Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Lifesaver said:It's possible to somehow override our natural sense of right and wrong, though it is never completely lost.
Generally, though, the people doing evil know it is evil, and relativism only comes in as a cheap attempt to justify their actions.
The Bible.
Of course there are ethical dilemmas, though most have really to do with some lack of information on our part.Plan 9 said:C'mon now. don't kid a kidder. Absolutely everyone has to make difficult ethical decisions, including Christians, and it's not an easy job. The Bible doesn't answer questions like, "Do I choose to jaywalk or be late for work?", when both are ethically wrong
If it's never completely lost, then it's never completely lost. Otherwise that's a relativistic position, too.
Lifesaver said:Oh, welcome to CF, by the way (I hadn't noticed you were a new member). Don't leave because of the constant arguing.
Lifesaver said:Are you against forgiveness when the wrongdoer has honestly repented?
Lifesaver said:It's possible to somehow override our natural sense of right and wrong, though it is never completely lost.
Generally, though, the people doing evil know it is evil, and relativism only comes in as a cheap attempt to justify their actions....
Lifesaver said:.....The Bible.
Lifesaver said:A father and a son have sex with each other. Both like it and have no regrets. Was that good?
Lifesaver said:A husband cheats his wife once. He and his lover enjoy it and have absolutely no regrets. They decide not to do it again, though.
The wife never even suspected about it, and was happy as always.
Was that good?
Lifesaver said:A common mistake.
He grants us freedom, and taking that freedom away would be evil.
Lifesaver said:No, Adam and Eve desired to be gods themselves, and to know evil (to do it).They were greedy.
rachelg2004 said:You can't be into God and then be into Witchcraft. They don't go together. You can't believe and follow both.
I agree, and so does God. Hipocritical repenting does not work.Cerridwen said:Not under those circumstances, no. I think if someone has been a horrible person their entire life that to beg for forgiveness right before death is a convenient & undeserved way out. It's different, of course, if it's a few mistakes....forgiving someone for that when they are honestly sorry is fine, but when someone takes advantage of it & leads a life of cruelty & hatred then decides that since they believe in God & Jesus that it's okay...that's just sickening.
You need only to look at history to realize how wrong your interpretation of Christianity is. Have people in Christian cultures gotten away with these things?Exactly. and forgiveness, or "salvation" as it were, comes in as a cheap excuse to get away with murder, both literally & figuratively.
Good question. I don't do it.The Bible is a work of fiction. It contains some good ideas, lots of "borrowed" mythological stories, & tons of political propaganda. I realize & respect the faith that you & those like you put into that book, but using it as proof isn't going to amount to a whole lot with me & those like me. The Bible is so full of contradicitons & inaccuracies...how do you pick & choose what's real & relevant & what's not?
You wouldn't believe the kind of perversion that exists out there...This, according to psychology, is an innacurate statement. By constraints & known developments of human emotional interaction, a child(depending on his age) can't understand whether the act is bad or good. Also, there is no possible way in the realm of scientific reasoning that the son, and likely the father as well can go throughout life with no regrets for doing something that is psychologically harmful to the child.
They decided not to do it again so as to not arise suspicion, for they didn't want to get caught. They had no qualms at all with their action.Firstly, I would say that if said husband loved his wife, he wouldn't have cheated on her. Secondly, Had there been no regrets, as you said, then they wouldn't have decided to only do it once. Regardless of the wife's non-suspicion, her husband commited harm to her through betrayal.
Good, you acknowledge natural morality. Killing is wrong no matter how anyone "feels" about it; so is lying; and so on.We are evolved as humankind to have an emotional consciousness. Our brains are simply wired for it. We, as I stated before, instinctively know what is painful or "wrong", as it were. We learn from birth through interaction with one another, body language, facial expressions....we learn to love, & we learn compassion. As humans, & throughour environments we know what is inherently wrong & right. Thus "natural morality", if you will. Notice this has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
God made man perfect. He gave man the freedom to sin, to revolt and to hate. For how can love be complete if there is no possibility of betrayal? It can't.No. Making us what we are & then punishing us for it-that's evil.
