Well, Wiccans dont believe in Hell at all. That is a Christian creation. Even so, we wouldn't say anything similiar to that anyway.stillsmallvoice said:While I don't know much about Wicca, I've met more than a few Wiccans on various interfaith boards & without any doubt, I have found them, as a group, to be the most tolerant, patient and unarrogant people I've met on these sites. No Wiccan has ever witnessed at me. No Wiccan has ever told me that I'm necessarily going to hell because I'm Jewish, i.e. not Wiccan. No Wiccan has ever patronized me or treated me as anything less than an equal. And some people dare to call them evil merely because their beliefs are different? As my people say, that's real chutzpah!
Volos said:
Wicca is not the same thing as witchcraft. Wicca is a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief and is part of the larger NeoPagan religion.
There is no metal in the elements, its Earth, Air, Fire, Water and the top point Spirit.Kira Faye said:The pentagram in wiccan terms represents earth, fire, wind, water, metal and spirit...All five points are the elements and spirit is the centre of all. In my view its a very earth based symbol combining all the elemtnets of the earth and spirit and compining them equally to create a balance with everything..Man I wish I had a good balance between study time and TV time..might help te hehehe. Also I would liek to point out that 'fake' wiccans usually come from what they see on TV and take spells and such off those shows, pretend to cast them etc...
supermagdalena said:... my point is that it's not the good deeds because no one can, by today's standards, draw the line between good and evil. If you should do what's right in you're eyes, then murder could be right, or anything. So the idea can't be good deeds, because we've all done things wrong, and we've all at a time thought they were right..
WiccanHeart said:Perhaps we follow different Pagan religions because Wicca isnt only a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief ... Wicca is indeed a religion in and of its self that uses Witchcraft within the religion.
Rae said:Actually, the Chinese elements are earth, fire, water, metal, and wood. So yes, there is metal in the elements if you're a Chinese pagan or follow Chinese Gods.
Cerridwen, I'm affraid that is not wonderful, but a horrible thing.Cerridwen said:but that's another wonderful thing about being Pagan...we don't depend on forgivness for salvation or need to fear punishment for misdeeds.
It's refreshing to see that on some points Wiccans still respect natural morality, but I'm affraid that is not enough.We are encouraged-no, required- to have personal responsibility for anything and everything we undertake. That means that no, murder can't be "right in our eyes", because we instinctively know that it isn't.
So, if an action doesn't harm anyone, Wiccans are free to do it? No matter what action that might be?Especially the poster you're referring to, as she, I believe, stated that she is Wiccan, and Wiccans follow the Rede (An it HARM NONE, do what ye will) & the Law of Three.
Being as good as we can possibly be without faith in God? It is completely impossible. How can someone do good if they don't acknowledge or like Goodness?The point is, we don't require Gods standing over us to make sure we behave ourselves, we are responsible for our own actions, & don't have the luxury of blaming our shortcomings on the "devil".
Lifesaver said:Cerridwen, I'm affraid that is not wonderful, but a horrible thing. Instead of facing the reality of the evil they do, thousands and thousands are being led to believe all is good if they feel good.
Lifesaver said:It's refreshing to see that on some points Wiccans still respect natural morality, but I'm affraid that is not enough.
Lifesaver said:So, if an action doesn't harm anyone, Wiccans are free to do it? No matter what action that might be?
Lifesaver said:Being as good as we can possibly be without faith in God? It is completely impossible. How can someone do good if they don't acknowledge or like Goodness?
Lifesaver said:No-one has the luxury of blaming shortcomings on the devil. If it were so, no-one would go to Hell. Adam and Eve were tempted by the devil, but were they not responsible for their own actions? They were. And didn't God acknowledge that and punished them? He did.
Not by Pagans, but thanks for your concern.Instead of facing the reality of the evil they do, thousands and thousands are being led to believe all is good if they feel good.
