For whom He foreknew

Carl Emerson

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Maybe it is true that God is outside of time, but I doubt it. For how could God be surprised by man's sin and regret making him?

I think we have to consider the weight of Scripture.

The matter you raise is associated with God's response at a moment of time.

If your present position is that God is not outside of time then the many prophesies concerning the life of Jesus would not exist.

The Book of Revelation would be removed from the Cannon.

Jeremiah Isaiah Joel Haggai etc. all declared future events inspired by God's foreknowledge. One would need to bin these as well.

Just maybe God is indeed outside of time ?
 
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Carl Emerson

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God could not know or save people in such a situation, He could not have known about them.

I am beginning to wonder if we have the same God...

Scripture and the creeds support an omniscient God able to save to the uttermost.
 
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atpollard

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Maybe it is true that God is outside of time, but I doubt it.
Carl is more eloquent in his responses. I will simply state:

I strongly disagree.


Isaiah 46 [NKJV]
8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am
God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,

11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it
.​

1 Chronicles 16[NKJV]
36 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel From everlasting to everlasting! And all the people said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD.​

Psalm 41[NKJV]
13 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel From everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen.​
Psalm 90[NKJV]
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You [are] God.

Psalm 103[NKJV]
17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children,​

Psalm 106 [NKJV]
48 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel From everlasting to everlasting! And let all the people say, "Amen!" Praise the LORD!​
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I think we have to consider the weight of Scripture.

The matter you raise is associated with God's response at a moment of time.

If your present position is that God is not outside of time then the many prophesies concerning the life of Jesus would not exist.

The Book of Revelation would be removed from the Cannon.

Jeremiah Isaiah Joel Haggai etc. all declared future events inspired by God's foreknowledge. One would need to bin these as well.

Just maybe God is indeed outside of time ?
The passage is Genesis clearly shows God was surprised by man's sin, and wished He did not create them.

Gen 6:6-7 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

If He was really outside of time, and that is how He prophesies it would not make sense.

God can still control future events, He need not be outside time to prophecy Jesus or any event coming up. As we see with David God authors people lives.

Psa 139:15-17 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!

We see above that when David was in the womb a book was written for him, with the things he could potentially achieve. I say potentially because our stories do change based on our actions.

There was a young woman who had a vision of heaven, after fasting, she said God showed her books with our stories in them. But the stories were not linear, they changed based on what we prayed into being, how we live, interacted etc.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I am beginning to wonder if we have the same God...

Scripture and the creeds support an omniscient God able to save to the uttermost.
You misunderstand what I am saying. Of course, God can save them. But I can't be bothered to explain what I meant. Not only can God save them, but He can also save all men.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love. The cross is given to all people you see out there, not some preselected club.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You misunderstand what I am saying. Of course, God can save them. But I can't be bothered to explain what I meant. Not only can God save them, but He can also save all men.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love. The cross is given to all people you see out there, not some preselected club.
Yes... His Love goes out to all, but not all accept...

This was a pretty strong statement... "Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love..."

Which indicates you don't understand my position on the matter.


Would you like to snip the following verses out of your bible ???

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will...

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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No. There is no select group "assigned to salvation". God wants all to be saved.

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected club.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

We see Jesus' Sacrifice was given to all people, not a elect group.

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (with in 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.​

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.​

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...​

All of the few "foreknown" references in the Bible can refer to God knowing in advance that people would believe in Him, and before creation having a plan for them.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

We see the order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

  1. We receive God's words
  2. We obey God's words
  3. God loves the person who obeys
  4. God then gives the person He loves the Holy Spirit
This shows man's "actions are important in the salvation journey.

The OT teaches personal accountability also:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

The above scripture shows our choices, not a predetermined choice by God, determines our outcome and salvation.

Are we following a) Scripture, b) The Church, c) and Jesus, or are we following a doctrine that drives people away from the Love of God. Based upon around 3 scriptures, that can have duel meanings.
Jesus died on the cross, redeeming ALL mankind...I agree.
In this discussion we recognize that not all accept this gift of salvation.
God foreknew this fact. I believe in predestination and that since faith is a gift, and thus salvation is a gift, that this is the state of unchanged, unregenerate sinners were born into...pointing to God's hand in ALL these matters.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Yes... His Love goes out to all, but not all accept...

