Will we be spared, half spared or go thru the entire tribulation ?

[wwjosh19]

What I meant by tribulation is the horrific scenes of the Book of Revelation. I have heard all three schools of thought in what the believers have to endure:

1. That we will be spared of the big tribulation
2. That we will somehow live through it, until it is so bad, we will be taken out
3. That we will live through the entire suffering

I would like to do a little Bible study exercise to be enlightened by the group. Base entirely on the scriptures, how you draw the conclusion ?

Personally, I incline to choose scenario # 2 that we will at least go through some of the suffering if not all. My reference: Revelation 6:11 ;Revelation 7:14 and another references I forgot where it from that Jesus said one day we will be hauled into court, and betrayed by our own family. That sounds very much like the end times.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

According to Scripture, the enemy of Christ will (already has) granted power to kill the Ekklesia (true born again believers).

They already have been suffering persecution greatly all over the world for many centuries.

 

[wwjosh19]

They already have been suffering persecution greatly all over the world for many centuries

That is really so thought provoking. Living in free countries where our faith are protected, we have little idea other than watching the news how a lot of believers are living day in and day out the same suffering as in the big tribulation.

 

[com7fy8]

What I meant by tribulation is the horrific scenes of the Book of Revelation. I have heard all three schools of thought in what the believers have to endure:

1. That we will be spared of the big tribulation
2. That we will somehow live through it, until it is so bad, we will be taken out
3. That we will live through the entire suffering

To me, it seems like none of these three tell it all like the Bible means.

1. About being spared of the big tribulation > It is true we will not be subjected to our Heavenly Father's wrath judgments > 1 Thessalonians 5:9 < this scripture is used by people who believe in a pre-trib Rapture. But I offer that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 does not mean we can not be in the great tribulation, because we can be there and God can keep from hurting us with His wrath judgments. I think you can find support, in Revelation chapter seven, that God will have servants in the trib., but they will be sealed > Revelation 7:3.

2. About the idea that we will be raptured when things get too hard > Jesus Christ guarantees that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, "and you will find rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30) And God will be in full control about how bad things get, and we are guaranteed 2 Corinthians 10:13. And our Apostle Paul went through so much trouble; yet, he says he became able to take "pleasure" in his troubles > 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. This is because God's grace is almighty in us so more and more we can have rest and pleasure of God's love in us while we go through things. So - - - I would say prepare to do this if you believe in being a prepper

re: 3. > We will suffer, whatever we go through, but we are not appointed to suffer the wrath judgments of God!! But Satan's people will be allowed to mess with us and kill us. But while they are being subjected to all the things of Revelation, how much can they do to us? Among other things, a third of them in the whole world will be killed and those locusts with scorpion-like tails and with human heads will be singling them out for stinging. They won't be able to touch us unless God lets them. Ones of the third who will be killed could be coming right after us and suddenly die, or get stung.

And if so many are being tormented and killed, possibly we will be able to eat their food and use their houses and vehicles, because they won't be able to. So, for all I know, how much prepping really will be needed? In any case, I trust God to have me ready to do well while going through whatever He knows really will happen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is really so thought provoking. Living in free countries where our faith are protected, we have little idea other than watching the news how a lot of believers are living day in and day out the same suffering as in the big tribulation.

Amen.
But realize - our faith may or may not be "protected", (in the usa/ on this forum even),
but our right to live healthy is not protected. Look up online "terrain theory" (the fish bowl picture on wik-something) ..... just for starters.....

 

[dreadnought]

What I meant by tribulation is the horrific scenes of the Book of Revelation. I have heard all three schools of thought in what the believers have to endure:

1. That we will be spared of the big tribulation
2. That we will somehow live through it, until it is so bad, we will be taken out
3. That we will live through the entire suffering

I would like to do a little Bible study exercise to be enlightened by the group. Base entirely on the scriptures, how you draw the conclusion ?

Personally, I incline to choose scenario # 2 that we will at least go through some of the suffering if not all. My reference: Revelation 6:11 ;Revelation 7:14 and another references I forgot where it from that Jesus said one day we will be hauled into court, and betrayed by our own family. That sounds very much like the end times.

Perhaps there is a clue in here:

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

 

[SavedByGrace3]

After Studying these things for 46 years, since 1971, here are my conclusions.