No one does go to hell. The Gods are far more good than you give them credit for.No-one has the luxury of blaming shortcomings on the devil. If it were so, no-one would go to Hell.
Volos said:Hi Cerridwen
Welcome to the forums
Lifesaver needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt, he has had the same conversation with several of us before and yet he somehow always manages to misrepresent the Pagan religions.
Are you against forgiveness when the wrongdoer has honestly repented?Cerridwen said:Evidently you misread my post. Nowhere within was it stated or implied that we believe all is good if it feels good. An inherently good person, however, does feel good when s/he does a good thing. On the other hand, though, a person can be horrible for their ENTIRE life, murder, rape, steal.... you name it, & all they have to do is get down on their knees & have a clean slate? Oh yeah, some personal responsibilty there.
Notice that I mentioned "natural morality"- in other words, a morality that one doesn't need to be Christian (or even have heard about Christianity) to know about."Some" points? Try ALL points. Our religion is very moral to us, if it wasn't, we wouldn't be a part of it. Morality is relative, & it's not for you to tell anyone else what is or isn't moral. Morality that is necessary for the perpetuation of the species actually isn't founded in religion, but in secular society, & it most definitely wasn't founded in the Christian religion. It becomes very tiring for those of us who know better-the constant assumption that morality was born with Christianity.
A father and a son have sex with each other. Both like it and have no regrets. Was that good?Um, yes. And where is the difficulty in understanding that? Harm=Bad, No Harm=Good.
A common mistake.If your God was so good, he'd stop all the horrible things that happen in this world.
The devil is always tempting us. The decision to sin, though, is not up to him.Sorry, honey, I don't buy it. Since the dawn of Christianity, everything bad or wrong has been blamed on the "devil". If you were sick, you were possessed. If you didin't agree with the Christian dogma 100%, you were/are a heretic, led astray by the "devil". If you lost your temper, it was the "devil" in you. If you decide to be a moronic, homcidal, psychopath...the "devil" made you do it. If you could heal people with herbs, you were murdered or banished, because your "powers" had to have come from the "devil".
No, Adam and Eve desired to be gods themselves, and to know evil (to do it).Yes, Adam & Eve were supposedly tempted by the "devil". Tempted with what? KNOWLEDGE. God was so worried about not having blind & ignorant adoration, that he forbade them from knowing ANYTHING, & when they slipped, like he "knew" they would (being all-knowing, of course), he punished them-and as if that wasn't enough-EVERY generation after. For something that was His Own Fault. Sorry, Babe, but that doesn't strike me as very loving.
Volos, Volos... I await the day when you'll stop saying I'm wrong and start telling why I'm wrong.Volos said:Lifesaver needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt, he has had the same conversation with several of us before and yet he somehow always manages to misrepresent the Pagan religions.
Lifesaver said:Oh, welcome to CF, by the way (I hadn't noticed you were a new member). Don't leave because of the constant arguing.
Notice that I mentioned "natural morality"- in other words, a morality that one doesn't need to be Christian (or even have heard about Christianity) to know about.
As for something "being moral to us", I don't think that cuts it.
If a person honestly feels that harming others is moral, are they just as right in his beliefs as someone who thinks harming others is wrong?
Good and evil are and always will be good and evil, regardless of location and opinion.
No, Adam and Eve desired to be gods themselves, and to know evil (to do it).
They were greedy.
It's possible to somehow override our natural sense of right and wrong, though it is never completely lost.Plan 9 said:Now, you're confusing me, Lifesaver. This sounds like C.S. Lewis's argument for a basic universal morality, and that argument is a pretty strong one; one I could bolster...until you then seem to say that everyone doesn't actually possess this universal moral sense? What am I missing here?
The Bible.Where are you getting this, since I'm already asking you one question? If you don't mind, of course. I've noticed that lots of people would rather ignore me as a sort of weird interruption of their real, vitally important debate goal, and that's fine with me; I'm used to it now.