no brief synthesis so that I am clear about what you believe I Tim. 2:15 states when it says that "she shall be saved through child-bearing."

In Christ,
OzSpen
 
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Crankitup

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Crankitup,

But you provide no brief synthesis so that I am clear about what you believe I Tim. 2:15 states when it says that "she shall be saved through child-bearing."

In Christ,
OzSpen

You want brevity from me, yet I had to read through your 7 page article to find out what you believed about it.

Anyway, to save me from too much typing, and to be brief, my position corresponds with the three views I quoted. Wherever they might differ on a particular point, the last view I quoted would prevail.
 
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Crankitup

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The Holy Spirit doesn't check gender--or race, or age---before He anoints someone, or calls someone to ANY ministry.


The cry of many women disobeying scripture's edicts in this is; "But I've been called!" There are many church positions the Bible doesn't demonstrate any pattern of requiring a specific call to. In many cases you only have to aspire to or desire the role and then meet the qualifications. Any appeals to a direct call from God are highly questionable if you don't meet the list of qualifications required in scripture.

By way of example;

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside ....

So after recognising an aspiration or desire, the aspirant needs to fulfill every other listed qualification before they should be considered for the role. It's not enough to merely possess an ability to teach for instance (something many women have), but you must be a sober-minded, man who isn't money hungry etc etc.
 
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Floatingaxe

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The cry of many women disobeying scripture's edicts in this is; "But I've been called!" There are many church positions the Bible doesn't demonstrate any pattern of requiring a specific call to. In many cases you only have to aspire to or desire the role and then meet the qualifications. Any appeals to a direct call from God are highly questionable if you don't meet the list of qualifications required in scripture.

By way of example;

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside ....

So after recognising an aspiration or desire, the aspirant needs to fulfill every other listed qualification before they should be considered for the role. It's not enough to merely possess an ability to teach for instance (something many women have), but you must be a sober-minded, man who isn't money hungry etc etc.


No one really experiences a "call" apart from the Lord readying every person through his or her life to be placed by God Himself in that role.

So, for a woman or a man to say that they are called is moot.

Wherever Paul says "he", one may include "she" also.
 
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Crankitup,

You want brevity from me, yet I had to read through your 7 page article to find out what you believed about it.

You are still avoiding the issue. You have not told me why you disagree with my interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 and "she will be saved through child-bearing" (ESV).

Dr. Gordon Fee, a mighty fine Greek exegete, provided this interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15:

More likely what Paul intends is that woman's salvation, from the transgressions brought about by similar deception and ultimately for eternal life, is to be found in her being a model, godly woman, known for her good words (v. 10; cf. 5:11). And her good deeds, according to 5:11 and 14, include marriage, bearing children (the verb form of this noun), and keeping a good home. The reason for his saying that she will be saved is that it follows directly out of his having said "the woman came to be in transgression" (New International Biblical Commentary: 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MASS, 1988, p. 75).
Sincerely,
OzSpen
 
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Crankitup

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No one really experiences a "call" apart from the Lord readying every person through his or her life to be placewd by God Himself in that role.

So, for a woman or a man to say that they are called is moot.

I do wish you would make up your mind;

Wow. That is a very judgmental spirit there.

The Holy Spirit doesn't check gender--or race, or age---before He anoints someone, or calls someone to ANY ministry.
 
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Crankitup

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Crankitup,
.....You have not told me why you disagree with my interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 ...

To do so I would have to be brutally honest, and what I have to say may offend. I've given you my view. It doesn't correspond with yours. Let's leave it at that.
 
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Floatingaxe

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I do wish you would make up your mind;

I can see why you'd think my mind is wavering there!

We are all CALLED to minister one way or t'other!

A truly anointed person doesn't set his or her cap for the office. The Lord graduates a person by His anointing.

 
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