Why would God create a flawed creation?

[thepromiseofgrace]

After 78 pages of replies that has evidently gone in circles ... to summarize, it seems to me that there really is no good Christian response to this:

* Heaven is allegedly free from sin, evil, corruption .. which implies that its residents no longer possess the ability to choose (e.g. to choose evil or anything less than perfect) and are thereafter automatons. Yet the presence of Satan in heaven (Job 1) and his free will to rebel against God seems to reject this potential.

* Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience). Yet, if he can create something perfect on his second try but not on his first, this implies he possesses omnipotence but no omnibenevolence or omniscience ... is that even possible?

Either way, there exists unsolved logical conundrums, against the nature of mankind or against the Christian concept of God and his realms. Seems like the argument needs to go to a deeper level, to question the underlying suppositions regarding the very nature of mankind and/or God.

your conclusions are again tainted.

if a law abiding area of the world existed would it be because they were incapable of breaking the law or because they did not want to break the law.

 

[ananda]

your conclusions are again tainted.

if a law abiding area of the world existed would it be because they were incapable of breaking the law or because they did not want to break the law.

"Yet the presence of Satan in heaven (Job 1) and his free will to rebel against God seems to reject this potential."

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

"Yet the presence of Satan in heaven (Job 1) and his free will to rebel against God seems to reject this potential."

satan did sin yes as did some of the angels, but that does not mean they had to, it does not mean God does not know everything or he is not all powerful.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

That is as absurd as talking about square circles.

Not only is it not absurd, it's ridiculously easy to grasp. But first, two questions:

1. Do you have free will?
2. Have you ever, or will you ever, molest a child (lets say a 6 year old just to be more precise), all things being equal?

You can probably already guess what I'm going to say next by the questions I've asked, but let's start by answering them anyway.

 

[ananda]

satan did sin yes as did some of the angels, but that does not mean they had to, it does not mean God does not know everything or he is not all powerful.

Then why create something that included Satan and sin in his first try, and exclude Satan and sin on his second try?

"Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience)"

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Then why create something that included Satan and sin in his first try, and exclude Satan and sin on his second try?

"Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience)"

Christianity as a whole would be better off by abandoning the ideas of omnipotence and omniscience. Prominent 20th-century Christian philosopher Charles Hartshorne wrote a book called Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes that all Christians should read.

 

[Messy]

Why would a perfect being in heaven exercise free will and reject that perfection?

The only explanation to me seems to be that he wasn't created perfect.

The Bible says he was the seal of perfection. I get the idea that after that God thought: I'm not going to make man perfect, this doesn't work, and now He had a redemption plan.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Then why create something that included Satan and sin in his first try, and exclude Satan and sin on his second try?

"Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience)"

he created a way for people to chose to be with him, he allowed free will to limit his power over us, he allowed the angels and satan to chose to sin and leave his presence, satan and 1 third of the angels did, God already had a plan that his son would fulfill all the things men would need to move out of sin, separation from God and spend eternity with God, they could chose to believe in Jesus, who would put them in rightstanding with God for eternity and chose to be in the place of their God forever in a perfect sinless place or they could chose to not be with God and live in sin for their eternity.

none of that says to me God was either powerless or did not know what he was doing or what others were doing.

 

[ananda]

Christianity as a whole would be better off by abandoning the ideas of omnipotence and omniscience. Prominent 20th-century Christian philosopher Charles Hartshorne wrote a book called Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes that all Christians should read.

I agree ... yet we have to struggle with the fact that the Christian Bible indicates that the Christian God claims omnipotence and omniscience in many places.

I have personally come to a more Buddhist perspective in that regard: the Christian God may very well exist in his own heaven and perhaps believe that he is omnipotent and omniscient and pronounce the same, but this is a delusion.

 

[ananda]

The Bible says he was the seal of perfection. I get the idea that after that God thought: I'm not going to make man perfect, this doesn't work, and now He had a redemption plan.

he created a way for people to chose to be with him, he allowed free will to limit his power over us, he allowed the angels and satan to chose to sin and leave his presence, satan and 1 third of the angels did, God already had a plan that his son would fulfill all the things men would need to move out of sin, separation from God and spend eternity with God, they could chose to believe in Jesus, who would put them in rightstanding with God for eternity and chose to be in the place of their God forever in a perfect sinless place or they could chose to not be with God and live in sin for their eternity.

none of that says to me God was either powerless or did not know what he was doing or what others were doing.

