Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Messy]

...............................................

Where in God's Word do we read that "God is limited"?
Where in the N.T. do we read of "the free will of man"?

Messy, you've been lied to...
(either by your church or by false teachers).

For God "works ALL things after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11) -- not man's.

This is His will:
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I don't see Jesus who is God saying anywhere to anyone: I don't want to heal you.
Then why is not everyone saved and healed?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

the bible is full of free will of man.

 

[Gottservant]

You tell me. What do triggers have to do with it?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Connected triggers indicate whether a reason, has a valid foundation.

Well so if a trigger cannot be shown to be connected or connectable, how can you make your reason function in relation to a foundation meaningfully?

And if you don't function in relation to a foundation meaningfully, how can you achieve anything that would justify it (the reason)?

Do you think Buddha is justified? How? I tell you no, he simply waits (and finds in waiting that waiting is at least more justified than doing nothing, which combined with doing nothing is enlightenment).

 

[Eudaimonist]

Connected triggers indicate whether a reason, has a valid foundation.

I don't see how that follows.

Well so if a trigger cannot be shown to be connected or connectable, how can you make your reason function in relation to a foundation meaningfully?

What is the challenge here?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gottservant]

I don't see how that follows.

Because if you can't connect a trigger, you can't identify whether you are on or have a meaningful relationship to your foundation.

Well so if you can't identify your foundation, how can you call "reason" reason?

What is the challenge here?


eudaimonia,

Mark

The challenge is to call reason "reason", because it's reason.

I'm giving you a closed loop, because that seems the only way to stress the point that reasoning requires commitment, that stems from the power of planning (to activate the brain sufficiently).

The point is you should be using your reason to align your triggers with your future, for the sake of enlarging or preserving your commitment.

Without that, you will get nothing done.

Without that, you will justify nothing.

Without that, you will die (because you cannot see that which is justified, when it is (justified))

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I'd just like to ask are we still talking about the OP topic? I am interested in this topic, but not so much with triggers and reason and other stuff. Just want to know where this thread is heading.

 

[ananda]

by the time you get to heaven you have made your choice to be with God, that's what heaven is.

So after that choice on earth and one gets to heaven, God takes away that ability to choose?

 

[Messy]

So after that choice on earth and one gets to heaven, God takes away that ability to choose?

No but who on earth (wrong expression) would want to sin there? You get His nature when you're born again, what is born from God can't sin. Only thing that tempts us to sin is the flesh which isn't there anymore.

 

[brixken7]

This is His will:
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I don't see Jesus who is God saying anywhere to anyone: I don't want to heal you.
Then why is not everyone saved and healed?

....................

Everyone WILL be saved, but it's not God's Plan to do it when you or I might want. We need patience.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

No but who on earth (wrong expression) would want to sin there? You get His nature when you're born again, what is born from God can't sin. Only thing that tempts us to sin is the flesh which isn't there anymore.

Satan apparently found a way to sin and rebel in heaven.... Why would we be any exception?

That freewill you guys talk so much about seems to be non-existing in heaven if you can't choose to do your own thing.

 

[ananda]

No but who on earth (wrong expression) would want to sin there? You get His nature when you're born again, what is born from God can't sin. Only thing that tempts us to sin is the flesh which isn't there anymore.

Satan sinned in heaven. Was he a flawed creation, then?

 

[ananda]

Man was originally in perfect communion with God (pre-apple, pre-sin) ... Man through his freedom to CHOOSE made a choice. ... God created man in His image, with the freedom of choice. God never intended for us to blindly serve Him. He wanted us to WANT TO serve and love Him ... So fast forward to today. Man still has to CHOOSE God through His Son Jesus Christ. Man still has to CHOOSE.

That again begs the question about the nature of the Christian heaven. Is there no longer choice in heaven?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

So after that choice on earth and one gets to heaven, God takes away that ability to choose?

by that time i hope the author and finisher of our faith has perfected us and sin will not be in us.

may i ask why you would want to chose to sin?

 

[Messy]

Satan sinned in heaven. Was he a flawed creation, then?

He was perfect, but just an angel, he couldn't become like God, who can't sin, we can.

 

[ananda]

by that time i hope the author and finisher of our faith has perfected us and sin will not be in us.

may i ask why you would want to chose to sin?

Why did Satan want to choose to sin?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Why did Satan want to choose to sin?

he wanted the praise and worship, he wanted God's place, it is a very different thing.

 

[ananda]

He was perfect, but just an angel, he couldn't become like God, who can't sin, we can.

Why would a perfect being in heaven exercise free will and reject that perfection?

The only explanation to me seems to be that he wasn't created perfect.

 

[ananda]

he wanted the praise and worship, he wanted God's place, it is a very different thing.

But men cannot make that choice in heaven?

 

[ananda]

After 78 pages of replies that has evidently gone in circles ... to summarize, it seems to me that there really is no good Christian response to this:

* Heaven is allegedly free from sin, evil, corruption .. which implies that its residents no longer possess the ability to choose (e.g. to choose evil or anything less than perfect) and are thereafter automatons. Yet the presence of Satan in heaven (Job 1) and his free will to rebel against God seems to reject this potential.

* Or, if free choice is somehow present in heaven, this implies that the Christian God does have the ability to create a perfect, incorrupt environment ... but chose not to on his first try (non-omnibenevolence) or could not on his first try (with earth ... non-omnipotence), or did not see the consequences of his first action (non-omniscience). Yet, if he can create something perfect on his second try but not on his first, this implies he possesses omnipotence but no omnibenevolence or omniscience ... is that even possible?

Either way, there exists unsolved logical conundrums, against the nature of mankind or against the Christian concept of God and his realms. Seems like the argument needs to go to a deeper level, to question the underlying suppositions regarding the very nature of mankind and/or God.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

But men cannot make that choice in heaven?

Angels can as satan shows and the third who followed him did, perhaps men can but i have know idea why they would, it talks about heaven being a place with no pain, suffering, and nothing of sin is in the presence of God, so either we are changed so much that we are incapable of sinning or we just have no concept of sinning and therefore do not.