Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[ThreeAM]

Wow you are that literal. !!

No Jim its just that you were using non sequitur reasoning and I was trying to point the obvious out for you. I guess you failed to grasp my point.

 

[kw5kw]

No Jim its just that you were using non sequitur reasoning and I was trying to point the obvious out for you. I guess you failed to grasp my point.

do you mean Secular?

 

[rstrats]

YahwehisHisname,


re: "Yahshua’s Soul and His resurrection body had already ascended, having become the living embodiment and the prophetic fulfillment of the Miqra of FirstFruits just after meeting with the women.

I’m confused. The first half of your sentence says that the Messiah "had already ascended" and the second half says the fulfillment came "just after meeting with the women." What am I missing?

 

[jochanaan]

Do you keep Saturday or Sunday as your Sabbath?

I keep the Christian/Jewish Sabbath on Saturday.

 

[jochanaan]

By being legalist or be following the law from the heart? Ritual traditions are just that, action without the heart. True Sabbath is to be from the heart rather than legalism. Every 7th day, people will rest because they are allowed to work 6 days a week. The first SEVEN days happened when God created the earth and we didn't even have a calendar until much later.

My Sabbath-keeping is indeed from the heart, as a result of much Scripture study.

And the Jews, who though they may not accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord are some of the best record-keepers in the world, still affirm that the day called Saturday is the Biblical Sabbath day. Even the Gregorian calendar acknowledges this, and so do many astronomers.

 

[jochanaan]

The 'quirk' about this whole argument is:
The words using the names of the week never appear in the Bible.
Nowhere will you find these words:
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday.

The only references are:
The first day of the week, cf Mark 16:9; John 20:1, 19; Matt 28:1; Mark 16:1,2; Acts 20:7 Now on the first [day] of the week [i.e. Sunday], the disciples having been gathered together to break bread, Paul began holding a discussion with them, being about to be departing the next day, and he kept prolonging the word [fig., discussion] until midnight.
; 1Co 16:1,2 Now concerning the collection, the [one] for the holy ones, just as I gave instructions to the assemblies of Galatia, in the same way also _you*_ must be doing. On every first [day] of [the] week [i.e. every Sunday], let each one of you* be putting aside [something], storing up [or, saving] whatever he shall be prospering, so that when I come, at that time, collections shall not be taking place.
and Rev 1:10


The last day of the week, the Sabbath day is, as we all know, all through the Holy Scriptures.

What does this have to do with anything? I believe others have sufficiently demonstrated that the weekly cycle we experience now is the same as it was in Biblical times; why does it matter what the days are called?

"Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two equals four." --George Orwell, 1984

 

[JimfromOhio]

My Sabbath-keeping is indeed from the heart, as a result of much Scripture study.

And the Jews, who though they may not accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord are some of the best record-keepers in the world, still affirm that the day called Saturday is the Biblical Sabbath day. Even the Gregorian calendar acknowledges this, and so do many astronomers.

So MAN's traditions are really important that Sabbath is actually about Ritual traditions that have to be on a SPECIFIC DAY (Saturday) rather than from the heart on the 7th day of a person's working cycle whether they are a doctor, accountant, mother, garbage man?

Regarding Rituals... I like the Message verses of the following:

Matthew 12:7
If you had any idea what this Scripture meant--"I prefer a flexible heart to an inflexible ritual'--you wouldn't be nitpicking like this.

Mark 7:2
They noticed that some of his disciples weren't being careful with ritual washings before meals.

In ESV "And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless."

Romans 2:25
Circumcision, the surgical ritual that marks you as a Jew, is great if you live in accord with God's law. But if you don't, it's worse than not being circumcised.

In ESV "For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision."

Colossians 2:12
If it's an initiation ritual you're after, you've already been through it by submitting to baptism. Going under the water was a burial of your old life; coming up out of it was a resurrection, God raising you from the dead as he did Christ.

In ESV "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

Ritual is more about the Law than Grace. People judge others based on the Sabbath Day so we will be judged by God. In Romans 2:17-18 says "Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law" Then later in Romans 2:28-29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God."

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

 

[JimfromOhio]

I keep the Christian/Jewish Sabbath on Saturday.

Cool....

I have my sabbath every 7th day with is Saturdays and Worship God on Sundays.

A reminder:
Ephesians 2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[jochanaan]

So MAN's traditions are really important that Sabbath is actually about Ritual traditions that have to be on a SPECIFIC DAY (Saturday) rather than from the heart on the 7th day of a person's working cycle whether they are a doctor, accountant, mother, garbage man?

Well, since the LORD God did say something about the Seventh Day, it just might be helpful to determine which day that is if we can, as long as we're setting aside one day in seven.

