Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[Caissie]

Because my purpose is to show that SDA doctrine is not based on the Bible at all,

Maybe I should open a thread about the Sabbath. I never even attended an SDA church. Actually, I was a (non member) Baptist, that started reading the Bible for myself, when I realized the Sabbath is still a command, and the laws were not done away with. Maybe then you would have to stick with the scriptures.

In law, when people do not have a good argument for their case, the lawyer attacks the witness's credibility. (O.J. Simpson's lawyer attacking Mark Fuhrman...for example).

 

[Cliff2]

Maybe I should open a thread about the Sabbath. I never even attended an SDA church. Actually, I was a (non member) Baptist, that started reading the Bible for myself, when I realized the Sabbath is still a command, and the laws were not done away with. Maybe then you would have to stick with the scriptures.

In law, when people do not have a good argument for their case, the lawyer attacks the witness's credibility. (O.J. Simpson's lawyer attacking Mark Fuhrman...for example).

We all need to stick to the Scriptures. If we did we would keep all the ten commandments and not nine of them.

 

[deu58]

Hi Cassie

Maybe I should open a thread about the Sabbath. I never even attended an SDA church. Actually, I was a (non member) Baptist, that started reading the Bible for myself, when I realized the Sabbath is still a command, and the laws were not done away with. Maybe then you would have to stick with the scriptures.

In law, when people do not have a good argument for their case, the lawyer attacks the witness's credibility. (O.J. Simpson's lawyer attacking Mark Fuhrman...for example).

We already have several Sabbath threads where I and many others have disproved the SDA Sabbath position in many ways many times, The SDA Sabbath position is nothing like the Messianic position,


There is much more to this than you are aware of, It gets difficult dealing with the Messianic view along side the SDA view because people lose site of or do not really know what is really the SDA position,

Even on the Sabbath threads we are not really disscusing the Sabbath per se with the SDA's , We are discussing the Mark of the Beast, The SDA Three angels message is comprised of three basic elements,

I am probably strecthing forum rules here but I will take my chances in trying to explain this,

According to SDA three angels meesage based on the visions of Ellen White,

The pope is the anti christ,

All protestant church's that hear and reject their message will become the false prophet,

Sunday is the Mark of the beast spoken of in Revelation,

The SDA's believe that there will be a world wide Sunday law imposed some how by the pope, They believe that what they call apostate protestantism will join forces with the Papal Rome to enforce this law world wide, That is why they say we are the false prophet becase we will be the ones to force the world to worship the beast,

The SDA's believe that in the great tribulation we will hunt them down and kill them for keeping the Sabbath,


For the SDA the Sabbath is a salvation issue, No sabbath no salvation.

The SDA view today is that any Christian who has not yet heard their message is safe, But if an SDA comes to you with their Sabbath doctrine and you hear it and do not accept it, You have just lost your salvation,

This has nothing to do with the OT legal requirements,

Due to the rules of this forum Cliff, Brightcandle, <><, and other SDA's are seriouly limited to how much of the third angels message they can debate here because to truly discuss it they would have to label large groups of people as not Christians,

Now as far as I know there is no messianic that thinks any such thing as the SDA's do, The Messianics although pro Sabbath do not believe we will lose our salvation if we do not accept thier point of view, Nor have I met any messianics who believe we are going to kill them,

To be able to show the falsehoods of this message it is necessary to show it's source, And it is not the bible,

As to attacking credibility do you see any SDA's who have challenged any thing I have posted about Ellen G White? Lots of complaints from them but nothing to prove that what I have stated is not true,

If she was truly the Prophetess of God for today does it not strike you just a little strange that they would prefer that you do not hear about her?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Dark Knight]

I hope you don't shave the sides of your face or wear clothes made out of mixed materials.

I only shave one side....does that count?

 

[Cliff2]

Hi Cassie



We already have several Sabbath threads where I and many others have disproved the SDA Sabbath position in many ways many times, The SDA Sabbath position is nothing like the Messianic position,


There is much more to this than you are aware of, It gets difficult dealing with the Messianic view along side the SDA view because people lose site of or do not really know what is really the SDA position,

Even on the Sabbath threads we are not really disscusing the Sabbath per se with the SDA's , We are discussing the Mark of the Beast, The SDA Three angels message is comprised of three basic elements,

I am probably strecthing forum rules here but I will take my chances in trying to explain this,

According to SDA three angels meesage based on the visions of Ellen White,

The pope is the anti christ,

All protestant church's that hear and reject their message will become the false prophet,

Sunday is the Mark of the beast spoken of in Revelation,

The SDA's believe that there will be a world wide Sunday law imposed some how by the pope, They believe that what they call apostate protestantism will join forces with the Papal Rome to enforce this law world wide, That is why they say we are the false prophet becase we will be the ones to force the world to worship the beast,

The SDA's believe that in the great tribulation we will hunt them down and kill them for keeping the Sabbath,


For the SDA the Sabbath is a salvation issue, No sabbath no salvation.

