Why the Rev was written before 70 AD

Bible2 · Feb 3, 2014

ebedmelech said in post 118:

Romans 1:20 starts with creation! I would not call that "natural theology", because there is no theology there.

There is, in the sense that even nature by itself proves God's existence. I.e., people can know that God exists simply by seeing everything else that exists (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-4). The universe couldn't have created itself from nothing by physics, because of the first law of thermodynamics. So something outside of physics had to have created the universe. The term spirit is used to refer to that which exists but is outside of physics. So what created the universe was a spirit (John 4:24, John 1:3). And this has to be an uncreated spirit, because nothing, not even a spirit, can create itself from nothing, for in order to create itself, it would have to already exist. The term divine can be used to refer to a conscious entity which exists but is uncreated. So the uncreated spirit who created the universe would be divine. So just by being able to see the universe, people have no excuse for denying the existence of a divine, uncreated spirit (Romans 1:20, John 4:24, Psalms 19:1-4). And this spirit must have eternal power (Romans 1:20), because the first law of thermodynamics requires that the energy in the universe is eternal.

Because knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20), when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable, choosing to be foolish, regarding God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:21-22, Psalms 14:1). But there is no salvation in simply believing that God exists (James 2:19). Believing in Jesus Christ, the human/divine Son of God, and his sacrifice on the Cross for our sins, and his rising from the dead on the 3rd day, is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven so they can avoid having to go to hell when they die (John 3:16,36, Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

ebedmelech said in post 118:

We know Adam and Eve were eternal beings based on Romans 5:12-14, where death enters the world because of Adam's transgression!

That's right.

Original sin (and so universal human mortality) is because of Adam's sin, and not (as is sometimes claimed) because of angelic sin, i.e. the bringing of angelic DNA into human DNA to create the angel/human hybrids called the nephilim, or giants of Genesis 6.

I.e., Romans 5:19a, and not Genesis 6, is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned, just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10). Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God, for we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b) or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24) without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to saved people (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

shturt678s · Feb 3, 2014

Bible2 said:
There is, in the sense that even nature by itself proves God's existence. I.e., people can know that God exists simply by seeing everything else that exists (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-4). The universe couldn't have created itself from nothing by physics, because of the first law of thermodynamics. So something outside of physics had to have created the universe. The term spirit is used to refer to that which exists but is outside of physics. So what created the universe was a spirit (John 4:24, John 1:3). And this has to be an uncreated spirit, because nothing, not even a spirit, can create itself from nothing, for in order to create itself, it would have to already exist. The term divine can be used to refer to a conscious entity which exists but is uncreated. So the uncreated spirit who created the universe would be divine. So just by being able to see the universe, people have no excuse for denying the existence of a divine, uncreated spirit (Romans 1:20, John 4:24, Psalms 19:1-4). And this spirit must have eternal power (Romans 1:20), because the first law of thermodynamics requires that the energy in the universe is eternal.

Because knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20), when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable, choosing to be foolish, regarding God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:21-22, Psalms 14:1). But there is no salvation in simply believing that God exists (James 2:19). Believing in Jesus Christ, the human/divine Son of God, and his sacrifice on the Cross for our sins, and his rising from the dead on the 3rd day, is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven so they can avoid having to go to hell when they die (John 3:16,36, Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

That's right.

Original sin (and so universal human mortality) is because of Adam's sin, and not (as is sometimes claimed) because of angelic sin, i.e. the bringing of angelic DNA into human DNA to create the angel/human hybrids called the nephilim, or giants of Genesis 6.

I.e., Romans 5:19a, and not Genesis 6, is the doctrine of original sin, which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned, just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10). Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God, for we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b) or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24) without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to saved people (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

If original sin is genetic, could it passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

I think this is the only post where I fully agree to agree.

Old disagreeable Jack

AJCServant · Feb 8, 2014

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial Narrow, sans-serif]Revelation was written during Nero's reign before 70AD[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation was written before 70 AD[/FONT]

A narrative by a “Tentmaker” with the help of friends

[FONT=Arial Narrow, sans-serif]John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him. If ye continue in my word,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial Narrow, sans-serif]then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[/FONT]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

1 - The time statement in Revelation 1:1 refers to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.

2 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman leader-emperors of the Julian dynasty are (1) Julius Caesar, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while, Galba, 6 months who was the seventh.