The "first resurrection" will take place "after the great tribulation," on the "last day" of the "days of the sounding of the last trump."

What and when is the "first resurrection?" No resurrections can occur prior to it. The first of a series.
What and when is the "last day?" No days follow. The last of a series of days. In this case, the last day of the days of the sounding of the seventh trump.
What and when is the "last trump?" No trumps follow it. The last of a series of trumps.


Just let scripture interpret itself:

John 11:
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:39:
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It cannot be refuted that the resurrection of believers is going to take place on the "last day." Not 3 and 1/2, 7, 13, or any other number of days/years before the last day. It will occur on the last day.

The question is "the last day of what?"
We must conclude that this is the last day of the series of days where salvation is determined by faith in Jesus, IOWs the current days of grace. The context of these verses, all of which involve salvation, forces us to conclude that this is the "last day" of what many refer to as the age of grace, or the church age. The age that follows this day will be the millennial age, discussed next. We will not get dogmatic about dispensationalism... suffice to say the current age will different than the next age. We shall see that this will be on the "last day" of "the days" of the sounding of the 7th trump.

When is the first resurrection?
Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the resurrection of believers, those who will reign with Christ.

Read this in context by reading all Revelation 20.

This occurs just prior to the beginning of the "millennium." It is impossible to read these chapters and those preceding it and conclude that the "first resurrection" which takes place on "the last day" can be at any other time other than immediately prior to the millennium. It is not three and a half, seven, or 13 years. None of those theories will work within the plain and simple statements of scripture. It is on the Last Day... not 7 years or any other number of days before the last day.

The "first resurrection" takes place on "the last day" when the "last trump" is sounding.

1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The "last trump" by definition is the last in predefined series of trumps. Trumps had to have occurred before it and none after it (in that series). We would suggest that this clearly refers to the last, or 7th, of the 7 trumps sounding in the book of Revelation. Looking at the events of the 7th trump:

Revelation of John 10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So we see in in the days of the seventh trump.. something very momentous occurs. The finishing of of a time referred to as "the mystery of God" previously mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 as "I shew you a mystery." Note that Rev 10:7 says that the events of the 7th trumpet are going to take place over a period of "days" not just one "day." The last of these "days" will be the "last day." It is no co-incident that this "last day" is also the day of the "first resurrection" and the day that the resurrected saints are rewarded.

What follows in the rest of chapter 10 and then 11 is an expansion of what is occurring during the "days" of the 7th trump's sounding. Observe:

Rev 11:
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is a reference to the coming first resurrection, taking place on the last day of the days of the sounding of the 7th trump. The saints have been raised and the "judgement seat of Christ" has come. This understanding assumes a widely held understanding that the 7 bowls are a part of the 7th trumpet, and the 7 trumpets are included in the 7th seal.
Hence it can be said that the events of the 7 bowls are all part of the days of the 7th trumpet, and the prophesied events that are to take place during the days if the sounding of the 7th (last) trump include the bowls, the "great tribulation," the "last day," the "first resurrection," and the taking of the nations by our Lord and savior. All these happen during the days of the sounding of the 7th, or last trump.

Jesus Sums It All Up: Matthew 24

Matthew 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Fact - The topic here is the Great Tribulation. There will have been none worse before it therefore: Everything that happens here is after that Great Tribulation.
Fact - The days are being cut short, meaning that time is ceased and the last day is proclaimed. Hence making the current day the last day. what is described here IS the last day.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a description of the last day, the day when it is decided to stop all days and end it. It is AFTER the (great and greatest) tribulation. It is after the battle of Armageddon. It is after the darkening of the sun and moon. At the sound of the (last) trump the Lord appears in the sky and the angels are dispatched to gather the living saints from the 4 corners of the earth, and the deceased saints from heaven. This can only be the last resurrection.. also know as the "rapture."

This coincides perfectly with Joel's vision of the last days when the Lord returns:

Joel 2:
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The "Last Day," the day upon which it is declared that the "days would be shortened" is clearly pronounced as the day the 7th trump is sounded.

Revelation 10:
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Therefore during the days of the sounding of the 7th trumpet it will be decided that the days must be cut short to save the elect... that day will be the "last day."
All this of course coincides exactly with what Joel said would happen just prior to the "great and terrible day of the Lord."

