WiccanHeart

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stillsmallvoice said:
While I don't know much about Wicca, I've met more than a few Wiccans on various interfaith boards & without any doubt, I have found them, as a group, to be the most tolerant, patient and unarrogant people I've met on these sites. No Wiccan has ever witnessed at me. No Wiccan has ever told me that I'm necessarily going to hell because I'm Jewish, i.e. not Wiccan. No Wiccan has ever patronized me or treated me as anything less than an equal. And some people dare to call them evil merely because their beliefs are different? As my people say, that's real chutzpah!
Well, Wiccans dont believe in Hell at all. That is a Christian creation. Even so, we wouldn't say anything similiar to that anyway.
 
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WiccanHeart

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Volos said:

Wicca is not the same thing as witchcraft. Wicca is a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief and is part of the larger NeoPagan religion.

Perhaps we follow different Pagan religions because Wicca isnt only a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief that is part of the larger NeoPagan religion.

At least the way I see it, Pagan is the umbrella term for Wicca, Druidism, Shamanism, etc. etc. Wicca is indeed a religion in and of its self that uses Witchcraft within the religion.
 
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WiccanHeart

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Kira Faye said:
The pentagram in wiccan terms represents earth, fire, wind, water, metal and spirit...All five points are the elements and spirit is the centre of all. In my view its a very earth based symbol combining all the elemtnets of the earth and spirit and compining them equally to create a balance with everything..Man I wish I had a good balance between study time and TV time..might help te hehehe. Also I would liek to point out that 'fake' wiccans usually come from what they see on TV and take spells and such off those shows, pretend to cast them etc...
There is no metal in the elements, its Earth, Air, Fire, Water and the top point Spirit.
 
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Cerridwen

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Hey all~
I'm new, so I'm gonna jump right in, lol.


supermagdalena said:
... my point is that it's not the good deeds because no one can, by today's standards, draw the line between good and evil. If you should do what's right in you're eyes, then murder could be right, or anything. So the idea can't be good deeds, because we've all done things wrong, and we've all at a time thought they were right..

Agreed about us all having done things wrong...but that's another wonderful thing about being Pagan...we don't depend on forgivness for salvation or need to fear punishment for misdeeds. We are encouraged-no, required- to have personal responsibility for anything and everything we undertake. That means that no, murder can't be "right in our eyes", because we instinctively know that it isn't. Especially the poster you're referring to, as she, I believe, stated that she is Wiccan, and Wiccans follow the Rede (An it HARM NONE, do what ye will) & the Law of Three. The point is, we don't require Gods standing over us to make sure we behave ourselves, we are responsible for our own actions, & don't have the luxury of blaming our shortcomings on the "devil".



WiccanHeart said:
Perhaps we follow different Pagan religions because Wicca isnt only a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief ... Wicca is indeed a religion in and of its self that uses Witchcraft within the religion.


Wicca is a religious path and a spirituality. Paganism is the umbrella term for all Earth based religious paths, Wicca being one of many. Many Christians define a Pagan as any person who is not Christian, but there are some Heathens or Reconstructionists who do not appreciate that connotation. Witchcraft, in and of itself, is not a religion. Witchcraft is a practice. Not all Wiccans are witches (witches being defined here as people who employ the practice of witchcraft), and not all Witches are Wiccan. One of the worst misconceptions about Wicca and witchcraft is the assumption that the two are the same. They are not. There are several Witches who do not like to be called Wiccan, because it incorrectly labels them with a belief system they do not subscribe to. Additionally, there are many who adhere to the belief system of the religion of Wicca, & never do any kind of witchcraft.

BTW, true, in the Wiccan pentagram, there is only Earth, Air, Fire, Water, & Spirit. But as someone else posted, in other spiritualities, there are other elements used, such as wood, or metal, or sky, and the directional associations & colors may also differ.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*
 
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WiccanHeart

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Rae said:
Actually, the Chinese elements are earth, fire, water, metal, and wood. So yes, there is metal in the elements if you're a Chinese pagan or follow Chinese Gods.

Ok, i should have been more specific. The pentagram used by Wiccans do not use metal as an element. It is strictly Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit.
 
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Lifesaver

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Cerridwen said:
but that's another wonderful thing about being Pagan...we don't depend on forgivness for salvation or need to fear punishment for misdeeds.
Cerridwen, I'm affraid that is not wonderful, but a horrible thing.
Instead of facing the reality of the evil they do, thousands and thousands are being led to believe all is good if they feel good.

We are encouraged-no, required- to have personal responsibility for anything and everything we undertake. That means that no, murder can't be "right in our eyes", because we instinctively know that it isn't.
It's refreshing to see that on some points Wiccans still respect natural morality, but I'm affraid that is not enough.

Especially the poster you're referring to, as she, I believe, stated that she is Wiccan, and Wiccans follow the Rede (An it HARM NONE, do what ye will) & the Law of Three.
So, if an action doesn't harm anyone, Wiccans are free to do it? No matter what action that might be?

