Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[rstrats]

JimfromOhio,

You have a question directed to you in post #316.

 

[Cliff2]

You wrote we were being 'lawless'. I don't see that. I wonder how you, not you personally, but how anyone does with the first commandment. I don't think we do very good. The ACLU can point that out too, and all the other sins we commit. I think you make a good point, but it's us against them argument is all it is. Nothing for the building up of the saints. Take care, Tapero

Not only the first commandment but the other nine are often in the same boat.

 

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio,

re: "First day of the week IS Sunday. Seventh day of the week is Saturday."

That is correct. What is your point?

We judge others based on the Sabbath Day so we will be judged by God. In Romans 2:17-18 says "Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law" Then later in Romans 2:28-29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God."

Are we heavenly minded or earthy minded? We are to observe the Sabbath EVERY DAY as 2 Timothy 1:9 says "Who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time." In Mark 3:4 I love this quote when Jesus asked the Pharisees: "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

In Romans 12:1 Paul said "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." Galatians 3:15 supports this regarding "The Law and the Promise": "Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case."

Worship and fellowship in a visible local Church and become deeply involved in the participation of a local assembly (Romans 12:1-8; 1 Corinthians. 12:25-31; 14:12, 26; Hebrews 10:24-25; I Tim. 3:14-15) are very important. . We should be judging ourselves rather judging others. God is not impressed by my appearance (1. Samuel 16:7). The Lord said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person's thoughts and intentions (heart)." (NLT)

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Everyone is making a big issue regarding the Sabbath. Hebrews 4:9 10 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." Colossians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is not about throwing stones, it is about doing what Jesus said, and simply said: "If you love me, keep my commandments." Note, He did not say: "If you love me, do your own thing." That is what you call "cheap grace" which being dispensed freely all across the US and Canada these days.

And P.S. the religious leaders that I listed are not ones that I look up too, there no SDA leaders in the list, but there were some of the "heavy hitters" of the Evangelical churches here in the US. I listed them to show the inconsistent position that they are in by promoting the 10 Commamdments as being for "all manking", except the Sabbath of course which they say is changed to Sunday, but with no Command from God to back up their claim.

Read my post #323.

 

[rstrats]

JimfromOhio,

In the immortal words of Struther Martin; "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

In your post #311 you wrote; "Sunday is the Christian Sabbath because it is the day Christ arose. " I commented that I didn’t know of any indisputable scripture that said that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week. You then offered Luke 24:1 in what I assume was in response to my comment. However, Luke 24:1 does not indicate when the resurrection actually occurred, so you apparently intended it for some other purpose. I would still like to know what indisputable scripture you used to make the assertion that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week.

 

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio,

In the immortal words of Struther Martin; "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

In your post #311 you wrote; "Sunday is the Christian Sabbath because it is the day Christ arose. " I commented that I didn’t know of any indisputable scripture that said that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week. You then offered Luke 24:1 in what I assume was in response to my comment. However, Luke 24:1 does not indicate when the resurrection actually occurred, so you apparently intended it for some other purpose. I would still like to know what indisputable scripture you used to make the assertion that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week.

Are you saying that resurrection didn't happen on the first day of the week? Easter Sunday is another reminder when we celebrate Jesus' resurrection.

Matthew 28:1-3 (The Resurrection)
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

Getting together on the first day of the week.
Acts 20:7
[ Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas ] On the first day of the week we came together to break bread.

 

[Oblio]

Seeing as the very first Christians celebrated, even went to their deaths for the belief that Christ rose on Sunday, I think it is good enough for me.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Seeing as the very first Christians celebrated, even went to their deaths for the belief that Christ rose on Sunday, I think it is good enough for me.

Amen !!

 

[jochanaan]

My problem with legalism is that it can't produce a pure heart. Legalism is from the Law while Grace is from the Heart.

I don't worship on Sabbath to gain a pure heart; the Lord is purifying my heart so that I can obey His commands, including Sabbath worship.

I wonder how you, not you personally, but how anyone does with the first commandment.

Well, at least I don't recommend altering or abolishing it!

Are you saying that resurrection didn't happen on the first day of the week?

Whether it did or not, I find no instruction in Scripture to alter or abolish the Sabbath.

It is true that there are serious questions regarding which Torah regulations we obey, and which we are free to set aside. Certainly the command to Abraham to circumcise himself and his descendants is clearly revoked by Paul for the Gentiles in Galatians. But such questions have only attached to one of the Ten Commandments. None of the other Nine have been challenged as the Fourth has.

