Why we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

This is the second time you've made the claim about the opening post.

I have a question: have you read the opening post?

Yes, I have

You might want to do so since your assertions aren't based in reality.

Which assertions of mine are you referring to?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

God bless you, too!

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:3 - New Century Version

You are joined together with peace through the Spirit, so make every effort to continue together in this way.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Icyspark]

Yes, I have


Which assertions of mine are you referring to?


God bless you, too!

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:3 - New Century Version

You are joined together with peace through the Spirit, so make every effort to continue together in this way.

www.biblegateway.com

Your assertion that the opening post says anything about staying on topic. Ironic that you can't seem to stay focused on any topic.

Note that the OP has requested that we stick closely to the opening post. Do you agree that's a good idea?

To which I replied:

This is the second time you've made the claim about the opening post. I have a question: have you read the opening post? You might want to do so since your assertions aren't based in reality.

Just to be clear, the opening post makes no request "that we stick closely to the opening post." You've made that assertion twice. Why are you making assertions with no basis in reality? Why are you acting like you have no idea what the context of my previous response was? I could be wrong, but it sounds like trolling.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Your assertion that the opening post says anything about staying on topic. Ironic that you can't seem to stay focused on any topic.



To which I replied:



Just to be clear, the opening post makes no request "that we stick closely to the opening post." You've made that assertion twice. Why are you making assertions with no basis in reality? Why are you acting like you have no idea what the context of my previous response was? I could be wrong, but it sounds like trolling.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

OP as in original poster, in this case @trophy33

 

[Leaf473]

@Icyspark
Post #48 is an example that I would take as a request to stay close to the opening post

 

[DamianWarS]

I found similar things when I researched the history of the calendar especially with reference to the seven-day week. It looks like it starts in Babylon

I've heard that things like the way the creation story is laid out in Genesis 1 or clean and unclean foods are a kind of "slap in the face" to the false religious practices in that region

So it seems to fit that the unlucky day for the Babylonians could become the holy day for the Israelites

As an example, a poetic reference to pagan deities

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 27:1 - New American Standard Bible

God’s Blessings for Israel - On that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

www.biblegateway.com

The creation account also seems to have a dig on the Leviathan in the reference to "the deep" in v2.

It says "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,”..."

"The deep" is sort of an odd phrase that we just dismiss but it may be related to the same word for the Leviathan and a direct challenge of a creation myth with a great battle with God. The Leviathan looses and it's body forms the building blocks of life.

The creation account is in a chiastic structure. v2 lays out the chaotic state of the building material like a lump of clay set before a potter. The earth is formless and empty, and in day 3 is formed and full of plant life. The primordial waters the spirit of God is hovering over is organized and separated on day 2 into oceans and sky And the darkness over the deep in a way is a reference to this creation myth battle that is vanquished in spoken word "let there be light" mocking the power of the beast and the myth along with it.

addon:

this is a video of a synopsis of the Babylonian creation myth. picture all of this contained in the phrase "the deep", which would just brush it aside and destroy it with the spoken light like it was nothing. The Babylonian word used for this adversary is "tiamat" and the god "Marduk" destroyed it and used it's corpse to form the sky and earth. the Hebrew word for "the deep" is "tehom", tiamat/tehom are related words and its mention can be seen as clever slight against this myth without actually affirming it but rather taking away its power.

 

[DamianWarS]

Couldn't the 7-day week be handed down from Abraham and the city of Ur from 1900 B.C.?

It's not about when the biblical accounts say it was since it clearly goes back to creation. It's about what the historical evidence says of when it was in practice.