Joel 2:
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This is a very short summary - the mountain tops of this teaching. It all is based on the four facts from scripture:

The "first resurrection" will take place "after the great tribulation," on the "last day" of the "days of sounding" of the "last trump."

After the many years of study... I see it very difficult to take these clear and obvious statements in any other way. The timing and chronology seems very precise and the events very well defined. Impossible to shuffle these events around in any other way than what they clearly say.
Blessings.
Dids

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Christians have died, been tortured, murdered, used and abused for entertainment and out of hate. They have suffered fire, drowning, breaking bones, crushing of their bodies, cutting, disemboweling, and every other conceivable torment. There is nothing in the Great Tribulation that is going to be new or more dangerous that what we have not already endured. The enduring until the end is not a worry about physical suffering. The danger is that of falling away to the deception of the beast and his false religion.
We are seeing that already. Those who retain their faith until the end will be saved.

 

[drjean]

Good to study. Don't take my word for it... consult Dr Jack Van Impe who has memorized over 18000 verses and is a prophecy preacher! JVIM.com

We are not the elect. The Jews are. We are the bride. We are not the chosen nation, Israel is.

I personally know that the rapture occurs prior to the 7 years of tribulation. The 7 years is spelled out by God as the time of His Wrath. His Word also says that he will keep us FROM (see the Greek word) His Wrath, that the time of His Wrath being the time of Jacob's trouble and that it is for the JEWS for not keeping jubilee. We are HIS BRIDE. No groom would perform wrath upon his bride, God surely won't. Plus it can't be at end of trib also for the reason that we receive our crowns during the marriage supper and return With Him on those white horses to see Him end it. (Another very clever clue is the numbering of the days of jubilee that the Jews have refused to observe and that coincides with the number of days of..... well you figure it out! )

God is very specific about these things, if one does study he'll see that.

God gives us the exact number of days of the tribulation, and the starting point. He says no man knows the day nor hour. IF you are "mid-trib" you would know the exact day because it's all counted out for you. So that won't work with Scripture.

So the above rules out mid trib and end trib. And supports pre-trib.

While we don't know the exact day or hour, we can know the time/season. And it's here.

PS If you believe in resurrection then you must believe in the rapture. There are only 2 NT verses regarding resurrection and they both include the rapture! Keep looking to the East folks.


PPS That believers are taken up prior to the 7 year tribulation IS THE BLESSED HOPE!

PPPS Plus there would be no reason for a believer to not end his life at the start of the tribulation, knowing what God's wrath is going to be upon those on earth... absent from the body, present with the LORD.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Well

Good to study. Don't take my word for it... consult Dr Jack Van Impe who has memorized over 18000 verses and is a prophecy preacher! JVIM.com

We are not the elect. The Jews are. We are the bride. We are not the chosen nation, Israel is.

I personally know that the rapture occurs prior to the 7 years of tribulation. The 7 years is spelled out by God as the time of His Wrath. His Word also says that he will keep us FROM (see the Greek word) His Wrath, that the time of His Wrath being the time of Jacob's trouble and that it is for the JEWS for not keeping jubilee. We are HIS BRIDE. No groom would perform wrath upon his bride, God surely won't. Plus it can't be at end of trib also for the reason that we receive our crowns during the marriage supper and return With Him on those white horses to see Him end it. (Another very clever clue is the numbering of the days of jubilee that the Jews have refused to observe and that coincides with the number of days of..... well you figure it out! )

God is very specific about these things, if one does study he'll see that.

God gives us the exact number of days of the tribulation, and the starting point. He says no man knows the day nor hour. IF you are "mid-trib" you would know the exact day because it's all counted out for you. So that won't work with Scripture.

So the above rules out mid trib and end trib. And supports pre-trib.

While we don't know the exact day or hour, we can know the time/season. And it's here.

PS If you believe in resurrection then you must believe in the rapture. There are only 2 NT verses regarding resurrection and they both include the rapture! Keep looking to the East folks.


PPS That believers are taken up prior to the 7 year tribulation IS THE BLESSED HOPE!

PPPS Plus there would be no reason for a believer to not end his life at the start of the tribulation, knowing what God's wrath is going to be upon those on earth... absent from the body, present with the LORD.