Is it possible, as C.S. Lewis speculates in his novel Perelandra, that the Lord gave us this one commandment that seems to make little sense in order that we may learn to obey Him truly? Even in things that make no sense? Without rationalization, without justifying ourselves in the breaking, in the face of ridicule and misunderstanding even from our own Christian brothers and those who seem to have authority over us?

 

[JimfromOhio]

I don't worship on Sabbath to gain a pure heart; the Lord is purifying my heart so that I can obey His commands, including Sabbath worship.

I was not referring to "gain" but I was referring to Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

Without Jesus, I am a nobody however when I serve Christ as He is in me, I am somebody. Christ commanded me to love God and others with all of my heart, mind and soul; I am to live in the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.(see: Galatians 5:22). Christ's definition of Beatitudes (Matthew 5) contradicts the world's standard of happiness. True happiness can only come from one source which is Jesus Christ. True happiness begins in my heart, mourning over sin which leads to meekness. From the attitude of meekness, I hunger and thirst for righteousness. Through Jesus Christ, I can receive God's mercy and righteousness that my heart will be pure. When I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord, the Holy Spirit came into my heart and cleansed my sins and purified my heart. Jesus Christ cleaned our sins and all God wants us to do is be Christ-like. God wants our hearts more than He want us to follow rules. The Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts with all the power and gifts of God, necessary to enable us to walk the noble, spiritual, Son-like life with God.

 

[jochanaan]

...God wants our hearts more than He want us to follow rules.

Of course! But He also wants us to follow His rules. "...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." --Matthew 23:23

 

[JimfromOhio]

Of course! But He also wants us to follow His rules. "...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." --Matthew 23:23

Lordship is not legalism. Lordship is LOVE.

Matthew 22:36-38 (New International Version)
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment.
Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

Philippians 3:12-14 (NIV)
"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

1. Living in Spiritual Worship: Romans 12
2. Living in Love: 1 Corinthians 13 and 1 John 3
3. Living in Spirit: Galatians 5 and Hebrews 5 - 6
4. Living in Light: Ephesians 5 and 1 John 1
5. Living in the Armor of God: Ephesians 6
6. Living to know Christ: Phillipians 3 and 2 Peter 1
7. Living Spiritually Alert: 1 Thessalonians 5
8. Living in Faith: Hebrews 11
9. Living Close to God: James 4
10. Living in Holiness: 1 Peter 1
11. Living in Truth: 2 John

 

[jochanaan]

Lordship is not legalism. Lordship is LOVE.

Again, I very much agree. However, part of loving someone is to do what they ask. Most married couples, even newly married ones, will tell you that "love" is NOT enough; there must also be mutual submission, considering the other before yourself, and sometimes even deep discussions regarding how to live together. How can you say you love someone if you continually re-interpret their clear requests?

I have said and said on other threads that I do not obey the Sabbath literally from a misplaced sense of necessity, but rather out of loving obedience to what I understand the Lord has requested. And if you believe that I'm really a legalist despite all my disclaimers, just read my comments in the threads about women pastors, lust, and Christian naturism to see how much of a legalist I'm not.

 

[rstrats]

JimfromOhio,

re: "Are you saying that resurrection didn't happen on the first day of the week?"

No. It could have been Saturday or Sunday. I realize that a number of organizations base their religious beliefs not only on the Bible but also on extra -Biblical writings and tradition. That’s fine. However, the issue for the purpose of my part of this discussion is concerned only with the Biblically based portion supporting those beliefs. I stuck my nose in this topic because I felt there were assertions being made that the Bible says that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week. Since I am not aware of any indisputable scriptures that say that, I asked for the Biblical references for those assertions.

re: "Matthew 28:1-3 (The Resurrection)"

The verse does not indicate when the resurrection actually occurred.

re: "Mark 16:2"

Same comment.

 

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio,

re: "Are you saying that resurrection didn't happen on the first day of the week?"

No. It could have been Saturday or Sunday. I realize that a number of organizations base their religious beliefs not only on the Bible but also on extra -Biblical writings and tradition. That’s fine. However, the issue for the purpose of my part of this discussion is concerned only with the Biblically based portion supporting those beliefs. I stuck my nose in this topic because I felt there were assertions being made that the Bible says that the resurrection took place on the first day of the week. Since I am not aware of any indisputable scriptures that say that, I asked for the Biblical references for those assertions.

re: "Matthew 28:1-3 (The Resurrection)"

The verse does not indicate when the resurrection actually occurred.

re: "Mark 16:2"

Same comment.