The point is, we don't require Gods standing over us to make sure we behave ourselves, we are responsible for our own actions, & don't have the luxury of blaming our shortcomings on the "devil".
Being as good as we can possibly be without faith in God? It is completely impossible. How can someone do good if they don't acknowledge or like Goodness?

No-one has the luxury of blaming shortcomings on the devil. If it were so, no-one would go to Hell.
Adam and Eve were tempted by the devil, but were they not responsible for their own actions? They were. And didn't God acknowledge that and punished them? He did.
 
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Cerridwen

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Hey~


Lifesaver said:
Cerridwen, I'm affraid that is not wonderful, but a horrible thing. Instead of facing the reality of the evil they do, thousands and thousands are being led to believe all is good if they feel good.


Evidently you misread my post. Nowhere within was it stated or implied that we believe all is good if it feels good. An inherently good person, however, does feel good when s/he does a good thing. On the other hand, though, a person can be horrible for their ENTIRE life, murder, rape, steal.... you name it, & all they have to do is get down on their knees & have a clean slate? Oh yeah, some personal responsibilty there.


Lifesaver said:
It's refreshing to see that on some points Wiccans still respect natural morality, but I'm affraid that is not enough.


"Some" points? Try ALL points. Our religion is very moral to us, if it wasn't, we wouldn't be a part of it. Morality is relative, & it's not for you to tell anyone else what is or isn't moral. Morality that is necessary for the perpetuation of the species actually isn't founded in religion, but in secular society, & it most definitely wasn't founded in the Christian religion. It becomes very tiring for those of us who know better-the constant assumption that morality was born with Christianity.

*On a side note* If one wanted to split hairs on morality....even SATANISM has a rule.."You shall not harm little children"...don't see any "rods" or "stonings" of the fruits of our loins outlined in there, do ya?


Lifesaver said:
So, if an action doesn't harm anyone, Wiccans are free to do it? No matter what action that might be?


Um, yes. And where is the difficulty in understanding that? Harm=Bad, No Harm=Good.


Lifesaver said:
Being as good as we can possibly be without faith in God? It is completely impossible. How can someone do good if they don't acknowledge or like Goodness?


Nothing is impossible. Your version of God does not necessarliy equate goodness. Some would argue, and they'd be right, that your version of God is less than good....even sometimes downright mean & spiteful if you read the Bible objectively. Or maybe just Bi-polar ;)? If your God was so good, he'd stop all the horrible things that happen in this world.



Lifesaver said:
No-one has the luxury of blaming shortcomings on the devil. If it were so, no-one would go to Hell. Adam and Eve were tempted by the devil, but were they not responsible for their own actions? They were. And didn't God acknowledge that and punished them? He did.


Sorry, honey, I don't buy it. Since the dawn of Christianity, everything bad or wrong has been blamed on the "devil". If you were sick, you were possessed. If you didin't agree with the Christian dogma 100%, you were/are a heretic, led astray by the "devil". If you lost your temper, it was the "devil" in you. If you decide to be a moronic, homcidal, psychopath...the "devil" made you do it. If you could heal people with herbs, you were murdered or banished, because your "powers" had to have come from the "devil".

Yes, Adam & Eve were supposedly tempted by the "devil". Tempted with what? KNOWLEDGE. God was so worried about not having blind & ignorant adoration, that he forbade them from knowing ANYTHING, & when they slipped, like he "knew" they would (being all-knowing, of course), he punished them-and as if that wasn't enough-EVERY generation after. For something that was His Own Fault. Sorry, Babe, but that doesn't strike me as very loving.


Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*
 
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Rae

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Instead of facing the reality of the evil they do, thousands and thousands are being led to believe all is good if they feel good.
Not by Pagans, but thanks for your concern.

No-one has the luxury of blaming shortcomings on the devil. If it were so, no-one would go to Hell.
No one does go to hell. The Gods are far more good than you give them credit for. :)
 
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Plan 9

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Volos said:
Hi Cerridwen



Welcome to the forums



Lifesaver needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt, he has had the same conversation with several of us before and yet he somehow always manages to misrepresent the Pagan religions.

Yes, Cerridwen! Welcome to CF!

Hi, Volos! :wave: Hi, Everyone! :wave:

I'm your friendly lurker. ;)

Most religions take years of study to get a real feel for; you can't get what you need to know from an internet site or two, and I'm uncertain why people think they can, but they often do? :scratch:

The internet can be a wonderful tool, but it can also give you the illusion you're an expert in all manner of things when you aren't. In fact, the reverse is true: garbage in; garbage out.
I find self-study to be full of pitfalls, even though I took nine hours of philosophy specifically to help me learn how to study fruitfully on my own. I found a truly brilliant professor, and was extemely lucky to do so.

