Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[tall73]

I do not deny the persecuting anyone is persecuting God Himself. But on the Sabbath Paul did not go to the Synagogues specifically to hunt for Christians. If so, like I said, a Paul, the zealous Jew he was, would be breaking the Sabbath himself. In verse 2 you quoted above, it says that he got letter's of permission so to speak from the high Priest, so that when he goes to the Synagogues in Damascus, he has the permission if the High Priest to remove them, and take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. I believe, or I know you read this wrong. No where does it say he went to Synagogues on the Sabbath specifically looking for Christians. Or else like I said, he was breaking the Sabbath...

and if what you said is true, if he broke it as a Jew, why would he keep it as a Christian?

It is great backup in fact. The text says he beat each Christian in the synagogues. Clearly they were associated with the synagogues from the beginning. In John 9 they were ALREADY being put out of the synagogues the writer records. And they were in his day too. WE know this both from history and in Acts.

Moreover Jesus said to His disciples to listen to the pharisees because they sit in Moses seat, but do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. Did Jesus intend then for them to break from the synagogue?

Later we see Paul not only in the synagogues but going to a river to find a place of prayer. We see the Jerusalem church "zealous for the law".

Moreover we know that in the 80's to 90's AD a curse was included on the Nazarenes in the synagogue service that was used to test those there to see who was a
Christian.

The DL itself was adapted from synagogue services as even the article that OrthodoxyUSA on early Christian worship pointed out.

Clearly they were in the synagogues.

Check this thread for more information (as well as a researched statement by your fellow orthodox poster Rdr Iakovos who states this very thing, that the Christians were meeting in the synagogue) :

http://www.christianforums.com/t2745538-the-history-of-the-sabbath-in-the-early-church-orthodox-and-sda-views.html

 

[ThreeAM]

I do not deny the persecuting anyone is persecuting God Himself. But on the Sabbath Paul did not go to the Synagogues specifically to hunt for Christians. If so, like I said, a Paul, the zealous Jew he was, would be breaking the Sabbath himself. In verse 2 you quoted above, it says that he got letter's of permission so to speak from the high Priest, so that when he goes to the Synagogues in Damascus, he has the permission if the High Priest to remove them, and take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. I believe, or I know you read this wrong. No where does it say he went to Synagogues on the Sabbath specifically looking for Christians. Or else like I said, he was breaking the Sabbath...

and if what you said is true, if he broke it as a Jew, why would he keep it as a Christian?

Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Saul went to the Synagoge to identify who the Christians worshiping in the congregation were . He later went to their home to arrest them. Most likely not on the sabbath. The point is the Christians were well known because they continued to worship in the Synagoges. That's why Jews like Saul tried to purge the Christians from the Jewish congregations starting with Stephen.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.


Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:


Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


Clearly Paul knew the synagoges were the places to find Christians.

 

[repentant]

The point is, Paul did not go to Synagogues specifically to find Christians, as you said, but to Worship. Identifying Christians while at the Synagogue was just something he did while he was there. You make it sound like he went to synangogues to specifically seek out Christians which was not the case, especially for a zealous Jew like Paul..

I still don't get the point you are trying to make by Christians being at Synagogues on the Sabbath. It doesn't prove your point. We also know they gathered on the first day of the week as well..

But I am not getting into another Sabbath debate..

And Tall, I thought you were an Orthodox inquirer?

 

[ThreeAM]

Early on the Nazarenes ...Christian Jews...were considered another sect of the Jews much like Sadducess and Pharisees were sects of the Jewish religon. Note that Paul still identified himself with the Jewish religion when he said : "that after the most straitest sect of OUR religion I lived a Pharisee." The Jewish Christians saw the acceptance of Christ as the Messiah as part of the Jewish religion.

Act 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.







