Why the Rev was written before 70 AD

[Notrash]

Lamech was on of the first examples of placing absolute faith in the seed of God which is later exempæified by noah, Abraham, etc...... Peter and called the 'law if faith' in Rom 3:31. Paul says in Rom 9,10 that the jews were missing righteousness because they pursued it by law and works, not by faith (in the person of Jesus as God incarnate) John 6:28,29. I believe its also represented in the Immanuel prophecy of Is 7:14 when the king of that day refused to ask for a sign. He had absolute faith that what God said through the prophet would occur and was rewarded with another prophecy about the coming seed of God and the female Gender. Gal 4:1-4

I believe this also may appæy to the revealing of the 'man of sin' as being the conglomerate of people in disbelief (but still in law ir works) as contrast with the "man of faith and righteousness by that faith.

Nero it is thought, understood the judgements against both the mosaic covt and Rome. He understood dark sentences (judgements).

 

[shturt678s]

I think we must remove "gematria' from the equation. "666" exponentially and emphatically is not, ie, is not, the product of gematria. Revelation employs symbolical numbers, but none are formed by gematria.

In Rev.7:4-8 we have numerical letters for "144" and for "12," for the "144,000" and the twelve "12,000," but these numbers are beyond question symbolical.

A number that is produced by gematria would remain an insoluble conundrum; yet the very title of this Book is "Revelation" (Rev.1:1)!

Humble pie post 70 A.D. Jack

 

[Interplanner]

Notrash,
so you're saying Nero knew of pending destruction for both Israel and Rome? Is there a source for that?

 

[Notrash]

Notrash,
so you're saying Nero knew of pending destruction for both Israel and Rome? Is there a source for that?

If you research preterust archive for quotes about nero, you'll find some interesting activity of his just befire the invasions. Also Paul was preaching the coming judgement to the leadees if rome. Neri's aecond wife was thought to be a jewess. Dan 7 says that he would understand dark sentences.

There is a story that he entered jerusalem, shot an arrow in the air and it came down outside of the walls. He then asked a passing lad what his lesaon was for the day. The lad recited a scripture whuch nero undeestood to refer to a judgement through rome, then against rome.

 

[Notrash]

Emperor Nero,The Beast|Study Archive

Go down till you see preterist commentaries, jewish sources and see the quote from the Talmud

 

[Biblewriter]

Notrash, all your "proofs" have two problems.

The first is that all of them are based on an assumption that the subject of the Revelation was the destruction that took place in 70 A.D. If that assumption is deleted, the "proof" evaporates.

The second is that you assume that the prophecies are only general suggestions of ideas. You simply ignore the many glaring differences between the wording of the prophecies you attempt to expound and the facts as recorded in history.

As an example of the last problem. You said that Revelation 9 is about the Roman armies that cemt to destroy. But you dd not even seem to be bothered by the fact that the armies discussed there had to cross the Euphrates to get to Israel. At that time the Roman armies were on the other side of the Euphrates as Israel was. So they did not have to cross the Euphrates to get to Israel.

 

[Notrash]

Notrash, all your "proofs" have two problems.

The first is that all of them are based on an assumption that the subject of the Revelation was the destruction that took place in 70 A.D. If that assumption is deleted, the "proof" evaporates.i

The second is that you assume that the prophecies are only general suggestions of ideas. You simply ignore the many glaring differences between the wording of the prophecies you attempt to expound and the facts as recorded in history.

As an example of the last problem. You said that Revelation 9 is about the Roman armies that cemt to destroy. But you dd not even seem to be bothered by the fact that the armies discussed there had to cross the Euphrates to get to Israel. At that time the Roman armies were on the other side of the Euphrates as Israel was. So they did not have to cross the Euphrates to get to Israel.

No, your rebuttals are rejected. I do not first presume that the revelation apples to first century events, but that that deduction is logically and reasonably proven by Rev 15:3 referring to the latter end generation of the mosaic covt.

I see the profecies as being best understood by the original recievers of the letters through a sometimes subjective perspectives and of sometimes symbolic language which only people of the mosaic covt or studied and instructed in the OT would have best understood. The futurist tends to look at them objectively and literally as if written to an audience 2000 yrs later.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

No, your rebuttals are rejected. I do not first presume that the revelation apples to first century events, but that that deduction is logically and reasonably proven by Rev 15:3 referring to the latter end generation of the mosaic covt.

I see the profecies as being best understood by the original recievers of the letters through a sometimes subjective perspectives and of sometimes symbolic language which only people of the mosaic covt or studied and instructed in the OT would have best understood. The futurist tends to look at them objectively and literally as if written to an audience 2000 yrs later.