So, the citizens of Sodom only wanted to "understand" Lot's visitors, is that it?know \"no\ vb knew \"nu, "nyu\; known \"non\; know•ing 1 : to perceive directly : have understanding or direct cognition of; also : to recognize the nature of 2 : to be acquainted or familiar with 3 : to be aware of the truth of 4 : to have a practical understanding of — know•able adj — know•er n — in the know : possessing confidential information
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Nowhere does that equate the word "know' with the word "do". They were told they would be AS Gods, meaning, KNOWING THE SAME THINGS GOD DID.
They were not deaf, nor dumb, nor blind to the world around them...The things that God wanted to keep secret & hidden from them. Again, the "blissful ignorance" sentiment fits here. God labled knowledge as evil, because he didn't want them to have it. He said himself, he's jealous. He didin't want to give up the whole "I am weak but He is strong" thing. They were greedy? Greedy because they wanted to be more than deaf, dumb, & blind to the world around them? Well if that's so, then it's still God's fault, because he's the one who made them that way.
It doesn't work for anyone. There are no Christian witches, nor can there be.Well Dear, that depends on precisely which God(s) & what kind of witchcraft you're referring to. If it our Gods, they are cool with witchcraft. If it's the Judeo-Christian version, I'm sure there are quite a few Christo-pagans & Christian witches who would disagree. While I think being a Christian Witch is an oxymoron, it apparently works for a lot of folks.
Lifesaver said:You need only to look at history to realize how wrong your interpretation of Christianity is. Have people in Christian cultures gotten away with these things?
Lifesaver said:I do read the Bible, but I'm aware I'm no authority on it. The Church is the only one capable of givng a 100% correct interpretation.
Lifesaver said:You wouldn't believe the kind of perversion that exists out there...
Lifesaver said:They decided not to do it again so as to not arise suspicion, for they didn't want to get caught. They had no qualms at all with their action. How was the wife harmed?
Lifesaver said:God made man perfect. He gave man the freedom to sin, to revolt and to hate. For how can love be complete if there is no possibility of betrayal? It can't.
Lifesaver said:So, the citizens of Sodom only wanted to "understand" Lot's visitors, is that it? You are personally interpreting Scriptures, and on top of that, you think a dictionary will give you authoritative knowledge on how to read the Bible.
Lifesaver said:They were not deaf, nor dumb, nor blind to the world around them...Desiring to be like gods, Adam and Eve sinned, and so were cast away from His presence.
Lifesaver said:It doesn't work for anyone. There are no Christian witches, nor can there be.
Lifesaver said:One out of two: your gods don't exist at all; or they are demons, pretending to be gods.
Lifesaver said:Really, Cerridwen: witchcraft DOESN'T WORK! Give up. None of your spells will ever have any effect.
Lifesaver said:You say the Bible is a work of fiction. But I'm not the one believing in fairy tales.
Lifesaver said:One out of two: your gods don't exist at all; or they are demons, pretending to be gods.
Really, Cerridwen: witchcraft DOESN'T WORK! Give up. None of your spells will ever have any effect.
Neo-Paganism is just a way modern men discovered to ground their gnostic beliefs on ancient cultures and their practices; and now, to make it even more appealing, thrown in some environmentalism to the soup.
Heathen Dawn said:Neopaganism is what Christianity would like to be but couldnt. Its Christianity corrected and updated. Pure theism, not sullied with various scholasticisms that philosophise the Gods out of existence. Yahweh too was once a pagan deity, complete with a body and body parts, until He was abstracted into an amorphous Non-Being.
Yes. Repeatedly. Ask the Inquisition, or the slaveowners, or the aristocracy who made their wealth off the backs of impoverished peasants, with the church's blessing.Lifesaver said:You need only to look at history to realize how wrong your interpretation of Christianity is. Have people in Christian cultures gotten away with these things?
If man was perfect, why did he choose to sin, revolt, and hate?Lifesaver said:God made man perfect. He gave man the freedom to sin, to revolt and to hate. For how can love be complete if there is no possibility of betrayal? It can't.
Or 3: your God doesn't exist and hers do.Lifesaver said:The same God exists for both of us. You say "your" gods are cool with witchcraft. One out of two: your gods don't exist at all; or they are demons, pretending to be gods.
