William Tyndale - Regeneration precedes faith!

[bitwise]

William Tyndale (1409 - 1536 A.D.), the human vessel by which the Lord gave us the Bible in the English language, and who was burned and strangled by the Pope and his ilk, said this in his commentary on 1John 2:29,

"If ye know that he is righteous, know that all that woorke righteousnes are borne of him." - 1Jn 2:29​

"Our nature is to work wickedness and is blind to righteousness. And then it follows that we must be born anew in Christ before we can either do or know what is righteous. And in him we must first be made righteous before we can work righteous works. This conclusion is contrary to that held by the Pope, for he says that works do make the man righteous. But Christ’s doctrine says that the man makes the work righteous. The Pope’s doctrine states, a righteous man springeth out of righteous works. But Christ’s doctrine states, righteous works spring out of a righteous man, and a righteous man springeth out of Christ.The Pope says, the works make the man righteous which before was wicked. Christ says, the works declare that the man is righteous, but the man was first made righteous in Christ, and the Spirit of Christ taught him what righteousness was, healing his heart, making him consent thereto, turning his desire to righteousness and the works thereof." - William Tyndale, "William Tyndale's Commentary on 1John", 1John 2:29​

I love that, because the same wicked heresies that God's servants fought against in old time are the same heresies His servants fight against today. Truly, there is no new thing under the sun.

-bit

 

[cygnusx1]

It is also true that one of the reasons Tyndale was burned was that he denied fallen man had free-will to turn to God .........


Just as Luther was asked to burn his own books , one of which is now a big seller , 'The Bondage Of The Will'.


The flesh hates being told it is in bondage to sin......... fallen man likes being pampered and lied to.

 

[bitwise]

It is also true that one of the reasons Tyndale was burned was that he denied fallen man had free-will to turn to God .........


Just as Luther was asked to burn his own books , one of which is now a big seller , 'The Bondage Of The Will'.


The flesh hates being told it is in bondage to sin......... fallen man likes being pampered and lied to.

Yes, I agree, fallen man likes to think he is in control somehow.

Another thing I find interesting, is that the same people who believe in free-will and turning themselves to God like to say that their Bible was faithful translated by Godly men filled with the Holy Spirit, and yet tend to reject everything that Tyndale believed and was burned at the sake for. Hmm...

-bit

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes, I agree, fallen man likes to think he is in control somehow.

Another thing I find interesting, is that the same people who believe in free-will and turning themselves to God like to say that their Bible was faithful translated by Godly men filled with the Holy Spirit, and yet tend to reject everything that Tyndale believed and was burned at the sake for. Hmm...

-bit

yes , that was one of the things Spurgeon remarked upon , no Arminians were martyred!

 

[Van]

1 John 2:29 (NASB) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.

So it does not follow that we must be born again to know God is righteous. Paul tells us the Jews pursued the righteousness of God through the works of the Law, so unregenerate folks can know that God is righteous.

The rest of Tyndale's commentary is absolute on the money. And if he only meant that we must be given a new heart and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ to "know intimately" the righteousness of God, then he is on target throughout. After we are born again, we become His workmanship, created for good works. Before that, we do not know how to do good works for all our works are as filthy rags.

 

[cygnusx1]

1 John 2:29 (NASB) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.

So it does not follow that we must be born again to know God is righteous. Paul tells us the Jews pursued the righteousness of God through the works of the Law, so unregenerate folks can know that God is righteous.

The rest of Tyndale's commentary is absolute on the money. And if he only meant that we must be given a new heart and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ to "know intimately" the righteousness of God, then he is on target throughout. After we are born again, we become His workmanship, created for good works. Before that, we do not know how to do good works for all our works are as filthy rags.

Yes , all our works are filthy rags ............ but why is that?

what is it about the human condition that is soooooooooo bad that even our good works are counted as filthy?

and how can we if we are evil do good ?

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter? http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jam/3/12.htmlhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jam&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjvhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjv
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Jam&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjvhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Jam&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjv
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjvCan the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so [can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.



James 3:11,12

 

[Van]

I have answered these questions over and over. But here it goes again.
God is holy, separated from unholiness. Our sin has created a separation between God and ourselves. (Isaiah 59:2) In this sinful condition, no matter what we do, all our acts of righteousness are as filthy rags. Picture a man washing dishes with muddy water. He washes and says to his wife, how is that and she says, all your works are filthy dishes. He can wash those dishes in muddy water till the cows come home, they will get no cleaner until they are washed in the blood of Jesus.