This was a pretty strong statement... "Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love..."

Which indicates you don't understand my position on the matter.


Would you like to snip the following verses out of your bible ???

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will...

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

1) Yes God decreed the way that salvation would occur before the world was founded. He chose the way people would be saved, He chose us in Christ. He predestined those who would believe to be saved.

2) As for Revelation 13:8 it is miss quoted. The actual scripture says:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1683683450903.png


It is the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world.

As for:

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If a person's name is entered into the book the moment they believe. You would expect their name to have never been there.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Yes... His Love goes out to all, but not all accept...

This was a pretty strong statement... "Your doctrine denies God's saving power and love..."

Which indicates you don't understand my position on the matter.


Would you like to snip the following verses out of your bible ???

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will...

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
In my last post, I made an incorrect statement. I clarify.

I was doing some research and I am probably wrong to translate the verse as I said. Have a look at this for some clarity To what does the time clause connect in Revelation 13:8?

If we look up the Greek word apo G575 it means from (Greek Concordance: ἀπὸ (apo) -- 482 Occurrences), not before. It has the connotation of being a starting point moving out to another location. In Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 9:26 we see this has the meaning of being from creation moving forward over the generations.

Luk 11:50 ThatG2443 theG3588 bloodG129 of allG3956 theG3588 prophets,G4396 which was shedG1632 fromG575 the foundationG2602 of the world,G2889 may be requiredG1567 ofG575 thisG5026 generation;G1074

Heb 9:26 For thenG1893 mustG1163 heG846 oftenG4178 have sufferedG3958 sinceG575 the foundationG2602 of the world:G2889 butG1161 nowG3568 onceG530 inG1909 the endG4930 of theG3588 worldG165 hath he appearedG5319 to put awayG1519 G115 sinG266 byG1223 theG3588 sacrificeG2378 of himself.G848


So it is possible to translate both:

Rev 13:8 AndG2532 allG3956 that dwellG2730 uponG1909 theG3588 earthG1093 shall worshipG4352 him,G846 whoseG3739 namesG3686 are notG3756 writtenG1125 inG1722 theG3588 bookG976 of lifeG2222 of theG3588 LambG721 slainG4969 fromG575 the foundationG2602 of the world.G2889

And

Rev 17:8 TheG3588 beastG2342 thatG3739 thou sawestG1492 was,G2258 andG2532 isG2076 not;G3756 andG2532 shallG3195 ascendG305 out ofG1537 theG3588 bottomless pit,G12 andG2532 goG5217 intoG1519 perdition:G684 andG2532 they that dwellG2730 onG1909 theG3588 earthG1093 shall wonder,G2296 whoseG3739 namesG3686 were notG3756 writtenG1125 inG1909 theG3588 bookG975 of lifeG2222 fromG575 the foundationG2602 of the world,G2889 when they beholdG991 theG3588 beastG2342 thatG3748 was,G2258 andG2532 isG2076 not,G3756 and yetG2539 is.G2076

As

The people were/were not inscribed into the Book of Life from the beginning of time forward.

Meaning they were progressively added over the generations, or conversely they were not added as the generations progressed outward.


Although I don’t feel it is impossible to translate it with a deterministic meaning, it shows that it need not mean the book was filled up before creation with a list of names of people that are saved.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hey - I have studied some Greek but it has not been a specialization for me.

However there are folks on CF who are much more able, so hopefully they can pitch in.

My first two references are translated 'before' and this must be for a reason.
 
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Hey - I have studied some Greek but it has not been a specialization for me.

However there are folks on CF who are much more able, so hopefully they can pitch in.