Well there are all those pesky scriptures listed in post #7
Most of what you recite here are secondary rationalizations and conclusions about what you assume God would and would not do. Post 7 gives specific scriptures that deal exactly with the topic at hand. Words like "resurrection" and "after the tribulation" are used by Jesus. Words giving specific teaching about chronology and timing like "last," "first," "day," "before," and "after." No vague references or foggy misapplied references or romantic notions. Scripture... first and last. The Word. All else is fancy, and like the word "rapture" it self... simply made up.

 

[drjean]

My beliefs are based upon Scripture and knowledge of the Jewish Marriage traditions and laws, as Jesus spoke of them also. Someone who only knows of English perversions and mistranslations of God's Word can't possibly know about them. I have no idea what other's backgrounds are here.

There are over 300 references to resurrection in the Bible but Jesus used 2 and both times they are rapture verses.

There is no "Bible" either because it isn't in God's Word. There is the fallacy of misconception. The term "rapture" comes from the Latin. That's Greek to most people nowdays though. So forget the word "rapture" since it causes so many confusion...and use taking out of, a gathering together... something like that.

It doesn't matter what those who do not hold to pretribulation rapture believe because they will believe in it when they are taken out along with me. IF they are true believers, that is.

I find all sorts of issues with the verbiage in post 7. To say something cannot be disputed is a fallacy.

There are NO "Pesky" Scriptures in my beliefs. As posted in 7, it is the poster's conclusions after "47" years of study. How many years of Greek, Hebrew, and study under other authorities who know those languages and the nuances of Hebrew life and traditions? Jesus was all about speaking to the Jews and did not address Gentiles in general til aftre His Resurrection, and the raising of those waiting for deliverance in paradise. Everything Jesus says is to the Jews and they understood it from their Scriptures and traditions. One must study those to understand what Jesus was saying. (Even so, the apostles who were Jewish still had to have some things explained to them.)

If people are really interested in studying this, then go to JVIM.com and dispute his study. When you know the Bible like he does, and having also memorized 18,000 verses you can really compare Scripture with Scripture "automatically" in your head (not bogged down like most of us are to go double check the base language meanings, Strongs, Ungers, Pinks, Youngs etc or the BibleHub etc to see which way we want to believe).

I suppose one could include a study in just what they believe is the Blessed Hope. It is not salvation, for we have salvation already. There is no blessed hope if the doom and gloom and punishment of God to have to go through the tribulation exists for the believer. No reason to live after accepting Christ, just die and be with Jesus and forget the punishment He has for the Jews. I suppose if you failed to keep the jubilees, as you failed to keep the Commandments God gave to the Jews, then yes, maybe one can hang onto the delight of being punished on earth?

One has to ignore their own verses to believe we are subject to God's wrath.Too many verse about God promising to take us out of this, keep us from His wrath and what the focus is of His wrath. Only perverted grooms will punish their new brides here on earth. I refuse to allow anyone to call God Almighty that.


Editted to add this: God must have seen the issue and provided this today!
View attachment 224077

Today’s Devotional | March 24 | REVELATION 19:1-10 | The Marriage Supper
Today's Devotional
Memory Verse
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (Revelation 19:7).

God has chosen to the closest of all human relationships, marriage, to illustrate the Christian life. A bride and groom are drawn together by love. God’s love draws lost people to salvation. A wedding is a time of exchanging promises and of joining together. Salvation occurs when a sinner responds to the promise of eternal life and takes the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour. Marriage is the beginning of a life that will be experienced by two who have been made one. After the new birth, the believer and his Saviour go through life together. The Lord never forsakes His own.

There is, however, another great wedding day coming. This will be the fulfilling of the type that we now see in the Christian life. Christ is the bridegroom. The church is His bride. The marriage takes place in heaven after the Rapture of the church and while the Tribulation is raging on earth. It will be a great occasion.

The revelation of the coming marriage of the Lamb makes it absolutely certain that the church will not go through the Tribulation. We’ll miss the Tribulation because we have a date in heaven. We have to attend a wedding. Our wedding.

One of the finest Christians I have ever met said that he was confident the church would not go through the Tribulation because he knew the Lord was sure to care for His bride. Good thinking. And Biblically sound! Though we may go through much trouble, we shall escape the world’s most difficult time.

Better get ready for the wedding!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Minor point:
Bible. Four hundred years after Christ returned to Heaven, people began to use the Greek word biblia (meaning 'books') to describe the collection of the sacred writings. Our word 'Bible' comes from biblia. Word of God. The Bible claims to be the 'Word of God' over 3,000 times (John 10:35; Hebrews 4:12).