Folks, fallen mankind cannot do good, but if we trust in Christ, God reckons our faith, as depraved as it may be, as righteousness.

No one would turn to God if God had not revealed Himself to man. They might turn to a "god" of their creation, but not to the God of the Bible. So revealing grace precedes faith. We love God because we heard and learned from the Father that He first loved us. So, by the numbers, Revealing Grace precedes our trusting in God and His Christ, our Faith in the Gospel precedes God's saving Grace where God chooses us based on accepting our faith, and sets us apart, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, by spiritually baptizing us into Christ. During our spiritual baptism into Christs death, we are converted, our body of flesh (sin) is removed and we are made alive together with Christ, we are regenerated or born again from above as a new creature in Christ. Therefore our faith precedes New Covenant Regeneration.

 

[cygnusx1]

you have completely missed the point Van ...............


a man who cannot do good , cannot choose God!
For in truth , choosing God is the Highest good!

 

[Ben johnson]

a man who cannot do good , cannot choose God!
For in truth , choosing God is the Highest good!

Scripture for this?

I read instead, that "the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing; but God is well-pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

The only way to believe THROUGH foolishness, is for something to BE foolishness at the time they BELIEVE. Thus it is "belief" that ends the "foolishness" (to the perishing) and causes it to be "power" (because they are no longer perishing, but through belief are being saved.)

1Cor1:18-21.

The flesh hates being told it is in bondage to sin......... fallen man likes being pampered and lied to.

"Do you not know that when YOU submit YOURSELVES to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to the one you obey? Either of sin (resulting in death), or of obedience resulting in righteousness. Thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart ...and became slaves of God.

THEREFORE consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom6:16-22, 11

"Submit YOURSELVES"
"Obedient FROM YOUR (own) HEART"
"Consider yourselves dead/alive"

Somehow all that becomes:
"GOD submits YOU"
"Obedient from the heart that God INSTALLED (monergistically, unasked)"
"You WILL (unavoidably/irresistibly) consider yourselves as God predestined/elected you"

...how does that work, Cygnus, Bitwise?

"If ye know that he is righteous, know that all that woorke righteousnes are borne of him." - 1Jn 2:29

All those who do righteous, are of God; those who do wickedness are of the devil. This compliments 1Jn3:7-10.

But look at this:
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ, is (was) born of God... the one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe has made Him a liar, BECAUSE he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son." 1Jn5:1,10

You're trying to say that "whoever is of God, WAS born of God BEFORE he believed". But it's far more cognizant to understand: "whoever is of God, whoever believes, WAS born of God THROUGH his belief", (was born WHEN he first believED) isn't it?

In 1Jn5:10, what is the CAUSE of the condemnation? God's choice? Or unbelief?

"By grace THROUGH FAITH/BELIEF have you been saved."

Not "by grace through grace (and THEN you believe)"...

I don't think anyone has answered Titus 3:5-6, and the undeniable connection to Acts10:45 (11:17).

Titus says "Our Savior Jesus" --- meaning, "SAVED" (believers).
Titus says "Holy Spirit POURED through our Savior Jesus" --- clearly "poured = belief".
Titus says "regeneration through the POURED Spirit".

Luke says in Acts 10:44-47, "fell/received/gifted/POURED Holy Spirit"; 11:17 says "gifted the Holy Spirit AFTER BELIEVING!"

Is there any way to assert that the "ekcheo-poured" of Titus3:6, is somehow DIFFERENT than the "ekcheo-poured" of Acts10:45?

Please tell me how this does not establish forever that "regeneration is AFTER belief/faith"?

 

[cygnusx1]

Scripture for this?

I read instead, that "the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing; but God is well-pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

The only way to believe THROUGH foolishness, is for something to BE foolishness at the time they BELIEVE. Thus it is "belief" that ends the "foolishness" (to the perishing) and causes it to be "power" (because they are no longer perishing, but through belief are being saved.)

1Cor1:18-21.
"Do you not know that when YOU submit YOURSELVES to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to the one you obey? Either of sin (resulting in death), or of obedience resulting in righteousness. Thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart ...and became slaves of God.

THEREFORE consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom6:16-22, 11

"Submit YOURSELVES"
"Obedient FROM YOUR (own) HEART"
"Consider yourselves dead/alive"

Somehow all that becomes:
"GOD submits YOU"
"Obedient from the heart that God INSTALLED (monergistically, unasked)"
"You WILL (unavoidably/irresistibly) consider yourselves as God predestined/elected you"

...how does that work, Cygnus, Bitwise?All those who do righteous, are of God; those who do wickedness are of the devil. This compliments 1Jn3:7-10.