1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
a) of the Sadducees
b) of the Pharisees c) of the Christians

 

[repentant]

Early on the Nazarenes ...Christian Jews...were considered another sect of the Jews much like Sadducess and Pharisees were sects of the Jewish religon. Note that Paul still identified himself with the Jewish religion when he said : "that after the most straitest sect of OUR religion I lived a Pharisee." The Jewish Christians saw the acceptance of Christ as the Messiah as part of the Jewish religion.

Act 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.







1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
a) of the Sadducees
b) of the Pharisees c) of the Christians

You can consider yourself a sect of the Jewish religion, but I don't. My Christian religion is the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Christ fullfilled the Law, the Sabbath and everything else that was a shadow of things to come in the Jewish faith.

 

[ThreeAM]

You can consider yourself a sect of the Jewish religion, but I don't. My Christian religion is the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Christ fullfilled the Law, the Sabbath and everything else that was a shadow of things to come in the Jewish faith.

Well apparently Paul thought himself part of the Jewish religion late in Acts and in Romans also.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

SOME of the branches remained on the tree...Jewish Christians then gentile Christians were grafted into the tree with them.


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches [The Jews] , be graffed into their own olive tree?

The Messiah was part of the Jewish religion the problem is few Jews recognized Him. Christ came to to Israel only.

Mat 15: 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

 

[repentant]

Well apparently Paul thought himself part of the Jewish religion late in Acts and in Romans also.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

SOME of the branches remained on the tree...Jewish Christians then gentile Christians were grafted into the tree with them.


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches [The Jews] , be graffed into their own olive tree?

The Messiah was part of the Jewish religion the problem is few Jews recognized Him. Christ came to to Israel only.

Mat 15: 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

What is your point? You are so sparatic. Obviously the first Christians were Jews. Like I said Christianity is the fullfillment of the Jewish Law and faith. I really don't know what your trying to say...

But like I said I am not getting into a Sabbath debate again. Even though you have strayed off the subject here..

 

[tall73]

I still don't get the point you are trying to make by Christians being at Synagogues on the Sabbath. It doesn't prove your point. We also know they gathered on the first day of the week as well..

We know they did eventually. THe point was that they did not abandon the Sabbath. I personally don't mind people worshipping on Sunday. But there is a command to keep the Sabbath.

But I am not getting into another Sabbath debate..

And Tall, I thought you were an Orthodox inquirer?

The post you are referring to was the one on death. Read it again. I never said I was an orthodox inquirer. I said I was interested in answers to specific questions. And since I had never heard the orthodox take on it I was interested in their answer. Some of the answers were helpful.

I am not satisfied with my take on all things Adventist. That is alright, there are always questions, and we undoubtedly do not have all truth. I am an inquirer after the Bible. So far Adventism is the closest I have found to what I find.

However, I will say I enjoy a lot of the articles I have seen on the Orthodox church. Some of their teaching I find quite good. So since I have studied them less than some others I have been asking a lot of questions. But I have not indicated that I am an inquirer which is why I am not allowed to teach, etc. on your forums. I just asked respectful questions.

 

[repentant]

We know they did eventually. THe point was that they did not abandon the Sabbath. I personally don't mind people worshipping on Sunday. But there is a command to keep the Sabbath. .

Well with all these people bringing up the Sabbath and obeying the 4th Commandment, it seems like they say that by worshipping on Sunday we break this Commandment. But obviously they also think they know everyone's daily life, and make assumptions about people that they have no clue about. This breaks a Commandment as well.."Bearing false witness against thy neighbor". They assume that just because we worship and go to Church on Sunday, they assume we don't observe the Sabbath. I personally do not work on weekends. I have lately, but only because work it short of people, and when you work at a hospital you have no choice. Remember Jesus said it is ok to do good on the Sabbath...