The SDA view today is that any Christian who has not yet heard their message is safe, But if an SDA comes to you with their Sabbath doctrine and you hear it and do not accept it, You have just lost your salvation,

This has nothing to do with the OT legal requirements,

Due to the rules of this forum Cliff, Brightcandle, <><, and other SDA's are seriouly limited to how much of the third angels message they can debate here because to truly discuss it they would have to label large groups of people as not Christians,

Now as far as I know there is no messianic that thinks any such thing as the SDA's do, The Messianics although pro Sabbath do not believe we will lose our salvation if we do not accept thier point of view, Nor have I met any messianics who believe we are going to kill them,

To be able to show the falsehoods of this message it is necessary to show it's source, And it is not the bible,

As to attacking credibility do you see any SDA's who have challenged any thing I have posted about Ellen G White? Lots of complaints from them but nothing to prove that what I have stated is not true,

If she was truly the Prophetess of God for today does it not strike you just a little strange that they would prefer that you do not hear about her?

yours in Christ
deu 58

We can get every doctrine right out of the Bible and the Bible alone.

Start a new thread up on any doctrine that we believe and see just how Biblical we are.

 

[deu58]

Hi cliff

We can get every doctrine right out of the Bible and the Bible alone.

Start a new thread up on any doctrine that we believe and see just how Biblical we are.

Well we tried that with the Investigative judgment and you drove everybody crazy and they quit, We tried that with the millenial kingdom and you quit,

And you know that if we go into these doctrines I am going to go deep with Ellen White, Maybe what we should do is see if their are enough people interested and then go to the other place where we do not have any restrictions like we do here, That way we can go through all aspects of the doctrines openly with out worrying about somebody being offending or breaking any rules here,

You know what is going to happen if we start talking about Catholicism,

In fact an SDA just opened two topics you maybe interested in at the other place,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Delta One]

BrightCandle,

It amazes me why the SDAs and other so-called "Sabbath Keeping" worshippers make such a big deal out of this simple difference. If we were to keep following the Old Testament laws, we would be killing the sickos that have sexual relations with animals and many other such crimes. The fact is that many parts of the Old Testament no longer apply to this day and age. Jesus came to erase many parts of the Old Testament and to give the world a new start by following Him.

It might just be me, but your opening thread is not overly well worded... Christians have never endorsed the removal of such things. All of this is apart of "tolerance" and being "politically correct" (IMO to the point where it becomes wrong). America, whether or not we like to admit it, is being more and more secular and as such, the less and less they respect and obey Christian absolutes.

Anyway, what do you SDA's think the Sabbath is? It's just a "day of rest". In fact, we have two whole days of rest out of seven.

The SDA's believe that in the great tribulation we will hunt them down and kill them for keeping the Sabbath.
Yeah, I read about that in a local newspaper "information booklet". The article was strongly anti-Catholic and they referred to what they called "Sunday keepers" (which is a misrepresentation of Christianity as we don't have a "Sabbath" but instead worship on Sunday as it was the day that the LORD was raised - we don't worship a dead God but a living One!) as being evil and the mark of the best who will destroy the so-called Sabbath keepers. I should point out that I don't think it was the SDAs. I believe that we will be called home before the Great Tribulation.

For the SDA the Sabbath is a salvation issue, No sabbath no salvation.
The Bible clearly says that faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is all that one needs to get to the Father. There is no Biblical basis that I am aware of that supports this particular belief of the SDAs.

 

[deu58]

Hi Delta one,

SDA's do not believe in a pretrib rapture, They hold to post trib, As do I, I am not really convinced of the Pre or mid trib doctrines, I used to be pre trib but I see to many weaknesses in the postition Although it is possible and I am all for it if it is really part of Gods plan

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Nightfire]

We all need to stick to the Scriptures. If we did we would keep all the ten commandments and not nine of them.

We are keeping it by believing in Christ. He embodies God's rest:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ (Col. 2:16-17). So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24), for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his (Hebrews 4:10).

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2). For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17).​

The ritual connotation of the Sabbaths and Jewish festivals were fulfilled in Christ, but the moral meanings remain. Just like we don't slaughter a lamb at passover anymore, but partake in Christ.

 

[Cliff2]

We are keeping it by believing in Christ. He embodies God's rest:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ (Col. 2:16-17). So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:24), for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his (Hebrews 4:10).


Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2). For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17).
​

The ritual connotation of the Sabbaths and Jewish festivals were fulfilled in Christ, but the moral meanings remain. Just like we don't slaughter a lamb at passover anymore, but partake in Christ.

Do you agree that nine of the commandments should be kept but obviously not the 4th.

Wonder why?

 

[deu58]

Hi Cliff

Do you agree that nine of the commandments should be kept but obviously not the 4th.

Wonder why?

Because that is how the NT explains it,

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


1ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


*** 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

*** 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Nightfire]

Do you agree that nine of the commandments should be kept but obviously not the 4th.