True. And neither will your prayers.Lifesaver said:Really, Cerridwen: witchcraft DOESN'T WORK! Give up. None of your spells will ever have any effect.
You are both believing in fairy tales.Lifesaver said:You say the Bible is a work of fiction. But I'm not the one believing in fairy tales.
The defensive wars of the Crusades, to take back lands taken over by Muslims? Is it so evil to fight for what is yours?Cerridwen said:The Crusades.
Heretics and their false doctrines can have a very negative effect on society, especially in medieval and early modern times.The Inquisition.
Indeed, very wrong things. But not Christian at all, I'm affraid.The Salem Witch Trials. The KKK.
So, when Christian do wrong things, you assume that Christianity is in accord with them.ALL of the things carried out by these people & these "soul-winning" expeditions were done in the name of GOD. They got away with it all, simply because they claimed to be Christian.
What...?Such a 100% correct interperetation that about half of it was thrown out, & a bunch of other stuff added, eh?
Not at all. Have you never seen examples of people doing things they think are right in secrecy?They obviously had many qualms about their actions, or they wouldn't have been concerned about raising suspicion. They knew what they did was wrong, which is why they didn't want to get caught.
What part of her was harmed? The soul? The mind? The body?The wife was harmed indirectly, through betrayal, or any amount of other extenuating circumstances.
Love can only be unconditional when the option of betrayal is present. If men choose to rebel, that's their choice, and accordingly, they won't spend eternity in God's presence.If Man can do those things, then Man is not perfect. Love is complete because it is love. Unconditional. Not, "obey me or go to hell".
Not at all. It only shows that your dictionary isn't a very precise authority in interpreting the Bible.So, by this definition, are you saying that Adam & Eve wanted to have sex with the Tree of Knowledge? Well alrighty then.....
[noflame]1. Put on glasses (to see better)...
2. Begin on the left top of the page at Chapter one...
3. Using phoenetics & techniques learned at age four...
Systematically form coherent & cohesive words, sentences & paragraphs...
4. TaDa!!!! I'm READING, ladies & gentlemen!
Do you know what a prayer is? It seems you hold the Neo-Pagan notion that a prayer is just like a spell.And you know this how? For your information dear, I've yet to cast a spell that didn't "work", & my "spellcasting" is no less effective than your prayers.
Now, Now, Cerridwen; you were the first to bite. "The Bible is a work of fiction" remember?Now that was just not very nice. I came to my religion after believing in Christianity lost all sense of logic. It is very serious & very real to me, & it isn't very polite for you to be so disrespectful. I can bite back.
And by the way, the Fey don't like it when you mispell their name.
Another dark moment of our history. The Church, rightly so, always condemned and still condemns this practice.Nathan David said:or the slaveowners
Peasants had their little shares of land, where they produced for their own susbsistence. They paid taxes to the feudal lords, who were the masters of the land.or the aristocracy who made their wealth off the backs of impoverished peasants, with the church's blessing.
He wanted power; he fell for the temptation of the devil.If man was perfect, why did he choose to sin, revolt, and hate?
Do you know what prayers are, Nathan?True. And neither will your prayers.
Translation: people who have different beliefs than the church hierarchy can interfere with our revenue stream. Therefore, they deserve to be tortured and executed.Lifesaver said:Heretics and their false doctrines can have a very negative effect on society, especially in medieval and early modern times.
?!?! You are very ignorant of history. The Catholic church had no problem with slavery for centuries. Some protestant churches in the US endorsed it as God's well up until 1865.Lifesaver said:Another dark moment of our history. The Church, rightly so, always condemned and still condemns this practice.
The feudal lords were masters of the land because their ancestors had stolen it from the peasants through force of arms. The aristocracy lived a life of idleness, paid for by peasant labor.Lifesaver said:Peasants had their little shares of land, where they produced for their own susbsistence. They paid taxes to the feudal lords, who were the masters of the land.
Surely, the life of the peasant was hard, but also stable and tranquil.
So, I guess he wasn't created perfect then, was he? If God had created him to be perfect, he wouldn't have wanted power, and would have used his free will to freely reject the devil's offer.Lifesaver said:He wanted power; he fell for the temptation of the devil.