But back to the point. God when establishing the Commandment said to rest. So if I or any Sunday Church going Christian rest on Saturday by not working, who are you to say we are doing otherwise? Again people are making false assumptions about other's. Notice how the only people that start these threads are Sabbath observer's or Adventists? They start them to condemn Sunday Church going Christians. Does this sound Christ like to you? Judging other's, and bearing false witness? It does to me. You (well not particularlly you) make assumptions about other's, when in reality you have no idea what people do on Saturday or any other day. I myself stay home and read on Saturday's, and attend Saturday Vesper's. Did you know that the EOC has a Church service on Saturday? Anyway, that is why I hate these type of threads because A) Sabbath keepers are judging other's, and B) They condemn anyone who worships on Sunday without knowing the person, like knowing them would matter anyway. I make everyday Holy to the Lord not just one or two days out of the week. I think He deserves more than one day.

The post you are referring to was the one on death. Read it again. I never said I was an orthodox inquirer. I said I was interested in answers to specific questions. And since I had never heard the orthodox take on it I was interested in their answer. Some of the answers were helpful.

I am not satisfied with my take on all things Adventist. That is alright, there are always questions, and we undoubtedly do not have all truth. I am an inquirer after the Bible. So far Adventism is the closest I have found to what I find.

However, I will say I enjoy a lot of the articles I have seen on the Orthodox church. Some of their teaching I find quite good. So since I have studied them less than some others I have been asking a lot of questions. But I have not indicated that I am an inquirer which is why I am not allowed to teach, etc. on your forums. I just asked respectful questions.

What post..?

I am sorry I though you were an inquirer, but asking questions I guees you are.

And if you want something closer to the Bible, I suggest you take a closer look at Orthodoxy. If you are not satisfied with "all things Adventist" I believe that should tell you something. I would dare to say that every EO Christian is satisfied with all that is Orthodxy. After all we should be. Jesus was the fullfillment of the Truth, and Orthodoxy keeps that Truth..

 

[Cliff2]

Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

Why don't we try and stay on topic more. An excellent topic, there are God's ten commandments that He says to keep and many in the world today only want to keep nine of them.

 

[BrightCandle]

You can consider yourself a sect of the Jewish religion, but I don't. My Christian religion is the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Christ fullfilled the Law, the Sabbath and everything else that was a shadow of things to come in the Jewish faith.

As SDAs we could say that we are a fullfillment of the Reformation of the 16th century, and the Jews could say that they are more ancient that the Orthodox faith therefore have the truth that was given to them directly by God. How can you imagine that something that was written by the finger of God could be a "shadow" of something? The Sabbath and marriage both pre-dated the fall of mandkind, therefore were not shadows of anything. What were shadows were the ceremonial sabbaths which did not exist until the time when Moses wrote them on paper, referred to as the "handwriting of the ordinances". The fact of the matter is that sacred history records that the EOC church did keep the 7th day Sabbath much longer than the western church but over the centuries compromised their faith and came to honor Sunday much in the same way as the Roman Church. If you are truly Orthodox you should start keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. Try it, you will be blest!

 

[Akathist]

I am an Orthodox Christian and attend worship every Saturday evening then again on the Lord's Day. Honoring Saturday eve is part of Orthodox Tradition.

 

[ThreeAM]

I am an Orthodox Christian and attend worship every Saturday evening then again on the Lord's Day. Honoring Saturday eve is part of Orthodox Tradition.

Saturday evening is the 1st day of the week as God counts days.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The Lord's day however is the 7th day of the week.

Mat 12: 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

 

[Oblio]

The Sabbath and marriage both pre-dated the fall of mandkind, therefore were not shadows of anything.

Non-sequiter

If you are truly Orthodox you should start keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy.

I'll leave it up to the Church to decide who is Orthodox, but thanks for the offer

Saturday evening is the 1st day of the week as God counts days.

I see you have not been to an Orthodox service either

Our service begins in the evening before the setting of the sun (i.e. on Cubbota, or Sabbath in English), and continues (after recounting the original creation in Ps 103) into the Eighth day at the singing of the ancient hymn O Gladsome Light which commemorates and exhalts Christ coming into this world.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

As SDAs we could say that we are a fullfillment of the Reformation of the 16th century, and the Jews could say that they are more ancient that the Orthodox faith therefore have the truth that was given to them directly by God.