There are many Scriptures that show God is the prime mover in our salvation , why do we work ? because God works!
Paul himself said "I worked more than all of you ,. yet not I , it was the Grace of God "
You would be arguing that Paul was in error , that he gave Too much credit to God!

also , have you considered your calling ........... a calling that you seem to infer is open to going down the drain , yet what sayeth Scripture ?

"Those Whom He Called He Also Justified"

see , no room for error , no room for bens conditions ...................
go on ben add your bit in there , because it really isn't clear enough unless you make it depend upon finicky mind changing fexible man.

But look at this:
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ, is (was) born of God... the one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe has made Him a liar, BECAUSE he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son." 1Jn5:1,10

You're trying to say that "whoever is of God, WAS born of God BEFORE he believed". But it's far more cognizant to understand: "whoever is of God, whoever believes, WAS born of God THROUGH his belief", (was born WHEN he first believED) isn't it?

In 1Jn5:10, what is the CAUSE of the condemnation? God's choice? Or unbelief?

"By grace THROUGH FAITH/BELIEF have you been saved."

Not "by grace through grace (and THEN you believe)"...

I don't think anyone has answered Titus 3:5-6, and the undeniable connection to Acts10:45 (11:17).

Titus says "Our Savior Jesus" --- meaning, "SAVED" (believers).
Titus says "Holy Spirit POURED through our Savior Jesus" --- clearly "poured = belief".
Titus says "regeneration through the POURED Spirit".

Luke says in Acts 10:44-47, "fell/received/gifted/POURED Holy Spirit"; 11:17 says "gifted the Holy Spirit AFTER BELIEVING!"

Is there any way to assert that the "ekcheo-poured" of Titus3:6, is somehow DIFFERENT than the "ekcheo-poured" of Acts10:45?

Please tell me how this does not establish forever that "regeneration is AFTER belief/faith"?

[/QUOTE]

"you believe not (unbelief) because you are NOT my sheep" ......... there , if they had been God's sheep they would have believed !

you are arguing (against reason) that men who are at war with God , who have minds in darkness , who are depraved and love their depravity can change , but they are typified as creatures who:

“works of the flesh [human nature]: hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath...”Gal 5:19-21

“...they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction....who set their mind on earthly things.” Phil 3:18-19

“having their own conscience seared...” 1 Tim 4:1

“Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! ...Nor did they know how to blush.” Jer 6:15

“...those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh.” Rom 8:5

“You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matt 16:23

“out of the heart proceed evil thoughts... fornications... blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man.” Matt 15:19-20

Never satisfied: "...have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." Eph 4:19

Driven by lusts: "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves." Ro 1:24

No understanding: "Professing to be wise, they became fools.... as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind...." Rom 1:22, 28

Separation from God: Unbelievers "walk in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God...." Eph 4:17-18

Under a curse: "...we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath." Eph 2:3

Spiritually dead: "you... were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to... the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience ...." Eph 2:1-2

"...without Christ... and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." Eph 2:12

 

[Ben johnson]

There are many Scriptures that show God is the prime mover in our salvation , why do we work ? because God works!
Paul himself said "I worked more than all of you ,. yet not I , it was the Grace of God "
You would be arguing that Paul was in error , that he gave Too much credit to God!

Agreed. But you say "He operates in grace through the faith He INSTILLS", I say "He operates in grace through our voluntary faith".

"Those Whom He Called He Also Justified"

Context says "those who LOVE GOD". There is a succession --- those who love God and are called according to His purpose, He foreknew, and He predestined-to-be-Christlike; those whom He predestined, He called --- those whom He called He justified --- those whom He justified He glorified."

"Called according to His purpose", embraces Jn6:40 --- that "all who see and believe may have eternal life".

"Those who love God ...He called", completely allows the reality that "He called everyone ELSE, too". What separates the "called-UNSAVED", from the "called-SAVED", is that "whom-He-foreknew" is identically "they-who-loved-God". It connects directly to Matt22:2-14; everyone was called, some CAME, some declined (for "business" or "fields"). And of those who came, some came SINCERELY ("put-on righteousness"), some came insincerely (kept their filthy-selves).

There is nothing at all in what Jesus said about "the KING interfering in their CHOICE"; Jesus plainly asserts that they "freely chose". There is no way around the final verse, "many are called but few are chosen". This ruins the idea that "God does not call the UNCHOSEN" --- Jesus said He does.