As for the various jobs, I have never indicated that emergency workers (which often include mothers, as you suggest) should not do their work on the Sabbath, so I don't see why you said anything about them.

Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

Amen! Not even you, who seem to be judging me as a legalist because I keep the Fourth Commandment literally as well as in my heart.

 

[jochanaan]

A reminder:
Ephesians 2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.

No, we are not saved by works! But as Paul says a verse later, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (vs. 10) Or are you implying that no Christian should do works at all? That's tantamount to continuing in sin.

I don't understand your position. With one sentence you affirm the Sabbath's validity; yet with the next you undercut it by suggesting that it is "of the heart." By that logic we would not be obligated to honor literal marriage, since true marriage is "of the heart."

(Please: I am not questioning your salvation. It is obvious that you love the Lord as much as I do. Vigorous debate does not need to equal personal attacks.)

 

[JimfromOhio]

Amen! Not even you, who seem to be judging me as a legalist because I keep the Fourth Commandment literally as well as in my heart.

That's my whole point.

If anyone wants to attend Church on Saturday, it is God's grace and blessings. If anyone wants to attend Church on Sunday, it is God's grace and blessings.

As I posted a quote earlier on the study of Romans 14:

"One of the marks of maturity is the ability to disagree without becoming disagreeable. It takes grace. In fact, handling disagreements with tact is one of the crowning achievements of grace." Chuck Swindoll

 

[JimfromOhio]

No, we are not saved by works! But as Paul says a verse later, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (vs. 10) Or are you implying that no Christian should do works at all? That's tantamount to continuing in sin.

I don't understand your position. With one sentence you affirm the Sabbath's validity; yet with the next you undercut it by suggesting that it is "of the heart." By that logic we would not be obligated to honor literal marriage, since true marriage is "of the heart."

(Please: I am not questioning your salvation. It is obvious that you love the Lord as much as I do. Vigorous debate does not need to equal personal attacks.)

It was not personal attack but very direct on what people say or do. Becoming engrossed in spiritual debates (such as Sabbath) often causes a person to be zealous. We all have to be careful careful with our zealous behavior when discussing topics with those who don't "practice" similar ritual. There are many important issues that are so burdensome but not as important as loving God with all of a person's heart, mind and soul. We need to look past the multiplicity of issues and find the few that really matter in a person's spiritual life. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT) In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT)

 

[jochanaan]

All right, I think I see where you're coming from. Yes, our love for God and each other is much more important than keeping the Sabbath or any other regulation.

Shall we leave it there for the moment?

 

[BrightCandle]

The most 'popular' version of all time -- the KJV -- didn't even use the word 'sabbath'![/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

The NASB and ESV are rated #1 & #2 as the most literal of the English translations, the KJV is rated #3. The point is that the two most literal translations, translate Hebrews 4:9, more clearly by using the word "Sabbath" insead of "rest", which gives weight to the continuing of the 7th day Sabbath into the NT time period and beyond.

 

[BrightCandle]

It was not personal attack but very direct on what people say or do. Becoming engrossed in spiritual debates (such as Sabbath) often causes a person to be zealous. We all have to be careful careful with our zealous behavior when discussing topics with those who don't "practice" similar ritual. There are many important issues that are so burdensome but not as important as loving God with all of a person's heart, mind and soul. We need to look past the multiplicity of issues and find the few that really matter in a person's spiritual life. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT) In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT)

The issue of this thread (see OP) is not legalism, but the hardness of heart and spiritual delusion of those who claim to keep the Ten Commandments, but for the most part ignore the very commandment that Jesus said to "Remember".

 

[johnd]

Let me ask you a few questions:

1. Why did Jesus have to die for our sins if the Ten Commandments could have been changed?

Who said they were changed? They simply meant more than originally interpretted. By believing in Messiah Shabbat is kept every day in this age.

2. The Bible defines sin as "lawlessness" see I John 3:4, therefore if what you have stated above is true, then are we now free to continue in lawlessness, now that Jesus died for our sins?

No. We are freed from sin (Romans 8:2) in that the blood of the Lamb cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

3. Hebrews 4:9 uses a capital "S" for "Sabbath" in the two most literal English translations the NASB and the ESV, denoting the 7th day Sabbath, not a ceremonial sabbath or age of sabbath rest. Literally meaning a Sabbath keeping as been left for the people of God in the last days. Which is exactly the SDA position. And if as you stated above, we are indeed living in the "Sabbath Age", why not keep the 7th day Sabbath every week, as the 4th Commandment clearly states, as written in stone by the finger of Jesus?