Please indicate where I said it should not be kept? Have you ever wondered what it means to "keep" it? A sabbath journey is 800 meters. Will you keep to that when someone is in need 900 meters away? "Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath", and "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and like His disciples, I consider following Jesus the same as keeping it as God intended. Jesus was also accused of not keeping the Sabbath (John 9:16). However, if you feel condemned for doing something on a Saturday, you definitely should not (Rom. 14:5).

The only reason we, as "gentiles", have access to the Commandments is through Christ, who adopted us as sons of Abraham's promise. We are not the people referred to in the first commandment, it wasn't our ancestors who were led out of Egypt. That's why I'm not so quick to assume we are able to keep it the way Israel was expected to. You'll notice that the 4th commandment was binding not only to the person hearing it, but to his sons and daughters (who should be stoned if they don't keep it), your employees (servants and animals), and even strangers with you (cf. Numbers 15:32-36). You are also not allowed to light a fire in your home (Ex. 35:3). The commandments were "the story so far". Here's the story up to the end:

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy (Exodus 20:11). We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. (Rom. 6:4-6). Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6). Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17). Now we who have believed enter that rest (Heb. 4:4). They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection (Luke 20:36).
​

 

[deu58]

Hi Nightfire

Please indicate where I said it should not be kept? Have you ever wondered what it means to "keep" it? A sabbath journey is 800 meters. Will you keep to that when someone is in need 900 meters away? "Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath", and "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and like His disciples, I consider following Jesus the same as keeping it as God intended. Jesus was also accused of not keeping the Sabbath (John 9:16). However, if you feel condemned for doing something on a Saturday, you definitely should not (Rom. 14:5).

well said!!!

 

[Mikhail]

Please indicate where I said it should not be kept? Have you ever wondered what it means to "keep" it? A sabbath journey is 800 meters. Will you keep to that when someone is in need 900 meters away? "Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath", and "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath", and like His disciples, I consider following Jesus the same as keeping it as God intended. Jesus was also accused of not keeping the Sabbath (John 9:16). However, if you feel condemned for doing something on a Saturday, you definitely should not (Rom. 14:5).

Actually the 800 Metres you quote is from the outside of the city walls hence the Mount of Olives was within a sabbath days walk from the City Wall.
Shalom,
Mikhail

 

[Caissie]

If we were to keep following the Old Testament laws, we would be killing the sickos that have sexual relations with animals and many other such crimes.

If you are saying that the lay person should put these people to death, then you are wrong. First of all the nation of Israel that God set up with his laws, his judges, and his police officers, do not exist. Nations decided that they would rather have Democracy, Republics, or Communism, vs the Theocracy that God set up.

Second, since I live in America as an ambassador to God's Kingdom, I do not have the right to enforce God's laws here in America. Just like if an ambassador from Indonesia came here, and someone tries to sell him drugs on the streets, he does not have the right to execute him (or enforce his country's laws) in the United States. [But, ambassadors must still obey the laws of their country and the visiting country (so long as they do not conflict with their home country)]

The fact is that many parts of the Old Testament no longer apply to this day and age.

Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exodus 12:14
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17
And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:24
And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

If these laws were abolished at the cross, then God lied, and God changes.

 

[Cliff2]

If you are saying that the lay person should put these people to death, then you are wrong. First of all the nation of Israel that God set up with his laws, his judges, and his police officers, do not exist. Nations decided that they would rather have Democracy, Republics, or Communism, vs the Theocracy that God set up.

Second, since I live in America as an ambassador to God's Kingdom, I do not have the right to enforce God's laws here in America. Just like if an ambassador from Indonesia came here, and someone tries to sell him drugs on the streets, he does not have the right to execute him (or enforce his country's laws) in the United States. [But, ambassadors must still obey the laws of their country and the visiting country (so long as they do not conflict with their home country)]



Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exodus 12:14
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:17
And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:24
And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

If these laws were abolished at the cross, then God lied, and God changes.

If God lied then Jesus cannot be our Saviour. Jesus told us He did not come to destroy the law.

He cannot be talking about the ten commandments.

Agree with your post, well done.

 

[cygnusx1]

those who claim that they can Keep the Law cannot , just one failure means breaking all the Law.


thank God we are saved by Grace.

 

[deu58]

Hi Cliff

If God lied then Jesus cannot be our Saviour. Jesus told us He did not come to destroy the law.

He cannot be talking about the ten commandments.

Agree with your post, well done.

If you are in Agreement with Cassie then you must keep all 613 commandments of the law, Not just 10,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Caissie]

those who claim that they can Keep the Law cannot , just one failure means breaking all the Law.

This is irrelevant. The keeping the law does not save anyone. But that does not mean we should go ahead and scrap the law and commit sin just because we are not perfect.

 

[holo]

This is irrelevant. The keeping the law does not save anyone. But that does not mean we should go ahead and scrap the law and commit sin just because we are not perfect.

I would think it's highly relevant, it's just that you'll have to choose which laws to keep and which to "scrap."

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

See, it says "between ME and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

We're gentiles.