Thats kind of the entire point behind prophecy.. Its for the future when its given.

You are willing to accept that Christ has yet to return, which is a future prophecy, do you not?

 

[shturt678s]

No, your rebuttals are rejected. I do not first presume that the revelation apples to first century events, but that that deduction is logically and reasonably proven by Rev 15:3 referring to the latter end generation of the mosaic covt.

I see the profecies as being best understood by the original recievers of the letters through a sometimes subjective perspectives and of sometimes symbolic language which only people of the mosaic covt or studied and instructed in the OT would have best understood. The futurist tends to look at them objectively and literally as if written to an audience 2000 yrs later.

Rev.15:3, these conquering ones (144,000), standing on the transparent sea, "sing the sacred ode (Rev.5:9; 14:3) of Moses, the slave of God (whose will it was to do with the will of God), and the sacred ode of the Lamb," ie,
the ode which was one as well as the other, the ode which is now appropriated in full.

Yet this song deals with God Himself. The sense, therefore, is: dealing with what God wrought through Moses who, therefore, is also called "the slave of God" who did God's will and not his own, and what God wrought through the Lamb.

The ode magnifies God,

Jack

 

[Interplanner]

But how far in the future is ch 1's "at hand" and "very soon"?

 

[Notrash]

Thats kind of the entire point behind prophecy.. Its for the future when its given.

You are willing to accept that Christ has yet to return, which is a future prophecy, do you not?

I don't think that question can be answered in this forum section. See my blog linked to in my profile.

The Revelation (of the person of Jesus) is written as a letter, indicating a short teem prophecy descriptions and explanatiins to those recieving the letter. Its not written as "GRAPHE to the mosaic civt natiinal people in the same manner that the OT prophets were. It is detailing summarizing and affirming the time of those fullfillments and of the revealing of the favor of the ordinances and elements of the everlasting covt (called new to the people of the mosaic covt).

John was told to include the instructiin to not seal up the words for the time was at hand for their fulfillment to the people recieving the letter. This is in direct contrast with what was told to Daniel, yet both contain some of the same information.


How did God prophecy through Moses that he would extract vengeance upon his enemies in deut 32:42? (NKJV) Who was the deliverer of the humankind who had left the mosaic covt in freedom in chrust in Isaiah 59 as quoted in Rom 11:26?

 

[Notrash]

Rev.15:3, these conquering ones (144,000), standing on the transparent sea, "sing the sacred ode (Rev.5:9; 14:3) of Moses, the slave of God (whose will it was to do with the will of God), and the sacred ode of the Lamb," ie,
the ode which was one as well as the other, the ode which is now appropriated in full.

Yet this song deals with God Himself. The sense, therefore, is: dealing with what God wrought through Moses who, therefore, is also called "the slave of God" who did God's will and not his own, and what God wrought through the Lamb.

The ode magnifies God,

Jack

Hi Jack; Do a quick scan of deut 31-33 to see the song of moses.

There is another song if moses which he wrote after the red sea crossing, and that has application also due to how the city is referred to as Egypt in Rev. The followers of christ excaped through the roman armies sometimes, while the judauzers and pursurers were killed by the flood of the romans.

But Chapter 32 is called the song of Moses in ch 31-33.
J

 

[shturt678s]

Hi Jack; Do a quick scan of deut 31-33 to see the song of moses.

There is another song if moses which he wrote after the red sea crossing, and that has application also due to how the city is referred to as Egypt in Rev. The followers of christ excaped through the roman armies sometimes, while the judauzers and pursurers were killed by the flood of the romans.

But Chapter 32 is called the song of Moses in ch 31-33.
J

You got me there, ie, been sinfully negligent not scrutinizing Deut. for years; however the song recorded in Deut.31:30-32:47 is not referred to in Rev.15:3, ie, Rev.15:3, 4 is one song. Also keeping in mind that O.T. passages do not govern any interpretation in the prophecies with the Book of Revelation which you may already be aware, ie, all that Revelation borrows from the O.T. is used in a different way - adaptations.

Grammatically, contextually, and aspectually calling Rev.15:3 the ode of Moses brings to mind only Exodus 15, where Moses praises God for the deliverance from the drowned Egyptians which you are already familiar with. For Deut.31:30-32:47 to be referred to we would have to see two different songs, however in vs. 3, 4 we have only one song. ten wden is a repetition and may convey the conquerors sang two different songs; but again we have only one song grammatically and contextually.

The genitives "of Moses" and "of the Lamb" are objective: dealing with Moses, dealing with the Lamb. To both are ascribed deeds of deliverance, the one being a type of the other my friend.