Why create earth and a redemption plan at all, dooming countless billions to hell, instead of creating only heaven in the first place?

"Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience)"

Earth is obviously not perfect. Yet, there is Biblical evidence that heaven is decidedly imperfect as well, and that is another issue.

 

[Messy]

I agree ... yet we have to struggle with the fact that the Christian Bible indicates that the Christian God claims omnipotence and omniscience in many places.

I have personally come to a more Buddhist perspective in that regard: the Christian God may very well exist in his own heaven and perhaps believe that he is omnipotent and omniscient and pronounce the same, but this is a delusion.

I don't see that in the Bible. They say that, but when it's an old earth and GAP theory is true, it's two creations, the first without a redemption plan because He didn't see it coming. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world can mean before this world, this recreation.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Why create earth and a redemption plan at all, dooming countless billions to hell, instead of creating only heaven in the first place?

Earth is obviously not perfect. Yet, there is Biblical evidence that heaven is decidedly imperfect as well.

so you wanted God to create robots and make them spend eternity with him.

i think the plan was perfect allowing for both freedom of choice and redemption, you seem to think God should have done it your way.

 

[ananda]

I don't see that in the Bible. They say that, but when it's an old earth and GAP theory is true, it's two creations, the first without a redemption plan because He didn't see it coming. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world can mean before this world, this recreation.

You don't see the Bible claiming God's omnipotence and omniscience?

 

[ananda]

so you wanted God to create robots and make them spend eternity with him.

i think the plan was perfect allowing for both freedom of choice and redemption, you seem to think God should have done it your way.

No ... I believe Christianity generally teaches that heaven is a place of perfection, yet the redeemed men and women who exist there possess choice and individuality and are not robots.

I'm wondering why God didn't just create that place in the first place, without the need for earth/redemption/evil/hell.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

so you wanted God to create robots and make them spend eternity with him.

i think the plan was perfect allowing for both freedom of choice and redemption, you seem to think God should have done it your way.

As I've already mentioned, it's demonstrable that an omnipotent god could create beings with free will but without the propensity to cause suffering.

The "Robots" spiel is a false dichotomy.

 

[Messy]

You don't see the Bible claiming God's omnipotence and omniscience?

Yes now for this creation since Adam, but how could He know about satan, that would mean He had knowledge by experience of good and evil, you only get that through sinning or experiencing evil. It would mean He wasn't innocent and Jesus who's God is an innocent Lamb.

 

[lt11]

No ... I believe Christianity generally teaches that heaven is a place of perfection, yet the redeemed men and women who exist there possess choice and individuality and are not robots. I'm wondering why God didn't just create that place in the first place, without the need for earth/redemption/evil/hell.

you are making a presumption that there was another way that would be better than this way without even having the kind of knowledge it would take to even know if that is a possibility. If you say to me that the God of the Christian is all powerful and all knowing I will tell you that scripture says that God cannot lie so there is things that God will not do because they violate other things that would make him contradictory.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

He was perfect, but just an angel, he couldn't become like God, who can't sin, we can.

If Satan wanted something more, then you can't say that he was perfect. You can't get better than perfection.

If Satan was not happy with what he had, that tells me things probably went so "perfect" in heaven.

When things are perfect, it would never occur to anyone to improve upon them. If we lived in a perfect world, there would be nothing more to desire.

This is where the whole story falls apart.

 

[ananda]

Yes now for this creation since Adam, but how could He know about satan, that would mean He had knowledge by experience of good and evil, you only get that through sinning or experiencing evil. It would mean He wasn't innocent and Jesus who's God is an innocent Lamb.

Not believing that God is omniscient/omnipotent is probably not the orthodox Christian position

 

[ananda]

you are making a presumption that there was another way that would be better than this way without even having the kind of knowledge it would take to even know if that is a possibility. If you say to me that the God of the Christian is all powerful and all knowing I will tell you that scripture says that God cannot lie so there is things that God will not do because they violate other things that would make him contradictory.

Yet ... "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." Jeremiah 20:7 or "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." 1 Kings 22:23 ... "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." Ezekiel 14:9