My first two references are translated 'before' and this must be for a reason.
It is purely the translators, preference. The word can not literally mean "before", we see two examples here:

Matthew 14:2 Prep
GRK: αὐτὸς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν
KJV: he is risen from the dead; and
INT: he is risen from the dead

Matthew 14:13 Prep
GRK: αὐτῷ πεζῇ ἀπὸ τῶν πόλεων
KJV: him on foot out of the cities.
INT: him on foot from the towns

Neither:

he is risen before the dead
him on foot before the towns

makes any sense. So the word is not literally meaning "before", rather "from".

The real issue is personal preference when it comes to how is it interpreted, in a from-going-forward manner, or purely the point of origin.

Because I don't believe in Predestination, for good reasons, I prefer to use the phrase in the same way as Luke 11:50, and Hebrews 9:6.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes ones theology can influence translation.

But I believe God Himself has watched over the translation of His Word otherwise we have a human story.

Given you admit to strongly dismissing belief in predestination I would like to hear from others regarding the Greek usage.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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...

But I believe God Himself has watched over the translation of His Word otherwise we have a human story.

...
I am not trying to be contry just showing this is not always the case. We have the New World Translation of the Bible, which is a horrible translation, it is 100% based on the false doctrine that Jesus is not God. Many people believe that.

So when looking at things through a predestination lens, we have the Reformation doctrine of Predestination, it is not beyond thought to think some of those translators would have also written according to their understanding and bent.

We can't say just because one person used the word "before" it is truth.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I am not trying to be contry just showing this is not always the case. We have the New World Translation of the Bible, which is a horrible translation, it is 100% based on the false doctrine that Jesus is not God. Many people believe that.

So when looking at things through a predestination lens, we have the Reformation doctrine of Predestination, it is not beyond thought to think some of those translators would have also written according to their understanding and bent.

We can't say just because one person used the word "before" it is truth.

Yes I agree, that is why I invite Greek scholars from other church streams to comment on the Greek for balance.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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What I see continually in these discussions is the muddying of the waters by failing to appreciate the difference between God choosing the Elect for salvation before time began on the one hand, and mans limited 'free will' to resist His Spirit in life on the other.
You've left out the crucial alternative, making it look (to me, not an outsider) like a false dichotomy.

To foresee, is not to choose for us.

Now possibilities map themselves against the backdrop of eternity for we are made in God's image to thrive or survive in a contingent world, and help others around us to do so, as best we can.

The "if this then that" (syllogism or whatever it's called) is:

Being saved (which is about the survival of integrity) depends on buying in and to some degree carrying on buying in.

The opportunity to buy in / believe comes mainly from distinct teaching having actually been offered.

The predestination part of it is that when we were offered sufficiently distinct teaching to take that informed step of will, the predestined part of the deal cut in (predestination is a matter of the conditions).

Those who teach others to teach indistinctly, risk their integrity by risking the integrity of those they teach to teach like that. This is the biggest warning in OT & NT. But the rest of us, should pray that their teaching would become whole / that someone else would present whole teaching.

For this reason eternal rewards vary among the Elect.
Agreed but only in context of what I have written.
 
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I am not ... it is truth.
You are correct about translation issues which are sometimes part of what tripped up many people, whose grasp is shallow, resulting in most of the "explanations" in this thread.

But the core issue is belief and logic which at one time used to help people get round inconsistent translations never mind most of the newer ones being plugged profitably by their editors (to not show up sloppy preachers).

The text was always meant as an aid to teaching and when sloppy belief weakened the teaching, the teachers "made the text mean" what they wanted even when well translated, because they thought a spooky message made them feel more important. See my post 55.
 
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zoidar

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Yet we are told that to attribute salvation to ourselves is pride...
If we ask for a gift we don't deserve and are shown kindness, are given the gift. In that, what would there be to be proud about?
 
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Carl Emerson

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If we ask for a gift we don't deserve and are shown kindness, are given the gift. In that, what would there be to be proud about?

Well the choice is to make His Love the operative factor or your will...
 
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atpollard

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If we ask for a gift we don't deserve and are shown kindness, are given the gift. In that, what would there be to be proud about?
  • God chooses, God saves, God preserves.
  • Man chooses, man takes the gift of salvation, man perseveres.
See the difference?
 
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