Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Messy]

That doesn't make sense. He could create a being that, like himself, infallibly chooses to do good, but which lacks all the other properties that would characterise it as a deity. Obviously, since he is the one creating it, it wouldn't be a god; it would merely be like God in the ethical dimension. Christians already believe that we are like God in certain aspects; that we are created "in his image and likeness." They obviously don't take that to mean that God created other gods.

The 2/3 of angels that didn't fall, but still they had a choice. Creating such a man would be Jesus and He isn't created, but He's God and in the end we will be like Him if we want to.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The 2/3 of angels that didn't fall, but still they had a choice. Creating such a man would be Jesus and He isn't created, but He's God and in the end we will be like Him if we want to.

I'm not following. Obviously they were not created to infallibly choose goodness, hence the fall. Are you suggesting that those angels that didn't fall were created to infallibly choose goodness? If so, you've just undermined Craig's argument.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

i think people mix up the idea of God not being all powerful and all knowing with him not doing as we want or think is a good idea.

God does not wipe out all sin so he is not all powerful, the fact he does not wipe out all sin does not mean he can not do it.

 

[jacknife]

Yes He's got all power, but He's limited to do as He pleases by free will of man, if His will was done on earth everyone was saved and healed and Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned in the first place.

Not sure i follow. man limits god?

 

[Messy]

I'm not following. Obviously they were not created to infallibly choose goodness, hence the fall. Are you suggesting that those angels that didn't fall were created to infallibly choose goodness? If so, you've just undermined Craig's argument.

They were created with free will, they chose not to follow satan. Man isn't created to infallibly choose goodness, I think that isn't possible. Only Jesus could do that and there was already evil that had to be dealt with when man was created.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

i think people mix up the idea of God not being all powerful and all knowing with him not doing as we want or think is a good idea.

God does not wipe out all sin so he is not all powerful, the fact he does not wipe out all sin does not mean he can not do it.

Which raises the question of why, if he is capable, he chooses not to.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

They were created with free will, they chose not to follow satan. Man isn't created to infallibly choose goodness, I think that isn't possible. Only Jesus could do that and there was already evil that had to be dealt with when man was created.

They chose not to follow Satan, and presumably they will remain with and serve God forever, so aren't they infallibly choosing to do good? Does that make them gods?

 

[Messy]

They chose not to follow Satan, and presumably they will remain with and serve God forever, so aren't they infallibly choosing to do good? Does that make them gods?

Oh I see what you mean, my English isn't that good, no you're right, it was a bad argument. I think God wanted to do that, only make those perfect angels and then one started to rebel and took 1/3 with him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Oh I see what you mean, my English isn't that good, no you're right, it was a bad argument. I think God wanted to do that, only make those perfect angels and then one started to rebel and took 1/3 with him.

But God knew the moment he created each individual angel whether that angel would serve him or rebel. He created the rebelling angels knowingly. He could have created only devout angels, thus preventing Lucifer's fall from ever happening, and ultimately preventing the fall of man, original sin, and death. Contrary to Craig's assertion then, he could have created beings that infallibly choose to do good without creating beings equal to himself.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Which raises the question of why, if he is capable, he chooses not to.

It could do but it is like asking a butterfly, why the universe is so vast.
We live perhaps 80 years on average, there are older trees than us, what we comprehend about our immediate habitat still has huge gaps in it despite the best of intentions of scientists.
A great deal of our beliefs that science has given us boils down to the best guess based on the information we have at the moment.

For us to question why he hasn't is asking a lot.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It could do but it is like asking a butterfly, why the universe is so vast.
We live perhaps 80 years on average, there are older trees than us, what we comprehend about our immediate habitat still has huge gaps in it despite the best of intentions of scientists.
A great deal of our beliefs that science has given us boils down to the best guess based on the information we have at the moment.

For us to question why he hasn't is asking a lot.

I don't think it's asking a lot at all. This is a being that many religious people claim is loving, just and all good. Asking why an omnibenevolent being who possesses unlimited power and foreknowledge wouldn't intervene to prevent evil seems like a good question given that combination of properties.

 

[Messy]

But God knew the moment he created each individual angel whether that angel would serve him or rebel. He created the rebelling angels knowingly. He could have created only devout angels, thus preventing Lucifer's fall from ever happening, and ultimately preventing the fall of man, original sin, and death. Contrary to Craig's assertion then, he could have created beings that infallibly choose to do good without creating beings equal to himself.

That's not in the Bible. It only says He declares the end from the beginning, the beginning of this world. How can He when He was innocent like He created Adam in His Image have known that angel would become evil? He created him as the seal of perfection. How can pure Light even think of a possibility of evil?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I don't think it's asking a lot at all. This is a being that many religious people claim is loving, just and all good. Asking why an omnibenevolent being who possesses unlimited power and foreknowledge wouldn't intervene to prevent evil seems like a good question given that combination of properties.

You might pray and ask God to show you why. It's better than stewing in injustices that you do not understand.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I don't think it's asking a lot at all. This is a being that many religious people claim is loving, just and all good. Asking why an omnibenevolent being who possesses unlimited power and foreknowledge wouldn't intervene to prevent evil seems like a good question given that combination of properties.

but would we understand the answer, would the answer prove he wasn't all knowing or all powerful if you didn't understand it.

 

[brixken7]

Yes He's got all power, but He's limited to do as He pleases by free will of man, if His will was done on earth everyone was saved and healed and Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned in the first place.

...............................................

Where in God's Word do we read that "God is limited"?
Where in the N.T. do we read of "the free will of man"?

Messy, you've been lied to...
(either by your church or by false teachers).

For God "works ALL things after the counsel of His own will" (Ephesians 1:11) -- not man's.

 

[jacknife]

You might pray and ask God to show you why. It's better than stewing in injustices that you do not understand.

that would be an odd approach. i dont pray to Zeus to understand Greek mythology better, i dont preform the ritual to ask lady Astaroth questions. why would i ask god to explain his stories?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

that would be an odd approach. i dont pray to Zeus to understand Greek mythology better, i dont preform the ritual to ask lady Astaroth questions. why would i ask god to explain his stories?

I don't think it is an odd approach at all.

You are asking the type of question that only God Himself can answer. Since so many of us have testified to you that God is indeed there, I would ask Him. The worst thing that can happen is that you spent 15 minutes praying.

I don't understand why someone would post a bunch of questions that no one but God could answer and then ask other people. That seems much odder to me.

I will pray for you. Dear Lord, please help Jacknife to understand that you have a perfect will and a perfect plan for all the world. Open his eyes to see you as the God he can go to and pray to for greater understanding of what he does not currently understand. As your Word says, Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened. Ask and it shall be given. I ask for a blessing for this brother and for his greater understanding of you and all you are. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

 

[Gottservant]

I don't agree that that is true.

We can think about the past or the present. We can also think about theory without any immediate concern for practice. We can seek truths simply because we are curious. It's not all about practical concerns for the future.

In any case, I don't see how such "commitments" matter at all to the authority of reason. You are only speaking of triggers to reason.


eudaimonia,

Mark

How is reason authoritative, without being able to comment on its triggers?

You will notice in your observation, you did not actually give a reason - which (since you were contradicting me) is precisely, the point.

 

[Gottservant]

that would be an odd approach. i dont pray to Zeus to understand Greek mythology better, i dont preform the ritual to ask lady Astaroth questions. why would i ask god to explain his stories?

Because unlike stories, God is a living God. (selah)

 

[Eudaimonist]

How is reason authoritative, without being able to comment on its triggers?

You tell me. What do triggers have to do with it?


eudaimonia,

Mark