 

[Bob S]

Here is something to help one understand 2 Cor 3, the bible is meant to be carefully and prayerfully studied and its absurd to try and make the case that Paul is teaching we can now worship other gods, or we can now vain God's holy name, and now covet, or steal or break the least the these commandments, the opposite of what Christ taught Mat 5:19-30 and what Paul said was dishonoring God Rom 2:22-23 and sinning Rom 7:7

Yes, that would be absurd. Where did you get the idea anyone is trying to use 2Cor3 to say we can worship other gods? 2Cor3 tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary and the Holy Spirit given to mankind at Pentecost is now humanity's guide. My question is why do you fight what is so plainly written? Obviously, keeping the commandments of God doesn't mean keeping the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments didn't even contain the greatest command ever given. Matt 5:19-30 was written before God did away with the Ten Commandments at Calvary where the new and better covenant was ratified with the Blood of Jesus.

I didn't read the remainder of your L O N G post. Did you copy and paste it? Did you give the originator credit?

 

[trophy33]

The Babylonians venerated the number 7 based on the count of the celestial bodies observable by the naked eye (Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury Jupiter, Venus, Saturn) and the names of the week based on these celestial bodies in the same order (which we still use in English today). they are also credited with forming the 7-day count week marking approximately a quarter of a moon cycle of 28 days divided into 7. A Month was a complete lunar cycle so between months there was added days to align with the lunar cycle. They even venerated the 7th day by abstaining from work and certain foods but the motivation behind it was that they thought it was evil and unlucky so would avoided engagement so as not to be affected by its evil. The name of the day may have some uncertainty since it was a taboo day and not generally thought of as named after their gods (like Saturn's Day). the full moon was a special observed day which would vary from the 14th to the 15th of the month and they called this day "Shabbatu" and this may have been the name of the 7th day as well (but not well supported).

this will be an unpopular idea here but there is a narrative that unpacks the Hebrews adopting the 7th day practice from the Babylonian's influence during their captivity. The Babylonians are said to have the earliest reference of a 7th day week taking place in the 6th century BC, some may object to this saying the bible timeline is older and where that may be the case the written/complied accounts are placed in the Babylonian captivity period also around the 6th century BC.

Yes, the symbolism of the number 7 can be most probably traced through Babylonia to Sumer. However, not even Babylonians considered the 7th day rest to be a command from God, because He created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th, like it was in the Mosaic Law.

 

[trophy33]

It appears to me that the "order ... and focus" you seek are only relevant if someone agrees with your opening post. Your opening post posits three premises. What it doesn't do is provide any evidence to prop them up. It appears to be an appeal to authority, and this is a logical fallacy...

OK, I give up. Not even one of you who keep the Sabbath was able to give me a simple answer whether you accept that "if the premises are true, the conclusion is true", in 5 pages. If you are unable to do even that (a very simple thing), there is no need to actually go through the promises one by one.
I did not claim that the OP is fully complete, it was the first step. Proving or disproving the premises was another step, in order.

Let us make this thread another free, random and chaotic conversation about Sabbath, then, as we are used to.

 

[trophy33]

@Icyspark
Post #48 is an example that I would take as a request to stay close to the opening post

Thanks for your trying. They did not want to cooperate with the OP, though (and even were unable to repeat it correctly without changing).

So, let us let them talk their usual.

 

[Jerry N.]

Cool

Then the Sabbath that we would keep would not be based on what God did in Genesis at creation. Rather, it would be based on what God commanded the Israelites in the wilderness

Does that seem to follow?

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16:22 - New American Standard Bible

The Sabbath - Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

www.biblegateway.com

It is probably both. Hebrews 8:5 says “They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. …” The 24-hour Sabbath commanded in the Torah is probably a shadow of the seventh day of creation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, that would be absurd. Where did you get the idea anyone is trying to use 2Cor3 to say we can worship other gods? 2Cor3 tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary and the Holy Spirit given to mankind at Pentecost is now humanity's guide. My question is why do you fight what is so plainly written? Obviously, keeping the commandments of God doesn't mean keeping the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments didn't even contain the greatest command ever given. Matt 5:19-30 was written before God did away with the Ten Commandments at Calvary where the new and better covenant was ratified with the Blood of Jesus.