Classic case of jerking a text from its context. Hebrews 4 contrasts those who keep a weekly sabbath in unbelief with those who keep the sabbath every day of every week by our belief. The entire chapter proved my point that this is the sabbath age and that SDA's position is wrong.

 

[Nightfire]

His life preached louder than any words when it came to the Sabbath. If you figure from even 12 years old to 33 years old, Jesus kept over 1,000 7th Sabbaths. In fact, He even rested on the 7th day in tomb. There is no record of Him ever keeping any 1st day "sabbaths", and there is definitely no record of Jesus ever giving a new Sabbath commandment changing it to the 7th day to the 1st day. Misguided churchmen did that centuries later, and Popes, church councils, and Roman Emperors put the finishing touches on the 1st day, when it comes adding "sanctification" to Sunday in the form of civil laws.

I apologize for the late response. Jesus life was exactly that: His life. He was circumcized - do we follow that? You might just as well ask, where did Jesus ever tell us to stop being circumcised? As a matter of fact, where did Jesus ever tell us to stop doing anything written in the Law (first five books of Moses)?

The fact is that Christians read the Old Testament through Christ-coloured glasses. It was meant to lead us to Him. And now that we have found him, certain things have changed. Like I told tall73, it may not be in the gospel, but it is the gospel (the New Testament itself is something that wasn't in the Hebrew Bible, but cameas the result ofChrist). Of course Jesus didn't celebrate his own resurrection while He was living on earth as a Jew, living as his parents brought Him up. One of the commandments was to honour them, and He never disobeyed them, but still God's will weighed heavier for Him (as we see when He remained behind in the temple; see also Heb. 12:9-10). In the same way, we consider Jesus' resurrection to weigh heavier on us than the sabbath. We remain in Him, rather than return to the sabbath, even though it still leads to Him. Jesus himself is the moral content of God's sabbath (just like worshipping the Trinity has the moral content of keeping the first commandment) - the seventh day was sanctified so that all of creation might look forward to His rest; Jesus entered that rest in the grave, and through Him we enter that rest ourselves. Now that we have found it, we remember something else when we think of the sabbath. We still remember it, as God commanded, but not just ceremonially.

So, where Israel remembered the escape from Egypt, Christians remember their escape from death - God rested Yesterday, we believe and live it Today (Heb. 4:7). It's this progression that people find hard to accept - they don't feel warranted to move on, and they question the motives of the early church when it moved on. They doubt the authority by which the move took place from a law-centred faith to a grace-centred faith. But the authority wasn't "misguided churchmen, Popes, church councils, and Roman Emperors" - they're the convenient scapegoats of this conspiracy theory - it was the very act of Jesus dying on the cross, the implications of which ran all the way from Acts to Revelations and continues to this very day. And not all of which could be recorded in the Bible, just like no everything Jesus did was recorded in the Bible. For instance, Christians don't punish people in the way the Law prescribes anymore, even though such punishments were as much commands as anything else, they even introduce the concept of "ceremonial" and "moral" law without such disinction ever being made anywhere in the Bible... there's a whole list of such things that could be considered arbitrary innovations, which are rather conveniently swept under the mat when people want to argue about the Really Important laws, like the sabbath.

When Jesus gave his sermon on the mount, He was effectively interpreting some things God himself had commanded (even though he also addressed some of the additions that had been made through the years). He placed his interpretation on the same level of authority as God's originals, giving the whole law - not just the ten commandments - such new depth that they could never be understood the same way again. He applied it to all the commandments - yet for some reason, even though Jesus often put his words into practice on the sabbath, of all days, the sabbath gets singled out as if Jesus had no effect on it. And that's not what Hebrews declares, no matter how much you want to argue about subtle definitions of words.

If you believe that you're better remembering what God did (and therefore adhering to this commandment "more closely") when you keep the seventh day as a ceremonial or holy day, then you are acting according to your faith and nobody can fault it. But if other Christians believe that they're remembering what God did by keeping Sunday, and remember this day as the day of their creation (yes, creation: Eph. 2:15; 4:24), God's rest, and our salvation, then they are similarly acting on faith. And it's no lesser faith than a faith that upholds the seventh day, based on no lesser promises or covenant.

Not the Saturday, not the Sunday, nor any other day of an earth-week, but the Sabbath will remain after the heavens have disappeared and the elements had been destroyed by fire. Because long after we stopped having calendars, we will still have Christ. That's the perspective I wish to have on every earthly activity, and every law. My effort to enter this sabbath rest (Heb. 4:11) has very little to do with ceremonies or other physical boundaries, although they are good for learning discipline, but has every bit to do with my attitude towards God and my neighbour - which starts internally, in the heart, not on tablets of stone.

