Wicca

[Nathan David]

The nobility was responsible for defending the land, including the peasants. They were in charge of the army and responsible for all military strategies and did much of actual fighting as well.
It hadn't stolen anyone's land, but won it after the conquest of the Roman empire. The kings of these barbarian nations gave parts of their land to trusted allies, and these gave parts of their lands to their trusted allies, and so on.

That's the story the nobility told to justify the social structure they benefitted from.

He had the possibility to freely reject the devil's offer, but he didn't choose it. Do you believe in the existence of free will?

Yes. But according to your story, God created Adam and put him in a situation to be susceptible to the serpent's temptation. Seems to me if Adam had been created perfect as you said, he would have used his free will to reject the serpent's offer.

 

[Nathan David]

The Inquisition was mainly concerned with investigating priests. Only Catholics were submitted to it. Pagans were not prosecuted by it.

You're forgetting that everyone in Europe was required, by law, to be Catholic. Pagans were indeed persecuted by the Inquisition because paganism wasn't supposed to exist anymore.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
There you go.

Wow. What a sorry batch of propaganda. That's like reading a history of the Holocaust written by Nazis.

 

[Lifesaver]

That's the story the nobility told to justify the social structure they benefitted from.

And what is the story Nathan David tells?

Yes. But according to your story, God created Adam and put him in a situation to be susceptible to the serpent's temptation. Seems to me if Adam had been created perfect as you said, he would have used his free will to reject the serpent's offer.

But then he would not have free will at all, would he?

 

[Lifesaver]

You're forgetting that everyone in Europe was required, by law, to be Catholic. Pagans were indeed persecuted by the Inquisition because paganism wasn't supposed to exist anymore.
Wow. What a sorry batch of propaganda. That's like reading a history of the Holocaust written by Nazis.

Do you disagree with its factual data?

 

[Nathan David]

And what is the story Nathan David tells?

The story that is repeated constantly throughout history: men who are good at using weapons use violence to seize power; they use this power to get other people to do their work for them. Then they make up stories to justify this arrangement.

But then he would not have free will at all, would he?

Yes, he would. Reread my post: Adam could have freely chosen to reject the serpent's temptation. He didn't. What does that say about the choice and about Adam's state of mind?

 

[Nathan David]

Do you disagree with its factual data?

I disagree with some of its assumptions, including this one:

But eventually Christian Europe was so endangered by heresy

They do not show how heresy was a danger to Christian Europe.

 

[Lifesaver]

The story that is repeated constantly throughout history: men who are good at using weapons use violence to seize power; they use this power to get other people to do their work for them. Then they make up stories to justify this arrangement.

So, as the Roman empire ended, the land was communally shared among all barbarians (to leaders, religious figures and common folk alike), and then some evil ones, who were good at using weapons, stole them?
Is that it?

I'm affraid we'll find out my "nobility's version" has more factual data behind it.

Yes, he would. Reread my post: Adam could have freely chosen to reject the serpent's temptation. He didn't. What does that say about the choice and about Adam's state of mind?

That he chose personal gain over trust and love, as he was free to do.

 

[Lifesaver]

I disagree with some of its assumptions, including this one:
They do not show how heresy was a danger to Christian Europe.

Then I suggest you read about some of the most important heresies:
Albigensianism, waldensianism, arianism, protestantism (sorry about any misspelling). There might be others which I forgot.

 

[Smilin]

He didn't. What does that say about the choice and about Adam's state of mind?

From the beginning, men have been weak in resisting the temptations
of a woman.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mythological serpent tempted Eve,
Eve convinced Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit of knowledge..


1. First consider that God forbid eating from the tree of knowledge,
stating that their 'eyes would be opened'. i.e.... a God who
didn't desire his Creation knowledge?

2. The persuasiveness and charms of a woman have been the
weakness of many men.

 

[Plan 9]

From the beginning, men have been weak in resisting the temptations
of a woman.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mythological serpent tempted Eve,
Eve convinced Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit of knowledge..


1. First consider that God forbid eating from the tree of knowledge,
stating that their 'eyes would be opened'. i.e.... a God who
didn't desire his Creation knowledge?

2. The persuasiveness and charms of a woman have been the
weakness of many men.

Many of us women haven't done any better at resisting your charms, have we? Men are often our weakness, too.

 

[Nathan David]

So, as the Roman empire ended, the land was communally shared among all barbarians (to leaders, religious figures and common folk alike), and then some evil ones, who were good at using weapons, stole them?

No. European history started a long time before the Roman Empire.

 

[Nathan David]

Then I suggest you read about some of the most important heresies:
Albigensianism, waldensianism, arianism, protestantism (sorry about any misspelling). There might be others which I forgot.

What was dangerous about them?

 

[SquareC]

The Inquisition was mainly concerned with investigating priests. Only Catholics were submitted to it. Pagans were not prosecuted by it.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
There you go.

You're forgetting that everyone in Europe was required, by law, to be Catholic. Pagans were indeed persecuted by the Inquisition because paganism wasn't supposed to exist anymore.

Exactly my point. Thank you! Anyone that wasn't Catholic was a heretic, automatically.

Wow. What a sorry batch of propaganda. That's like reading a history of the Holocaust written by Nazis.

That is precisely what I thought when I read it! Puh-leeze spare me the propoganda!

North of Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Spain and Portugal were Christian lands conquered by Islam.

North of Africa and the Middle East were Christian? Really? Yes, Eastern Europe was a part of it, note I said most, not all. But the majority of the fighting in the Crusades took place in the Middle East and Africa, which are not and were not "Christian Lands" Having Christians living there doesn't make it default "Christian lands conquered by Islam" when the majority of the population wasn't Christian.

 

[Nathan David]

And Jerusalem was never Christian, so that argument doesn't wash either.

 

[SquareC]

What was dangerous about them?

They disagreed with the Catholic church and had the audacity to think for themselves. New thoughts are always dangerous to the established heirarchies.

 

[Lifesaver]

That is precisely what I thought when I read it! Puh-leeze spare me the propoganda!

Sure, believe it is all propaganda, without reading and without providing any evidence...
We all know Neo-Paganism doesn't value objective truth that much, anyway.
If truth is subjective, one can choose their beliefs...

North of Africa and the Middle East were Christian? Really? Yes, Eastern Europe was a part of it, note I said most, not all. But the majority of the fighting in the Crusades took place in the Middle East and Africa, which are not and were not "Christian Lands" Having Christians living there doesn't make it default "Christian lands conquered by Islam" when the majority of the population wasn't Christian.

If you want some facts instead of your opinions, you can get them at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

But of course, it is all "propaganda", and why bother reading through it when you already know, right?

 

[Lifesaver]

And Jerusalem was never Christian, so that argument doesn't wash either.

Never?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08355a.htm

 

[Nathan David]

I determined it was propaganda after reading it.

So, why were those heresies dangerous to Europe?

 

[Nathan David]

Never?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08355a.htm

That's right. It was the center of Christianity at the very beginning, but the city itself was majority Jewish, by population, and Roman ruled.

 

[Lifesaver]

"Nor were their views less fatal to the continuance of human society, for on the one hand they forbade marriage and the propagation of the human race. and on the other hand they made a duty of suicide through the institution of the Endura (see CATHARI). It has been said that more perished through the Endura (the Catharist suicide code) than through the Inquisition. It was, therefore, natural enough for the custodians of the existing order in Europe, especially of the Christian religion, to adopt repressive measures against such revolutionary teachings. "