In one breath, you claim the Ten Commandments are "temporary" which no scripture says this, but in the next breath ask where did I get the idea that we can worship other gods, yet where the commandment to thou shalt not worship other gods Exo 20:3 is in the Ten Commandments you just claimed were temporary. Then you try to make another illogical argument that the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was against God and His commandments.

Mat 5:19-30 Jesus said breaking these commandments affects our status in heaven, not until the cross. Least in heaven means one won't be there Mat 5:20 The Pharisees also had an issue with the commandments of God Mat 15:1-14

And as far as your other argument that again is not found in scripture that the Ten Commandments are not the greatest commandments when clear scripture says they are, which you claimed are "temporary"

Rom 13: 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

The second greatest commandment to love they neighbor came from the Ten Commandments that shows the details on how to love they neighbor that are summed up in love, its only logical that the commandments on how to love God with all our heart, might and soul the greatest commandment would come from this same unit of Ten- God's perfect law converting the soul Psa 19:7 No greatest love to God would include worshipping other gods which again the commandment is only found in the Ten Commandments or breaking any of His commandments written personally by God who we are submit to and serve. The New Covenant went from tables of stone to tablets of the heart because the words He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and the NC has God enabling us to keep if we don't rebel Rom 8:7-8 which is a much better promise than us trying to obey Gods commandments on our own strength. Breaking and teaching others to break the least of these commandments comes with a serious warning I personally would consider taking more serious.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here is something to help one understand 2 Cor 3, the bible is meant to be carefully and prayerfully studied and its absurd to try and make the case that Paul is teaching we can now worship other gods, or we can now vain God's holy name, and now covet, or steal or break the least the these commandments, the opposite of what Christ taught Mat 5:19-30 and what Paul said was dishonoring God Rom 2:22-23 and sinning Rom 7:7

Do you know of any Christians who actually teach that we are free to do these things? The message in 2 Corinthians 3 is about the law written on stone tablets that brought death and the law written on our hearts that brought life. Obviously it’s unanimous across the spectrum of Christianity that the laws you’ve mentioned above are written in our heart because every Christian knows that these are still to be kept. The Saturday Sabbath on the other hand is obviously NOT written on our hearts because the vast majority of Christianity doesn't keep the Saturday Sabbath. Some believe Sunday is their Sabbath, some believe everyday or any day is their Sabbath and some don’t think they have to rest on any day at all. Pretty much 99% of all Christianity believe that it’s perfectly fine to cook a meal 7 days a week, or to turn on a light switch or flush the toilet or do a load of laundry or wash the dishes. Obviously there’s nothing written on our hearts that are forbidding us to do these things.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you know of any Christians who actually teach that we are free to do these things? The message in 2 Corinthians 3 is about the law written on stone tablets that brought death and the law written on our hearts that brought life. Obviously it’s unanimous across the spectrum of Christianity that the laws you’ve mentioned above are written in our heart because every Christian knows that these are still to be kept. The Saturday Sabbath on the other hand is obviously NOT written on our hearts because the vast majority of Christianity doesn't keep the Saturday Sabbath. Some believe Sunday is their Sabbath, some believe everyday or any day is their Sabbath and some don’t think they have to rest on any day at all. Pretty much 99% of all Christianity believe that it’s perfectly fine to cook a meal 7 days a week, or to turn on a light switch or flush the toilet or do a load of laundry or wash the dishes. Obviously there’s nothing written on our hearts that are forbidding us to do these things.

The Ten Commandments are not suggestions or multiple choice. Cor 2:3 does not say keep 9 of the Ten Commandments and forget the commandment God said to Remember. Choosing our own commandments to keep instead of obeying what God said is essentially making one their own god which is why breaking one of these commandments even in the NC we break them all James 2:10-12 because it is still sin Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 Eze 22:26. God's people keep God's commandments through love and faith Rev 14:12 even if it doesn't make sense to us but we are not god and our ways our not His ways. Taking away the Sabbath commandment comes with removing lot of promises and removing a lot of thus saith the Lords, removing the power behind obeying His commandments Exo 20:11 if we are going to place our faith in the apostles they even taught to obey God over man.