Rapture, on the other hand:
"Rapture" is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If one thinks the first resurrection occurs anytime other than the last day, is not basing their conclusion on the plain statements of scripture.
If one thinks the first resurrection occurs anytime other than the last trump, is not basing their conclusion on the plain statements of scripture.
If one thinks the first resurrection takes place anytime other than "after the (great) tribulation" of those days, is not basing their conclusion on the plain statements of scripture.
Really not much more to say. It is what it is.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Please review the
Christian Preppers Statement of Purpose.

This is a theological discussion that is not about prepping so this thread is being moved to Eschatology.
​

 

[DavidPT]

1. About being spared of the big tribulation > It is true we will not be subjected to our Heavenly Father's wrath judgments > 1 Thessalonians 5:9 < this scripture is used by people who believe in a pre-trib Rapture. But I offer that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 does not mean we can not be in the great tribulation, because we can be there and God can keep from hurting us with His wrath judgments. I think you can find support, in Revelation chapter seven, that God will have servants in the trib., but they will be sealed > Revelation 7:3.

The thing is though, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is not talking about the great tribulation to begin with. It is talking about the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows after the time of the great tribulation. Pretrib confuses satan's wrath with God's wrath. satan's wrath comes first, IOW the great tribulation. God's wrath follows after that, IOW the day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[BABerean2]

Good to study. Don't take my word for it... consult Dr Jack Van Impe who has memorized over 18000 verses and is a prophecy preacher! JVIM.com

We are not the elect. The Jews are. We are the bride. We are not the chosen nation, Israel is.

I personally know that the rapture occurs prior to the 7 years of tribulation. The 7 years is spelled out by God as the time of His Wrath. His Word also says that he will keep us FROM (see the Greek word) His Wrath, that the time of His Wrath being the time of Jacob's trouble and that it is for the JEWS for not keeping jubilee. We are HIS BRIDE. No groom would perform wrath upon his bride, God surely won't. Plus it can't be at end of trib also for the reason that we receive our crowns during the marriage supper and return With Him on those white horses to see Him end it. (Another very clever clue is the numbering of the days of jubilee that the Jews have refused to observe and that coincides with the number of days of..... well you figure it out! )

God is very specific about these things, if one does study he'll see that.

God gives us the exact number of days of the tribulation, and the starting point. He says no man knows the day nor hour. IF you are "mid-trib" you would know the exact day because it's all counted out for you. So that won't work with Scripture.

So the above rules out mid trib and end trib. And supports pre-trib.

While we don't know the exact day or hour, we can know the time/season. And it's here.

PS If you believe in resurrection then you must believe in the rapture. There are only 2 NT verses regarding resurrection and they both include the rapture! Keep looking to the East folks.


PPS That believers are taken up prior to the 7 year tribulation IS THE BLESSED HOPE!

PPPS Plus there would be no reason for a believer to not end his life at the start of the tribulation, knowing what God's wrath is going to be upon those on earth... absent from the body, present with the LORD.

Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, all of the above falls apart.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology only works by ignoring the fulfillment of the New Covenant.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.



.

 

[shilohsfoal]

What I meant by tribulation is the horrific scenes of the Book of Revelation. I have heard all three schools of thought in what the believers have to endure:

1. That we will be spared of the big tribulation
2. That we will somehow live through it, until it is so bad, we will be taken out
3. That we will live through the entire suffering

I would like to do a little Bible study exercise to be enlightened by the group. Base entirely on the scriptures, how you draw the conclusion ?

Personally, I incline to choose scenario # 2 that we will at least go through some of the suffering if not all. My reference: Revelation 6:11 ;Revelation 7:14 and another references I forgot where it from that Jesus said one day we will be hauled into court, and betrayed by our own family. That sounds very much like the end times.

Jesus was speaking to someone when he said you would be hauled into court and betrayed by family but that doest nessesarily mean you.
Be careful not to put yourself in someonin elses shoes.It can make things very difficult to understand if you think eeverything is about yourself.