What part of Matthew 28:1-3 you didn't see?
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, .

1. AFTER the Sabbath
2. Then followed by: dawn on the first day of the week.

 

[rstrats]

JimfromOhio,

re: "What part of Matthew 28:1-3 you didn't see?"

I don’t see where the time of the resurrection is mentioned.

 

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio,

re: "What part of Matthew 28:1-3 you didn't see?"

I don’t see where the time of the resurrection is mentioned.

Ahh... selective reading. Often Christians are "selective hearing" on various topics. From the "surface", Christians are looking doctrines the way people WANT to hear so they could give their time to pursuits more to their liking.

 

[Oblio]

I don’t see where the time of the resurrection is mentioned.

Why would it be ? It was well known by all Christians that Sunday was the day of Resurrection, evidenced by both the Scriptures quoted and affirmed by the Apostolic Fathers of the Church. No early Christian has stated otherwise, the burden of proof is on those that deny the Resurrection on the Eighth/First day of the week.

 

[tall73]

First of all, I would appreciate you dropping by this thread on the historical references to Sabbath-keeping in the early Church from the Adventist and Orthodox views.. You might have some good things to contribute:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2745538-the-history-of-the-sabbath-in-the-early-church-orthodox-and-sda-views.html

The 1st Century Church was observing Sunday worship as early as 90 AD (Almost a full decade before 1,2,3 John, John's Gospel and Revelation were written). We know this from the historical writings, specificly the Didache.

I note that you don't say from the resurrection. I agree with you, it was a later development.

Second, the only way we know how to date the didache is by the relative development of ecclesiology, etc. in the book. Since some of these aspects varied from place to place, and it doesn't seem to make definite references to one dated event or another, we can place it anywhere from 70 AD to perhaps mid-second century. In any case, by the time of Justin, etc. it is clear they are keeping Sunday.

But we see evidence, as you also mentioned, that Sabbath observance was present in the church early on. Paul looked for Christians "in the synagogue." Paul was in the synagogues often preaching to Jews and Gentiles. The Acts 15 council made reference to the preaching of Moses every Sabbath, and the Jersuale, church itself was characterized as "zealous for the law." We know from the Nazarenes, Ebiontes, Apostolic constitutions, Scholasticus, Sozomon, etc. that Sabbath worship continued for centuries, even in the majority of Christendom. And we know from the latter two that Rome was one of the first places to abandon the practice, just as they were one of the moving forces behind abandoning the traditional passover date in favor of an annual Easter Sunday.

So yes, they are distinct. We see both being kept for years.

In addition, Justin Martyr writes the following:

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place , and the memoirs of the apostles are read, as long as time permits...then we all rise together and pray...and when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought..and there is distribution to each."
First Apology of Justin Martyr (100-165)

Yes, and he also made reference to it being in honor of the first day of creation, which is no biblical reason at all. For his other defenses to the emporer he had solid bibilical evidence. Here he did not. Why not?

What those outside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church have been missing here is the Sabbath has always been revered as holy. Rather than leaning not unto their own understanding, they have foolishly assumed that the Church stopped recognizing the Sabbath in favor of the Lord's Day. This is not the case.

Actually, in some ways it IS the case, depending on which church father you read. They downplayed Sabbath as an institution of the Jews, and played up Sunday. This was during a time when Hadrian and others made it very difficult to have any Jewish conventions.

Sunday became the day of Christian worship about 250 years BEFORE Constantine, but Saturday never lost its place as Sabbath. The two are not the same thing.

Yes, it was before Constantine. Clearly if they are forbidden though to Judaize it DID lose its place.

Both sides presented here have not quoted one single shred of historical documentation to support their claim. Just opinion (whose Greek root is where we get the word heresy).

I just finished teaching a unit in Church History on this very subject today.

For a brief overview of Sabbath/Lord's Day debate, I suggest the pamphlet by Matthew Gallatin entitled, "Why We Worship On Sunday." It's printed by Conciliar Press. (Matthew is a former Seventh Day Adventist)

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

If you run accross it online let me know.

God bless

 

[tall73]

to preach to the Jews in their synagogue, who were gathered on Saturday. If they were preaching to Muslims (yes, I know it would be another 700 years) it would have been Friday in the Mosques. What does that prove ? That they went to where the potential converts would be, when they would be there ! If they went there on Sunday, there would be no one to listen to them If they went to the mosques on Friday to preach to Muslims, would that also mean that we should worship on Friday ??

Paul looked for Jews in the synagogue to persecute them before his conversion. So he knew where to find them too.