 

[Leaf473]

It is probably both. Hebrews 8:5 says “They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. …” The 24-hour Sabbath commanded in the Torah is probably a shadow of the seventh day of creation.

If the instructions in the law of Moses are a copy of the instructions which are in heaven, then that would be true

Myself, I don't think the same instructions apply in heaven, because then they would be sacrificing animals in heaven

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 29:42 - New American Standard Bible

It shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the doorway of the tent of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet with you, to speak to you there.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

The Ten Commandments are not suggestions or multiple choice. Cor 2:3 does not say keep 9 of the Ten Commandments and forget the commandment God said to Remember.

Choosing our own commandments to keep instead of obeying what God said is essentially making one their own god which is why breaking one of these commandments even in the NC we break them all James 2:10-12 because it is still sin Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 Eze 22:26.

That makes sense so far

Do you have a scripture passage that tells us exactly which commandments to keep?

Bible Gateway passage: Joshua 1:8 - New American Standard Bible

This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will achieve success.

www.biblegateway.com

God's people keep God's commandments through love and faith Rev 14:12 even if it doesn't make sense to us but we are not god and our ways our not His ways. Taking away the Sabbath commandment comes with removing lot of promises and removing a lot of thus saith the Lords, removing the power behind obeying His commandments Exo 20:11 if we are going to place our faith in the apostles they even taught to obey God over man.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Ten Commandments are not suggestions or multiple choice. Cor 2:3 does not say keep 9 of the Ten Commandments and forget the commandment God said to Remember. Choosing our own commandments to keep instead of obeying what God said is essentially making one their own god which is why breaking one of these commandments even in the NC we break them all James 2:10-12 because it is still sin Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 Eze 22:26. God's people keep God's commandments through love and faith Rev 14:12 even if it doesn't make sense to us but we are not god and our ways our not His ways. Taking away the Sabbath commandment comes with removing lot of promises and removing a lot of thus saith the Lords, removing the power behind obeying His commandments Exo 20:11 if we are going to place our faith in the apostles they even taught to obey God over man.

Nobody said anything about obeying man. I’m talking about the law that is written on our hearts. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit writes God’s laws on our heart or not? Because that’s specifically what Paul is talking about in 2 Corinthians 3. So does the Holy Spirit write God’s laws on our heart or not?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nobody said anything about obeying man. I’m talking about the law that is written on our hearts. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit writes God’s laws on our heart or not? Because that’s specifically what Paul is talking about in 2 Corinthians 3. So does the Holy Spirit write God’s laws on our heart or not?

Yes, God's law, which of course includes the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 Luke 23:56. The Sabbath is the only day God gave a number and named and the Sabbath is all over both the OT and NT because it never went anywhere, kept faithfully because God said so. Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Rev 14:12. No where does scripture tell us to follow the popular crowd over obeying God's commandments. It actually says its the small remainder of the original who do Rev 12:17

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, God's law, which of course includes the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 Luke 23:56.

Does everyone in the New Covenant have the Sabbath commandment written in their hearts? Meaning a literal 24-hour period? And they know to physically rest and attend church during that time?

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 8:10 - New International Reader's Version

This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds. I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God. And they will be my people.

www.biblegateway.com

The Sabbath is the only day God gave a number and named and the Sabbath is all over both the OT and NT because it never went anywhere, kept faithfully because God said so. Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Rev 14:12. No where does scripture tell us to follow the popular crowd over obeying God's commandments. It actually says its the small remainder of the original who do Rev 12:17

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, God's law, which of course includes the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13

Then why does 99% of Christianity not have any convictions whatsoever about keeping the Sabbath? Why is it that we have convictions from the Holy Spirit about every other commandment except the sabbath? And if nothing has changed about keeping the letter of the law what is Paul saying in 2 Corinthians 3?