 

[Revealing Times]

What I meant by tribulation is the horrific scenes of the Book of Revelation. I have heard all three schools of thought in what the believers have to endure:

The scenes in Revelation is justified judgment upon the wicked for the most part. John in Heaven cried when he was told there was no one to open the Seals. Those who die are people who tarried, they had their chance to live for Christ and waited too long, now if they die for Christ they will YET LIVE in the hereafter, so their deaths become a good thing, just like the Christian Martyrs of the Church Age.

1. That we will be spared of the big tribulation
2. That we will somehow live through it, until it is so bad, we will be taken out
3. That we will live through the entire suffering

I would like to do a little Bible study exercise to be enlightened by the group. Base entirely on the scriptures, how you draw the conclusion ?

Personally, I incline to choose scenario # 2 that we will at least go through some of the suffering if not all. My reference: Revelation 6:11 ;Revelation 7:14 and another references I forgot where it from that Jesus said one day we will be hauled into court, and betrayed by our own family. That sounds very much like the end times.

Rev. 6:11 is the Beheaded REMNANT CHURCH. What does remnant mean? A small part of something that is left. Thus with the Church being Raptured, all of those who give their lives unto Christ and refuse the Mark of the Beast are thus the REMNANT CHURCH of Rev. 12:17, they are also the Beheaded under the Alter in Seal #5, Jesus gives them their White robe and tells them the MUST WAIT until their fellow brothers have been killed also, meaning they must wait until the Bests 42 month reign of terror is over.

As per Rev. 7:14 these are the Raptured Church in Heaven. Whereas Rev. ch. 19 is the full story of the bride in Heaven, marrying the Lamb and returning with Jesus, or almost the full story, Rev. 4, 5 and 7 are only snapshots of Church in heaven at various times. Rev. 7 is the Church after they marry the Lamb, we understand that because they already have their White robes on.

I think what confuses people here in this verse is they just assume the GREAT TRIBULATION has to mean what "men" have come to call the great tribulation period just because Jesus/Daniel stated there would be a period of time where the greatest troubles ever seen would exist. They can't bring themselves to see what I see, that the GREAT TRIBULATION John is speaking of here, when we put all the clues together, is the 2000 year Church Age, where Jesus told us we would always have TRIBULATION, and John in Revelation 1:9 told the Seven Churches he was their Companion in TRIBULATION. We know the Romans Martyred many Christians, we understand that Islam has Martyred millions of Christians in the last 1400 years. So the Church Age as in 2000>7 is the GREAT TRIBULATION John was speaking of. Too many people try to pigeonhole Gods word, but it doesn't work that way, we have to place all the clues in front of us and figure out the facts.

Those that die during the 70th Week are told they MUST WAIT until their fellow brothers die also, yet everyone has these people show here in HEAVEN with White Romes on. Both can't be true. The truth is they wait until the Second Coming and are THEN JUDGED, I can prove it.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So the BEHEADED are JUDGED after Jesus Returns !! They are not the ones in Rev. 7:14 with the White Robes. This is very clear unto me. Those are the Pre Trip Raptured Church.

 

[jgr]

Good to study. Don't take my word for it... consult Dr Jack Van Impe who has memorized over 18000 verses and is a prophecy preacher! JVIM.com

We are not the elect. The Jews are. We are the bride. We are not the chosen nation, Israel is.

I wonder if JVI knows these verses. Have you ever heard him quote any of them?


Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

No mention of the Jews there. Those verses are for the Church, the elect in which there is neither Jew nor Greek.


Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

No mention of the nation of Israel there. Those verses are for those in Christ, the chosen holy nation.

 

[drjean]

Please don't flame. Speak to my posts.

I stand with my beliefs. I do not take verses out of context to make them fit.
Jesus spoke to the Jews and related to them from the Hebrew perspective and Law.
The apostles spoke to Jews and Gentiles but required Gentiles to keep Jewish Laws.
Paul spoke to Jews at the very first but then as God declared to Him, sent him to give the message of his Gospel to the Gentiles "only".

There are many "missing" mentions depending upon whom the author was, and to whom he was writing. Paul does not often mention / promote baptism (not at all after a certain letter..) because he wasn't sent to baptize but does that mean no one should be baptized? That would be a false assumption.

1 Peter is not being given or talking about Gentiles He is definitely describing and speaking/writing to the Jews. To assume Gentile believers are the holy nation is bordering on preterism which we do not hold to on this site. The 4 gospels are similarly written, displaying Christ in 4 formats, so to speak, because "Jews require a sign".