"you believe not (unbelief) because you are NOT my sheep" ......... there , if they had been God's sheep they would have believed !

WHAT would they have believed, Cygnus? We can't take stuff outta context.

Jews: "If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
Jesus: "I told you (that I'm the MESSIAH), and you won't believe (that I'm the Messiah!); you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (because you have not believed in Me, that I am of the Father). If ANYONE enters through Me (believes!) he shall be saved (shall BECOME My sheep!), and shall go in and out and find pasture (shall BECOME My sheep!)." Jn10:25,26,9

Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah, because Peter believed in Jesus. (Matt16:17) This connects identically to Jn8:42 (if God was your Father [believed/followed God], then you would love Me); and Jn5:46 (if you believed Moses, then you would believe Me).

you are arguing (against reason) that men who are at war with God , who have minds in darkness , who are depraved and love their depravity can change , but they are typified as creatures who:

None of those verses assert "utter depravity". God's sincere call to salvation, overcomes man's depravity in enough measure so that he can believe.

“...they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction....who set their mind on earthly things.” Phil 3:18-19

"If you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things that are on earth." Col3:1-2 How is it that you don't see "volition" and "free will", in how we set our OWN MINDS either on earthly things (destruction), or heavenly things (eternal-life)? This verse in Colossians completely refutes what you were saying, doesn't it?

“having their own conscience seared...” 1 Tim 4:1

Actually, that's verse "2". Verse ONE speaks of "some falling away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." Again, "guaranteed-eternal-security" is refuted, isn't it?

Separation from God: Unbelievers "walk in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God...." Eph 4:17-18

"This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer as the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance in them, because of the hardness of their heart; ...you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him ...lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holyness of truth." Eph4:17-24 Read the rest of the chapter; I think you will see how severely Predestinationism is defeated. It's not JUST that the unbelievers "walk in darkness, excluded from the life of God", it's that WE are charged to not walk ALSO in darkness JUST LIKE THEY DO!!!

Spiritually dead: "you... were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to... the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience ...." Eph 2:1-2

We were made alive "through FAITH", Cygnus. "Obedience" is voluntary in Romans6:15-17, and obedience is voluntary in Hebrews12:7-9; indeed, that Hebrews passage says "if we reject His discipline, then we are NOT sons but illegitimate; SHALL we not rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?"

Cygnus --- beyond the discussions and arguments --- you and I have a rapport; in spite of our differences, we are Christian brothers. We agree on some things, disagree on others; but fellowship in love in common service to our Lord. In your heart is passion for Christ; true desire to follow Him and be what He wants. There can be no doubt of that. Between your words love and kindness clearly show; as only those who truly KNOW Jesus can. Please look back at this post --- I really think you will see how completely refuted the "predestination position" is. You have a choice --- you can try to deal with what has been said, to "explain the verses cited here" in terms of "predestined-election" (I really think you cannot), or to ignore them and we shall continue the discussions.

Whichever way we go, it will not be unprofitable; He will be glorified, we will strengthen each other, and all others who participate (even if only lurking-and-reading), I pray will grow stronger in Him.

This is the common goal that unites us; Calvinists, Arminianists, Responsible-Grace proponents; Baptists, Presbyterians, Charismatic, Catholic; Methodist, AOG, Greek Orthodox. Every one of us claims to serve Jesus; He has promised that "if you seek Me you will find Me."

Soon Jesus will return. Those denominational boundaries will turn to smoke and blow away; what will remain, is the love we have shared, the kindness and common commitment we have with our Lord Jesus.

We are friends now. We will be friends forever.

I'm OK with that. (More than OK, very pleased!)

 

[cygnusx1]

Agreed. But you say "He operates in grace through the faith He INSTILLS", I say "He operates in grace through our voluntary faith".
Context says "those who LOVE GOD". There is a succession --- those who love God and are called according to His purpose, He foreknew, and He predestined-to-be-Christlike; those whom He predestined, He called --- those whom He called He justified --- those whom He justified He glorified."

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit ben , God gave me faith when He gave me His word.... a characteristic of fallen man is that he is unfaithful .He doesn't trust God , he prefers a lie to the truth and he is blind.

"Called according to His purpose", embraces Jn6:40 --- that "all who see and believe may have eternal life".

"Those who love God ...He called", completely allows the reality that "He called everyone ELSE, too". What separates the "called-UNSAVED", from the "called-SAVED", is that "whom-He-foreknew" is identically "they-who-loved-God". It connects directly to Matt22:2-14; everyone was called, some CAME, some declined (for "business" or "fields"). And of those who came, some came SINCERELY ("put-on righteousness"), some came insincerely (kept their filthy-selves).