Humble pie Jack

btw Heb.3:5, 6 similarly combines Moses and Christ.

 

[Notrash]

Grammatically, contextually, and aspectually calling Rev.15:3 the ode of Moses brings to mind only Exodus 15, where Moses praises God for the deliverance from the drowned Egyptians which you are already familiar with. For Deut.31:30-32:47 to be referred to we would have to see two different songs, however in vs. 3, 4 ywe have only one song. ten wden is a repetition and may convey the conquerors sang two different songs; but aga]in we have only one song grammatically and contextually.

btw Heb.3:5, 6 similarly combines Moses and Christ.

Iþwould and doþdisagree as to which song is being referred to. Deut 32 is quoted from @8 times in the Epistles and possibly inferred to by Jesus when calling the Pharisees a brood of vipers (along with Is 59) and an evil generation.

If we include the overlapping chapter of Is 59 it is referred to at least 10 times.

The exodus 'song' can also be pertinent as mentiined above, but these furst century believers were enduring death while defering judgement upon their enemies unto the coming of Gid through the minds of the leaders of their provokers (unbelieving Israels) enemies (the Romans) Rom 12:19

The song if the lamb is the way of love and nin-resistence because they knew the true one and the truth if justifucation by faith in Gods reality, love and incarnatiion. Christ had set the example, how coul their concience allow them any other way.

They sang the song of the Moses because they new that they were people like jacob/Israel (not moses) and of Adam (and new Adam) .and that judgement was promised in their favor.

 

[Notrash]

Grammatically, contextually, and aspectually calling Rev.15:3 the ode of Moses brings to mind only Exodus 15, where Moses praises God for the deliverance from the drowned Egyptians which you are already familiar with. For Deut.31:30-32:47 to be referred to we would have to see two different songs, however in vs. 3, 4 ywe have only one song. ten wden is a repetition and may convey the conquerors sang two different songs; but aga]in we have only one song grammatically and contextually.

btw Heb.3:5, 6 similarly combines Moses and Christ.

I would and do disagree as to which song is being referred to. Deut 32 is quoted from @8 times in the Epistles and possibly inferred to by Jesus when calling the Pharisees a brood of vipers (along with Is 59) and an evil generation.

If we include the overlapping chapter of Is 59 it is referred to at least 10 times.

The exodus 'song' can also be pertinent as mentiined above, but these furst century believers were enduring death while defering judgement upon their enemies unto the coming of Gid through the minds of the leaders of their provokers (unbelieving Israels) enemies (deut 32:42 the Romans) Rom 12:19

The song if the lamb is the way of love and nin-resistence because they knew the true one and the truth if justifucation by faith in Gods reality, love and incarnatiion. Christ had set the example, how coul their concience allow them any other way.

They sang the song of the Moses because they new that they were people like jacob/Israel (not moses) and of Adam (and new Adam) .and that judgement was promised in their favor.

 

[n2thelight]

3 - If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy. The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

All 7 kings are the same person,even the 8th

Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

There were ten kings at first, but this deals with seven different kings. These seven kings have been over their dominions for some time. There is only one king that Christ has given power over all the earth in the past two thousand years, and that king is Satan. These seven kings represent the seven offices that Satan has held, from the "dragon" in the first earth age, "serpent" in the garden, all the way through this age to the Antichrist at the end of this age. There has been five roles that Satan has and is playing to this date, and Satan is our "accuser" before the throne of God today, but in time he will be right here on earth filling the role of Antichrist, which will be for a very short time. Satan's final role starts shortly, very shortly, with Michael casting him out of heaven [Revelation 12:7]. He will have only five months in his final role of this earth age.

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Remember in verse eight, "he" was the one out of the pit. Satan's "eighth" role is when he goes into perdition. Why, "of the seven"? Because he was over the seven, one entity in all seven positions; and now this eighth is his last.
No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.

Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."

These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.

The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

This is the time to have your Spiritual armor on and ready for the battle. There is no "rapture" or escape from this hour of temptation here on earth, but God's armor is sufficient to protect you during this spiritual battle. I am aware that this is the point that deceivers use to draw you in; however, it is the very deception that will lead you to the Antichrist.

Revelation 17:13 "These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

There can be no doubt now who rules over the ten kings, or authorities, or agencies: it is Antichrist, the beast. The nations of the world have no borders, or boundaries. The Euphrates has dried up, and Israel and Babylon are one in mind and accord. These authorities must be similar to the ten agencies that now rule the earth, under the United Nations. These are UNICEF [for the children], the World Bank [economics], the World court [to settle disputes], Red Cross [the world health organization], Relief [starvation], the U.N. forces [military], Space, Environment, and the Beast [universal information and control computer], and Education, as well as the World council of churches.
Anything you can imagine is covered and governed by one of these ten agencies.

Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they [those sealed with the truth in their minds] that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful."

Thank God that you can be living in this generation, and understand what it is all about. This is the generation most of the Bible is written about, for it is the final time of testing of those who fell in the first earth age. If you understand, then God's plan makes sense and no deception can come for you. You know that Satan is the first Christ. He will come with his tricks and deceptions.

These leaders of the world system will make a war, a spiritual war with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] and they will lose in the battle. All who stand on that day are of the "chosen for God", and they will remain faithful.

revelation17

 

[shturt678s]

All 7 kings are the same person,even the 8th

Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

There were ten kings at first, but this deals with seven different kings. These seven kings have been over their dominions for some time. There is only one king that Christ has given power over all the earth in the past two thousand years, and that king is Satan. These seven kings represent the seven offices that Satan has held, from the "dragon" in the first earth age, "serpent" in the garden, all the way through this age to the Antichrist at the end of this age. There has been five roles that Satan has and is playing to this date, and Satan is our "accuser" before the throne of God today, but in time he will be right here on earth filling the role of Antichrist, which will be for a very short time. Satan's final role starts shortly, very shortly, with Michael casting him out of heaven [Revelation 12:7]. He will have only five months in his final role of this earth age.

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Remember in verse eight, "he" was the one out of the pit. Satan's "eighth" role is when he goes into perdition. Why, "of the seven"? Because he was over the seven, one entity in all seven positions; and now this eighth is his last.
No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.

Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."

These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.

The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

This is the time to have your Spiritual armor on and ready for the battle. There is no "rapture" or escape from this hour of temptation here on earth, but God's armor is sufficient to protect you during this spiritual battle. I am aware that this is the point that deceivers use to draw you in; however, it is the very deception that will lead you to the Antichrist.

Revelation 17:13 "These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

There can be no doubt now who rules over the ten kings, or authorities, or agencies: it is Antichrist, the beast. The nations of the world have no borders, or boundaries. The Euphrates has dried up, and Israel and Babylon are one in mind and accord. These authorities must be similar to the ten agencies that now rule the earth, under the United Nations. These are UNICEF [for the children], the World Bank [economics], the World court [to settle disputes], Red Cross [the world health organization], Relief [starvation], the U.N. forces [military], Space, Environment, and the Beast [universal information and control computer], and Education, as well as the World council of churches.
Anything you can imagine is covered and governed by one of these ten agencies.

Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they [those sealed with the truth in their minds] that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful."

Thank God that you can be living in this generation, and understand what it is all about. This is the generation most of the Bible is written about, for it is the final time of testing of those who fell in the first earth age. If you understand, then God's plan makes sense and no deception can come for you. You know that Satan is the first Christ. He will come with his tricks and deceptions.

These leaders of the world system will make a war, a spiritual war with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] and they will lose in the battle. All who stand on that day are of the "chosen for God", and they will remain faithful.

revelation17

Good job, ie, agreeing with a lot, ie, curious? Reference Rev.17:10, who were the "five" that fell?

thank you,

Jack,

btw critical in interpreting

 

[Interplanner]

to n2thelight,
I don't think you realize that the Rev speaks very directly to 1st century situations. You think the whole thing is cosmic, yet there are many indications it is about the catastrophe in Israel ending in 70.

 

[n2thelight]

to n2thelight,
I don't think you realize that the Rev speaks very directly to 1st century situations. You think the whole thing is cosmic, yet there are many indications it is about the catastrophe in Israel ending in 70.

Im one who believes in dual prophecy,so I won't deny that what happened in ad70 was very important,however,that was not the end...


Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ends of the world", means the ends of this earth age, or dispensation where man lives in his flesh body. Paul told us that all those things that were written by the prophets of man's actions, and what happened to them when they either violated God's law, or kept God's law were examples to us, for there is no new thing that will happen to flesh man, that has not already happened to others in the past. We are to study God's Word, and by our understanding of His Word, we can have the peace of mind that comes with God's faithfulness to His Word.

There is nothing new under the sun, even to the point of what happens at the end of this earth age, is a copy of what happened at the end of the first earth age. God has detailed out for us in His Word all events that will take place, right up to His second coming at the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. He has name the signs, and given us examples even of the one world system that is coming upon us now, and will rule the minds of all mankind very shortly, all that is, except God's elect who know the truths, and will not be deceived.

 

[Interplanner]

I don't think either Mt 24A and //s or the Rev are written casually enough to enjoy the luxury of comparing times. They were pretty desparate times. Of course, history does repeat itself.