And they would be wrong, since there were no Rabbinic Jews before the second century. We Christians have a common ancestry in the Hebrew patriarchs with the Rabbinic Jews.

How can you imagine that something that was written by the finger of God could be a "shadow" of something? The Sabbath and marriage both pre-dated the fall of mandkind, therefore were not shadows of anything. What were shadows were the ceremonial sabbaths which did not exist until the time when Moses wrote them on paper, referred to as the "handwriting of the ordinances". The fact of the matter is that sacred history records that the EOC church did keep the 7th day Sabbath much longer than the western church but over the centuries compromised their faith and came to honor Sunday much in the same way as the Roman Church. If you are truly Orthodox you should start keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. Try it, you will be blest!

Again you demonstrate a historical misconception. We still consider Saturday to be the seventh day, and in Greek, it is called Sabbaton.

We have altered nothing in the order and sensibility of our resurrectional worship.

We have been told by some how it is that we should celebrate our liturgies and festivals, such as those who tell us that we should celebrate Passover and not Resurrection. Aside from the most obvious, which is that Christ was resurrected on Nisan 16, and not 14, ie firstfruits, the emphasis on death is misplaced, as He destroyed death by death.

Likewise, our true rest is in a day not yet offered to those to whom the Sabbath was given, as the Hebrew epistle clearly indicates. This is a day that we have entered, yet await the full realization of.

 

[ThreeAM]

I see you have not been to an Orthodox service either

An assumption not based in fact

Our service begins in the evening before the setting of the sun (i.e. on Cubbota, or Sabbath in English), and continues (after recounting the original creation in Ps 103) into the Eighth day at the singing of the ancient hymn O Gladsome Light which commemorates and exhalts Christ coming into this world.

I am an Orthodox Christian and attend worship every Saturday evening then again on the Lord's Day. Honoring Saturday eve is part of Orthodox Tradition.

As I commented in my post Saturday evening is in fact the 1st day of the week. Thornygrace made no comment about sabbath afternoon and neither did I.

 

[Akathist]

I was inaccurate in my post, I apologize.

Our service of worship on Saturday starts in the afternoon and ends in the evening. We start before the setting of the sun, so the worship is ON Saturday according to the ancient way of counting days as beginning at the setting of the sun.

My western way of thinking interferes sometimes. I think of Saturday service as being an evening service because I tend to see days starting at sunrise. But of course, the Church counts days starting a sunset.

So, you see, we fully honor the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[Oblio]

An assumption not based in fact

It is either fact, or you wearn't paying attention

As I commented in my post Saturday evening is in fact the 1st day of the week.

The day begins at sunset which is an astronomical event, and that which determines the new day. TG's post clearly was talking about our worship that encompasses both the Sabbath and Sunday. Again, if you knew anything about Orthodox Christianity, you would not have assumed she meant otherwise. (Added: Western relapses aside )

 

[Oblio]

And for those that don't know, Orthodox monasteries set their clocks to the setting of the sun. Unfortunatley, we who are in the world (but not of it) have to work and deal with the pagan society.

 

[ThreeAM]

I was inaccurate in my post, I apologize.

Our service of worship on Saturday starts in the afternoon and ends in the evening. We start before the setting of the sun, so the worship is ON Saturday according to the ancient way of counting days as beginning at the setting of the sun.

My western way of thinking interferes sometimes. I think of Saturday service as being an evening service because I tend to see days starting at sunrise. But of course, the Church counts days starting a sunset.

So, you see, we fully honor the Saturday Sabbath.

That clears it up some, Thanks

So if you fully honor the Sabbath then you also rest from work that day also right? That how God said to remember the Sabbath and to keep it Holy.

Acts 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.