Yes I do. I know they are different from spells, but equally uneffective.Lifesaver said:Do you know what prayers are, Nathan?
People who pretended to be Christians, and yet spread around un-Christian doctrines, which caused great social upheaving and distress were questioned by ecclesiastical authorities in lighter ways than the usual procedures in secular courts.Nathan David said:Translation: people who have different beliefs than the church hierarchy can interfere with our revenue stream. Therefore, they deserve to be tortured and executed.
You have been lied to by someone trying to cover up how evil the Inquisition was. First of all, no one person should have the authority to decide whether someone else is a real Christian or not. People were punished for the "crime" of disagreeing with official church teachings. If you think that's OK, I suggest you move to Iran or Saudi Arabia. You would probably be very happy there.Lifesaver said:People who pretended to be Christians, and yet spread around un-Christian doctrines, which caused great social upheaving and distress were questioned by ecclesiastical authorities in lighter ways than the usual procedures in secular courts.
The ecclesiastical court decided whether or not the person was guilty, and handed them to the secular authorities, which decided what penalty should be given to the heretic.
The defensive wars of the Crusades? You really need some history lessons. If it was so defensive, why did the majority of it take place on land that was historically Muslim property for centuries? The main defense was from the Muslims against the Christian knights who were enforcing a 'convert or die' philosophy endorsed by the Church. The Church did not condemn any of it. The Crusaders got blanket forgiveness in advance for any sin they may 'have to' commit during the war. This included the aforementioned raping and pillaging.Lifesaver said:The defensive wars of the Crusades, to take back lands taken over by Muslims? Is it so evil to fight for what is yours?
Of course, there were pillaging, looting and raping, all wrong, which the Church condemned and still does to this very day.
Already addressed, so I'm just seconding Nathan David's statements. And it wasn't just heretics, although they were the main targets. Witches were burned by the thousands and the majority were simple herbalists or had nothing to do with witchcraft at all, but the Church got to keep the property and goods of anyone condemned under the Inquisition. They made lots of money on that one.Lifesaver said:Heretics and their false doctrines can have a very negative effect on society, especially in medieval and early modern times.
I'm not even competent enough to speak for the Catholic Church, what to say of protestant groups.Nathan David said:?!?! You are very ignorant of history. The Catholic church had no problem with slavery for centuries. Some protestant churches in the US endorsed it as God's well up until 1865.
The nobility was responsible for defending the land, including the peasants. They were in charge of the army and responsible for all military strategies and did much of actual fighting as well.The feudal lords were masters of the land because their ancestors had stolen it from the peasants through force of arms. The aristocracy lived a life of idleness, paid for by peasant labor.
He had the possibility to freely reject the devil's offer, but he didn't choose it.So, I guess he wasn't created perfect then, was he? If God had created him to be perfect, he wouldn't have wanted power, and would have used his free will to freely reject the devil's offer.
North of Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Spain and Portugal were Christian lands conquered by Islam.SquareC said:The defensive wars of the Crusades? You really need some history lessons. If it was so defensive, why did the majority of it take place on land that was historically Muslim property for centuries? The main defense was from the Muslims against the Christian knights who were enforcing a 'convert or die' philosophy endorsed by the Church. The Church did not condemn any of it. The Crusaders got blanket forgiveness in advance for any sin they may 'have to' commit during the war. This included the aforementioned raping and pillaging.
The Inquisition was mainly concerned with investigating priests. Only Catholics were submitted to it. Pagans were not prosecuted by it.Already addressed, so I'm just seconding Nathan David's statements. And it wasn't just heretics, although they were the main targets. Witches were burned by the thousands and the majority were simple herbalists or had nothing to do with witchcraft at all, but the Church got to keep the property and goods of anyone condemned under the Inquisition. They made lots of money on that one.
Not at all. I would never accept some of the anti-Christian doctrines of Islam (though it also has true doctrines). The post above links to a good and comprehensive description of the Inquisition.Nathan David said:You have been lied to by someone trying to cover up how evil the Inquisition was. First of all, no one person should have the authority to decide whether someone else is a real Christian or not. People were punished for the "crime" of disagreeing with official church teachings. If you think that's OK, I suggest you move to Iran or Saudi Arabia. You would probably be very happy there.