There is nothing at all in what Jesus said about "the KING interfering in their CHOICE"; Jesus plainly asserts that they "freely chose". There is no way around the final verse, "many are called but few are chosen". This ruins the idea that "God does not call the UNCHOSEN" --- Jesus said He does.
WHAT would they have believed, Cygnus? We can't take stuff outta context.

I am certain I have told you this before ben ........... there are TWO callings , you are mixing them up .
There is the outer calling , God calls all men indiscriminately ...... this is uneffectual.
Then there is the INNER calling , God calls His Elect .... this is always effectual .......... "those whom he called he also Justified .... and Glorified"
When Jesus preached he used parables , this was new and men questioned the use of them , but Jesus said He used parables to speak the truth openly and to interpret the parables privately!
"To you (the elect) it has been given , to those outside it has not been given"
then Jesus praised God for hiding the truth from the wise and learned and for revealing them only to babes"

along with this truth is the amazing truth of particular revelation .
who knows who the Son Of God is ?
The Elect.
How do they know ?
God has revealed it to them , they have NOT worked it out for themselves , they are not 'bright' enough .... it is the center of our faith , the pinnacle of our calling and it is a gift!

(Jesus said...) All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11. 27

Jews: "If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
Jesus: "I told you (that I'm the MESSIAH), and you won't believe (that I'm the Messiah!); you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (because you have not believed in Me, that I am of the Father). If ANYONE enters through Me (believes!) he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture ." Jn10:25,26,9

Cygnus --- beyond the discussions and arguments --- you and I have a rapport; in spite of our differences, we are Christian brothers. We agree on some things, disagree on others; but fellowship in love in common service to our Lord. In your heart is passion for Christ; true desire to follow Him and be what He wants. There can be no doubt of that. Between your words love and kindness clearly show; as only those who truly KNOW Jesus can. Please look back at this post --- I really think you will see how completely refuted the "predestination position" is. You have a choice --- you can try to deal with what has been said, to "explain the verses cited here" in terms of "predestined-election" (I really think you cannot), or to ignore them and we shall continue the discussions.

Whichever way we go, it will not be unprofitable; He will be glorified, we will strengthen each other, and all others who participate (even if only lurking-and-reading), I pray will grow stronger in Him.

This is the common goal that unites us; Calvinists, Arminianists, Responsible-Grace proponents; Baptists, Presbyterians, Charismatic, Catholic; Methodist, AOG, Greek Orthodox. Every one of us claims to serve Jesus; He has promised that "if you seek Me you will find Me."

Soon Jesus will return. Those denominational boundaries will turn to smoke and blow away; what will remain, is the love we have shared, the kindness and common commitment we have with our Lord Jesus.

We are friends now. We will be friends forever.

I'm OK with that. (More than OK, very pleased!)

Amen brother !!!!
I have never known you come across as spiteful or haughty or even offensive...... long may it continue.

 

[Ben johnson]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit ben , God gave me faith when He gave me His word.... a characteristic of fallen man is that he is unfaithful .He doesn't trust God , he prefers a lie to the truth and he is blind.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control --- against which there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires..." Gal5:22-24 "Faithfulness" is a facet of those who have been saved; it does not mean "saving-faith is instilled".

It says "those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh". This fits with Romans8:12-14, where Paul says "we can live after the flesh (if we do we must die) --- OR by the Spirit putting to death the flesh that we live."

I am certain I have told you this before ben ........... there are TWO callings , you are mixing them up .

Two callings? Can you support that with Scripture?

There is the outer calling , God calls all men indiscriminately ...... this is uneffectual.
Then there is the INNER calling , God calls His Elect .... this is always effectual .....

Can you please explain what kind of "calling" it is, that cannot save? Suppose when you were little and playing outside, your Mom came to the door and whispered: "Cygnus! Lunch-time!!!" Has she actually CALLED you, or not? How can there be a "calling" to those who can never COME?

..... "those whom he called he also Justified .... and Glorified"

No, it says "those whom He foreknew, WHO LOVED GOD". I disagree with your "two callings"; I see "two callED".

1. The called who RESPONDED (Matt22:10)...
2. The called who REFUSED (Matt22:5,11-13)

Please explain why you see a difference between the calling of those who came, and those who refused. "Many called --- few chosen" --- what influenced them being "chosen"? Their RESPONSE? Or the King's calling?