2 Cor. 3:11
And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Heb. 12:26-29
At that time [at Horeb] his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since [Today - Heb. 4:7] we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."​

 

[Nightfire]

I don't understand your position. With one sentence you affirm the Sabbath's validity; yet with the next you undercut it by suggesting that it is "of the heart." By that logic we would not be obligated to honor literal marriage, since true marriage is "of the heart."

May I comment on this? Look at Jesus' comments on divorce in Matt. 5 and 19. People were doing just that: they were seeing marriage as a literal agreement, something on paper that could be dissolved by something on paper. Jesus calls this attitude a "hardness of heart". So to honour marriage, or the sabbath, in one's heart, would mean to start honouring it long before the day arrives, or the papers are signed, and even longer afterwards.

 

[Cliff2]

May I comment on this? Look at Jesus' comments on divorce in Matt. 5 and 19. People were doing just that: they were seeing marriage as a literal agreement, something on paper that could be dissolved by something on paper. Jesus calls this attitude a "hardness of heart". So to honour marriage, or the sabbath, in one's heart, would mean to start honouring it long before the day arrives, or the papers are signed, and even longer afterwards.

Your reasoning in no way does away with the 7th day Sabbath.

In fact you are right in how you suggest we should honour the Sabbath. Long before it starts and long after it ends we should still be honouring the 7th day Sabbath.

 

[kw5kw]

Reply to JimfromOhio in the ’10 cmd no sabbath’ # 1-727.doc

So MAN's traditions are really important that Sabbath is actually about Ritual traditions that have to be on a SPECIFIC DAY (Saturday) rather than from the heart on the 7th day of a person's working cycle whether they are a doctor, accountant, mother, garbage man?

<snipped for brevity... I wish more people would do this!>

This is to agree with you Jim!...
God made the world in 6 days, and He rested on the seventh day! God did not name the days of the week, He just simply stated that man should work for 6 days and rest on the seventh day, a day that He called the “Sabbath”. My point of the days of the week not being in the Holy Scriptures is valid.

I’ve used these example for years now…
I was born on a Saturday, should my Sabbath be on Friday?
My oldest daughter was born on a Tuesday, should her Sabbath be on Monday?
My payday runs from Wednesday to Tuesday, Should I stop and worship on Tuesday because that’s my 7th day?

do you know?
what happened in 1582 and 1751?
The calendar changed
in 1582 the dates were:
10/3/1582
10/4/1582
10/15/1582

the dates of 10/5 to 10/15 were skipped to make the calendar correct... 10 days, kinda throws the 7 day week off doesn't it?

In 1751 the British empire adopted it from the days of: 2/10 to 2/21... 11 days (because they waited nearly 200 years to put it into effect) and it misses up the calendar even more.

Of course the Jewish and Islamic use completely different calendars than the 'western' world. We've kinda forced our calendar on them. The chinese use their own. The Jewish is totally different than one from the west.

Hense the man made calendar is just that... man made.


“”The actual word "Sunday" is derived from the German word "Sonntag" (and they likely got it from the Scandanavians). These folk too placed a great deal of importance on the sun. Some tribes of these Germanic peoples invaded England in the 500's or so. They were known as the Angles and the Saxons. The old English work was "sunnandaeg" and it changed over time to become our current, "Sunday".””[1]
“”…During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day. The Teutonic nations seem to have adopted the week as a division of time from the Romans, but they changed the Roman names into those of corresponding Teutonic deities. Hence the dies Solis became Sunday (German, Sonntag). Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it (Sunday) began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God.
…
St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they ment together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi). …””[2]

“”Saturday is the only day of the week that retained its Roman origins in the wake of the English invasions of the Angles and Saxons. This may have been because there was no Norse God to roughly correspond to the Roman God of Time and the Harvest, Saturn. The Anglo-Saxons simply adapted the Roman, "dies saturni", making it saterdaeg.””[3]
“”What Is the First Day of the Week?

The Bible clearly makes the Sabbath the last day of the week, but does not share how that corresponds to our 7 day week. Yet through extra-biblical sources it is possible to determine that the Sabbath at the time of Christ corresponds to our current 'Saturday.' Therefore it is common Jewish and Christian practice to regard Sunday as the first day of the week (as is also evident from the Portuguese names for the week days). However, the fact that, for example, Russian uses the name "second" for Tuesday, indicates that some nations regard Monday as the first day.[4]
In international standard ISO-8601 the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has decreed that Monday shall be the first day of the week.””
Again, an organization of men, not God.

[1] http://www.indepthinfo.com/weekdays/index.shtml in particular:
http://www.indepthinfo.com/weekdays/sunday.shtml


[2] http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm

[3] http://www.indepthinfo.com/weekdays/saturday.shtml


[4] http://webexhibits.org/calendars/week.html