What do you think, Volos? Am I talking through my hat here? If so, I can go right back to lurking. :)
 
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Lifesaver

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Oh, welcome to CF, by the way (I hadn't noticed you were a new member). Don't leave because of the constant arguing. ;)

Cerridwen said:
Evidently you misread my post. Nowhere within was it stated or implied that we believe all is good if it feels good. An inherently good person, however, does feel good when s/he does a good thing. On the other hand, though, a person can be horrible for their ENTIRE life, murder, rape, steal.... you name it, & all they have to do is get down on their knees & have a clean slate? Oh yeah, some personal responsibilty there.
Are you against forgiveness when the wrongdoer has honestly repented?

"Some" points? Try ALL points. Our religion is very moral to us, if it wasn't, we wouldn't be a part of it. Morality is relative, & it's not for you to tell anyone else what is or isn't moral. Morality that is necessary for the perpetuation of the species actually isn't founded in religion, but in secular society, & it most definitely wasn't founded in the Christian religion. It becomes very tiring for those of us who know better-the constant assumption that morality was born with Christianity.
Notice that I mentioned "natural morality"- in other words, a morality that one doesn't need to be Christian (or even have heard about Christianity) to know about.
As for something "being moral to us", I don't think that cuts it.
If a person honestly feels that harming others is moral, are they just as right in his beliefs as someone who thinks harming others is wrong?
Good and evil are and always will be good and evil, regardless of location and opinion.

Um, yes. And where is the difficulty in understanding that? Harm=Bad, No Harm=Good.
A father and a son have sex with each other. Both like it and have no regrets. Was that good?

A husband cheats his wife once. He and his lover enjoy it and have absolutely no regrets. They decide not to do it again, though.
The wife never even suspected about it, and was happy as always.
Was that good?

If your God was so good, he'd stop all the horrible things that happen in this world.
A common mistake.
He grants us freedom, and taking that freedom away would be evil.

Sorry, honey, I don't buy it. Since the dawn of Christianity, everything bad or wrong has been blamed on the "devil". If you were sick, you were possessed. If you didin't agree with the Christian dogma 100%, you were/are a heretic, led astray by the "devil". If you lost your temper, it was the "devil" in you. If you decide to be a moronic, homcidal, psychopath...the "devil" made you do it. If you could heal people with herbs, you were murdered or banished, because your "powers" had to have come from the "devil".
The devil is always tempting us. The decision to sin, though, is not up to him.

Yes, Adam & Eve were supposedly tempted by the "devil". Tempted with what? KNOWLEDGE. God was so worried about not having blind & ignorant adoration, that he forbade them from knowing ANYTHING, & when they slipped, like he "knew" they would (being all-knowing, of course), he punished them-and as if that wasn't enough-EVERY generation after. For something that was His Own Fault. Sorry, Babe, but that doesn't strike me as very loving.
No, Adam and Eve desired to be gods themselves, and to know evil (to do it).
They were greedy.
 
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Volos said:
Lifesaver needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt, he has had the same conversation with several of us before and yet he somehow always manages to misrepresent the Pagan religions.
Volos, Volos... I await the day when you'll stop saying I'm wrong and start telling why I'm wrong.
 
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Lifesaver said:
Oh, welcome to CF, by the way (I hadn't noticed you were a new member). Don't leave because of the constant arguing. ;)

There's some of the best advice I've ever seen a new member given. I wisdh someone had told me that right at the get-go. :)



Notice that I mentioned "natural morality"- in other words, a morality that one doesn't need to be Christian (or even have heard about Christianity) to know about.
As for something "being moral to us", I don't think that cuts it.
If a person honestly feels that harming others is moral, are they just as right in his beliefs as someone who thinks harming others is wrong?
Good and evil are and always will be good and evil, regardless of location and opinion.

Now, you're confusing me, Lifesaver. This sounds like C.S. Lewis's argument for a basic universal morality, and that argument is a pretty strong one; one I could bolster...until you then seem to say that everyone doesn't actually possess this universal moral sense? What am I missing here?

No, Adam and Eve desired to be gods themselves, and to know evil (to do it).
They were greedy.

Where are you getting this, since I'm already asking you one question? If you don't mind, of course. I've noticed that lots of people would rather ignore me as a sort of weird interruption of their real, vitally important debate goal, and that's fine with me; I'm used to it now. :)
 
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Lifesaver

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Plan 9 said:
Now, you're confusing me, Lifesaver. This sounds like C.S. Lewis's argument for a basic universal morality, and that argument is a pretty strong one; one I could bolster...until you then seem to say that everyone doesn't actually possess this universal moral sense? What am I missing here?
It's possible to somehow override our natural sense of right and wrong, though it is never completely lost.
Generally, though, the people doing evil know it is evil, and relativism only comes in as a cheap attempt to justify their actions.

Where are you getting this, since I'm already asking you one question? If you don't mind, of course. I've noticed that lots of people would rather ignore me as a sort of weird interruption of their real, vitally important debate goal, and that's fine with me; I'm used to it now. :)
The Bible.
 
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peaceful soul

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Plan 9, Look at these verses:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
 
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