When Jesus preached he used parables , this was new and men questioned the use of them , but Jesus said He used parables to speak the truth openly and to interpret the parables privately!
"To you (the elect) it has been given , to those outside it has not been given"
then Jesus praised God for hiding the truth from the wise and learned and for revealing them only to babes"

Matt13:11-17 says: "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven; but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given ...whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak in parables, because while seeing the do not see, and while hearing they do not hear nor do they understand. Thus the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
'You will keep on hearing
but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing,
but will not perceive;
for the heart of this people has become dull,
and with their ears they scarcely hear;
and they have CLOSED THIER (OWN!) EYES lest they should see
and (closed their ears) lest they should hear
and understand with their heart and return
and I should heal them.

[sup]16[/sup]But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. [sup]17[/sup]For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see and did not see it; and to hear what you hear and did not hear it."

Tell me, Cygnus --- was it GOD who "closed their eyes and ears", or was it they THEMSELVES? Can you deny that verse 17 is identical in intent to Matt11:24, where Capernaum and Bethsaida and Chorazin were condemned because they saw but WOULD not believe? They "closed their own eyes and ears", TOO?

Same as in Jn5:40, "You WILL NOT come to Me that you may have life"...

"To you (the elect) it has been given , to those outside it has not been given"
then Jesus praised God for hiding the truth from the wise and learned and for revealing them only to babes"

along with this truth is the amazing truth of particular revelation .
who knows who the Son Of God is ?
The Elect.
How do they know ?
God has revealed it to them , they have NOT worked it out for themselves , they are not 'bright' enough .... it is the center of our faith , the pinnacle of our calling and it is a gift!

(Jesus said...) All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11. 27

But "unless YOU BECOME converted and become AS children, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven." Matt18:3-4. This reflects 1Cor1:18-21, the "wisdom of the world is foolishness, and the foolishness of God is wisdom". And plainly says that "men CHOOSE to become as children"...

You haven't responded about how Col3:1-2 refutes what you were saying about Philip3:18-19. Or how Eph4:17-24 refutes what you were saying about Eph4:17-18. Why would he say "do not walk in ignorant darkness like the heathens do", if our "walking-in-darkness" wasn't a true possibility?

long may it continue.

 

[cygnusx1]

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control --- against which there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires..." Gal5:22-24 "Faithfulness" is a facet of those who have been saved; it does not mean "saving-faith is instilled".

for the last time ben .............. faith is a gift!!!

Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf, WEB
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because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ASV[/font]
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Because to you it has been given in the cause of Christ not only to have faith in him, but to undergo pain on his account:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BBE[/font]
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because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also,[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DBY[/font]
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For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] KJV[/font]
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For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WBS[/font]
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For you have had the privilege granted you on behalf of Christ--not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WEY[/font]
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because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer; [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]YLT[/font]

It says "those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh". This fits with Romans8:12-14, where Paul says "we can live after the flesh (if we do we must die) --- OR by the Spirit putting to death the flesh that we live."
Two callings? Can you support that with Scripture?

Of course I can .
There is a calling that is not efficient ......... the classic case is Pharoah!
then there is a calling that is always efficient ..... those called were Justified and glorified! Romans 8

Can you please explain what kind of "calling" it is, that cannot save? Suppose when you were little and playing outside, your Mom came to the door and whispered: "Cygnus! Lunch-time!!!" Has she actually CALLED you, or not? How can there be a "calling" to those who can never COME? No, it says "those whom He foreknew, WHO LOVED GOD". I disagree with your "two callings"; I see "two callED".

was Pharoah called by God to repent and let God's people go ?
Of course he was!
Was it a simple command ?
Yes!
Was it God's hidden will for Pharoah to obey ?
NO!!!!

1. The called who RESPONDED (Matt22:10)...

2. The called who REFUSED (Matt22:5,11-13)

Please explain why you see a difference between the calling of those who came, and those who refused. "Many called --- few chosen" --- what influenced them being "chosen"? Their RESPONSE? Or the King's calling?

Many were called few were chosen ............ my sheep hear my voice and they come to me.
The reason others didn't come is because the didn't believe , and they didn't believe because they weren't the Lord's sheep!
That is what Jesus said and I stand by it ........ I see no reason to mess with it , attempting to make it fit the Arminian scheeme is crass unbelief.

Matt13:11-17 says: "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven; but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given ...whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak in parables, because while seeing the do not see, and while hearing they do not hear nor do they understand. Thus the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
'You will keep on hearing
but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing,
but will not perceive;
for the heart of this people has become dull,
and with their ears they scarcely hear;
and they have CLOSED THIER (OWN!) EYES lest they should see
and (closed their ears) lest they should hear
and understand with their heart and return
and I should heal them.

No one denies the Jews were responsible ben , yes they closed their eyes and ears ........ but there is a remnant chosen by grace who were spared that sin!!!

[sup]16[/sup]But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. [sup]17[/sup]For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see and did not see it; and to hear what you hear and did not hear it."

Tell me, Cygnus --- was it GOD who "closed their eyes and ears", or was it they THEMSELVES? Can you deny that verse 17 is identical in intent to Matt11:24, where Capernaum and Bethsaida and Chorazin were condemned because they saw but WOULD not believe? They "closed their own eyes and ears", TOO?

The answer to your question is BOTH!!!

Same as in Jn5:40, "You WILL NOT come to Me that you may have life"...
But "unless YOU BECOME converted and become AS children, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven." Matt18:3-4. This reflects 1Cor1:18-21, the "wisdom of the world is foolishness, and the foolishness of God is wisdom". And plainly says that "men CHOOSE to become as children"...

go back and find out why the believer is NOT of this world!!!

You haven't responded about how Col3:1-2 refutes what you were saying about Philip3:18-19. Or how Eph4:17-24 refutes what you were saying about Eph4:17-18. Why would he say "do not walk in ignorant darkness like the heathens do", if our "walking-in-darkness" wasn't a true possibility?

because it IS a possibility ben!

it always amazes me that you think I would disagree with you on human responsibility quotes ........ I believe in it far more than you do!!!

 

[Ben johnson]

for the last time ben .............. faith is a gift!!!

Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf, WEB

Cygnus, that verse is perfectly compatible with the idea that "God grants salvation (which by its nature includes suffering) to all who will believe/receive Him".

Of course I can .
There is a calling that is not efficient ......... the classic case is Pharoah!
then there is a calling that is always efficient ..... those called were Justified and glorified! Romans 8

But was Pharaoh hardened and excluded from God's provision, because of God's unilateral decision --- or did Pharaoh have a say in his own disbelief?

Many were called few were chosen ............ my sheep hear my voice and they come to me.
The reason others didn't come is because the didn't believe , and they didn't believe because they weren't the Lord's sheep!
That is what Jesus said and I stand by it ........ I see no reason to mess with it , attempting to make it fit the Arminian scheeme is crass unbelief.

And I haven't heard any convincing argument to disregard Jn10:9 --- in meaning that "everyone who enters through Jesus BECOMES His sheep, THEN knows His voice and follows Him"...

The very wording of "many called few chosen", demonstrates that equal sincere calling occurred to those who WOULD not believe. How else can we interpret Jn5:39-47? "You WILL not come to Me that you may have life; IF you believed Moses, THEN you would believe Me."

No one denies the Jews were responsible ben , yes they closed their eyes and ears ........ but there is a remnant chosen by grace who were spared that sin!!!

The passage was offered as "proof that GOD closed their eyes/ears SO THAT they could not believe" --- I quoted Jesus saying "they closed their OWN eyes/ears"...

The answer to your question is BOTH!!!

No, it can't be both; either it was not given to them (by God) TO believe (He closed their eyes/ears), or their unbelief was their own choice (they closed their own eyes/ears)...

go back and find out why the believer is NOT of this world!!!

Because they believe. And because they unbelieved is the reason for condemnation. Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10.

because it IS a possibility ben!

it always amazes me that you think I would disagree with you on human responsibility quotes ........ I believe in it far more than you do!!!

Cygnus, it's not possible if we're predestined --- because "walking in darkness" is not saved...

 

[bitwise]

I know that you and cygnusx1 are currently discussing things, but I just wanted to make a brief comment about one thing,

But was Pharaoh hardened and excluded from God's provision, because of God's unilateral decision --- or did Pharaoh have a say in his own disbelief?

Although there may be an allusion to Pharaoh choosing to remain in disbelief we must recognize that Pharaoh was absolutely raised up and decreed by God for His purposes. The problem Ben with your position of Pharaoh acting under his own free-will is contradictory to the true claim that the Bible is fully inspired by God.

The logical conclusion of your belief that man has free-will and chooses to follow God or not, contradicts the true claim that the Bible is fully inspired by God. Under the view that man has free-will and follows God under his own volition, leads to the logical conclusion that the Bible simply happened by chance rather than being inspired and predetermined by God for His purposes from the foundation of the world.

Under your position, Pharaoh just happened to be in the right place at the right time. If Pharaoh wouldn't have hardened his heart, then God's plan (if you can say he has one) would have been foiled and God wouldn't have been able to show His power and declare His name throughout the earth.

You'll make the claim that God controls some events, like creating the world and creating Adam, but you'll deny that God purposefully built the fall into the creative act for His purposes, and preordained that Adam would fall.

You'll make the claim that God controls some events, like sending the rain that flooded the world, but you'll deny that God raised up Noah for His purpose and condemned everyone else.

You'll make the claim that God controls some events, like giving Abraham and Sarah a son (Isaac), but you'll deny that God controls all events, like calling out Abraham and Sarah to give them a son (Isaac).

My point is, is the Bible fully inspired by God, or did it all just happen by chance? If it's fully inspired, then every single event happen 100% according to the perfect predetermined decree of God.

Therefore, you and I do not enter through the door that is Jesus and become sheep, rather Jesus said, "I am the door OF THE SHEEP" - Jn 10:7. Only the sheep enter through the door and shall be saved.

-bit

 

[pcwilkins]

Bitwise, excellent post. You've hit on one of the major flaws in Arminianism - it leads to man running the show, and God simply reacting to man's actions.

For example, if Paul had chosen not to follow Christ, God would have had to think quickly to find someone else to write Paul's epistles! Such reasoning may sound nice to man, who likes to think he is in control, but it severely grates with an omnipotent, omniscient, God.

Some even believe that God doesn't know when the world will end, but that He will end the world once enough people have 'decided' to be saved! Just shows the lengths that this 'man-centred' doctrinal position can cause people to run to.

Peter

 

[johnny_redeemed]

1 John 2:29 (NASB) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.

So it does not follow that we must be born again to know God is righteous. Paul tells us the Jews pursued the righteousness of God through the works of the Law, so unregenerate folks can know that God is righteous.

I think it is best to deal with each verse in its context. Paul did not write 1 John, so we need to look at how John is using this verse. Do you think Paul is contradicting John? Or is John contradicting Paul? If not how do you understand 1 John 2:29 in its context?

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus, that verse is perfectly compatible with the idea that "God grants salvation (which by its nature includes suffering) to all who will believe/receive Him".

ben , you see but you don't see , you hear but you don't hear ...... the scripture I quoted has gone straight over your head as is evident from your reply ........ a real shame.You are so stuck in your 'dogma' you just cannot receive the truth.

But was Pharaoh hardened and excluded from God's provision, because of God's unilateral decision --- or did Pharaoh have a say in his own disbelief?

Why do you ask , don't you know ?
God hardened Pharoah and Pharoah hardened himself ....... deny it if you want , it is scripture.

And I haven't heard any convincing argument to disregard Jn10:9 --- in meaning that "everyone who enters through Jesus BECOMES His sheep, THEN knows His voice and follows Him"...

You don't become a sheep , you either are one or you are another symbolic creature. ....... wolf , dog , goat , swine , mule , etc etc etc .....

The very wording of "many called few chosen", demonstrates that equal sincere calling occurred to those who WOULD not believe. How else can we interpret Jn5:39-47? "You WILL not come to Me that you may have life; IF you believed Moses, THEN you would believe Me."

Why bring up the sincere calling ........... no one I know disagrees with you .... God does sincerely 'offer' life for all who will take it.
You say , "You cannot believe that as well as TULIP " .....
can't I ?
I do!!!!

The passage was offered as "proof that GOD closed their eyes/ears SO THAT they could not believe" --- I quoted Jesus saying "they closed their OWN eyes/ears"...
No, it can't be both; either it was not given to them (by God) TO believe (He closed their eyes/ears), or their unbelief was their own choice (they closed their own eyes/ears)...Because they believe. And because they unbelieved is the reason for condemnation. Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10.

Of course it can be both ben ........... why is your understanding of Biblical things so one dimentional ?
Widen your understanding Brother.

Cygnus, it's not possible if we're predestined --- because "walking in darkness" is not saved...

again I beg to differ , there are times when even the Elect of God do walk in darkness and they are still saved .......

''He who does not love his brother walks in darkness ...........''

King David , a man after God's own heart , didn't walk in the light when he commited adultery and murder did he?

 

[johnny_redeemed]

You don't become a sheep , you either are one or you are another symbolic creature. ....... wolf , dog , goat , swine , mule , etc etc etc .....

You are funny!