3 - If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy. The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

4 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about “soon” events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the “soon” future of 96 AD.

5 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find any other person's name in that time frame that would do this!

6 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing, thus proving not necessarily the pre-70 AD writing, but definitely the "at hand" time statements of the book.

7 – Early Syrian versions of the Book of Revelation has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

8 - If in Revelation 11:1 John the Evangelist is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future he is sent to measure, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!!!

9 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

10 - According to the epistles to the churches and Revelation 2:9 & 3:9, there were still Judaizers presenting problems in the churches. This particular issue would be ridiculous after the holocaust of 70 AD and the resulting diaspora of nearly all in Israel except for the less “religious”.

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][Editor's Note: Because any teachings by any fallible man, including this narrative, could unwittingly be flawed, all Christians should be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11, and should ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth, and to discern doctrines that can be judged by their fruitfulness in strengthening Jesus' Kingdom while also encouraging loving-holiness towards God and “all” others. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When the Book of Revelation, (and verse 18:4), was written during Nero's reign it encouraged an exodus from Mystery Babylon prior to its impending destruction(s), similar to Nahum's writings that encouraged believers to flee Nineveh prior to its holocaust by the Babylonians, and similar to Jesus' teachings from The Book of Daniel that encouraged believers to flee Jerusalem prior to its holocaust in 70 AD. During Nero's reign The Book of Revelation encouraged an exodus from both Jerusalem and Rome since they both have seven hills and both had a history of martyring God's prophets. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Today Revelation continues to encourage believers to flee from all Mystery Babylon communities. These are idolatrous non-relational religious communities whose leadership would promote fruit destroying doctrines-of-men, that are materialistic-idolatrous, lascivious, or lustful; or that would teach the opposite of the truth concerning our Father God's immeasurable faith hope love and eternal efforts for “each” and “all” of His prodigal children; until Colossians 1:20 and 1John 3:8 would eventually be fulfilled, when “hopefully” “all” might eventually be reconciled back to His Kingdom in Heaven as a result of the cross of Christ Jesus. (1Peter 3:18-20) (Matthew 19:30, 20:16, Mark 10:31) These Mystery Babylon communities are especially evident when they “martyr” those who attempt to expose doctrines of men and devils for the thievery, death and destruction they cause within our world and to Jesus' Kingdom. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Scripture teaches that Jesus is continually praying throughout His leadership's siftings and chastenings, in order that they would be taught the importance of continually converting and mentoring others to pursue loving-holiness towards “all” while simultaneously resisting all evil, “if” they would pray to remain one of His chosen ambassadors into the eternity ahead of them. Because of the Savior's prayers His mighty angels are continuously fulfilling 2Chronicles 16:9 without any favoritism within any culture or lineage, until “all” of His children would have matured and 1Corinthians 13:8-10 and Revelation 21 would be fulfilled and seen in the earth. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The results of Jesus' prayerful efforts would be that His joint-heirs in each successive generation would have learned from their pruning and sifting and chastening how to fruitfully work in concert with His “sovereign” ruling Holy Spirit in order to bring forth a best-case fulfillment of all apocalyptic “prophetic-scripture”, i.e. a best-case fulfillment of the Greek word katargeō in 1Corinthians 13:8, e.g. katargeō concerning Isaiah 17, Nahum 1:1&15c, Zephaniah 1:2,18c and 2:9. All the while “the-evil-one”, the-Devil Beelzebub, works to bring forth a worst-case fulfillment of all “prophetic-scripture,” by using the blasphemies, slanders, self-righteous bigotries, and Laodicean lethargy that all demonic “doctrines-of-men” continually promote, whenever some wayward teachers have blindly used the Holy scriptures to multiply their sins towards God. As Paul was duped to do prior to his seeing Christ Jesus, and immediately he became a converted-universalist. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 21 reveals that at the end of this age every hardened soul who would have continually refused to receive the Gospel of the Kingdom into their hearts are destined to be left-behind when Jesus' joint-heirs would be evacuated; and these few evil souls would then suffer for ages whenever a near earth nova would again sterilize the earth for a lengthy season. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similarly to how judgment upon Jerusalem and its Church there was able to be minimized via the efforts of Jesus' Church prior to 70AD, what is being accomplished in our generation is again in the hands of Jesus' Holy Church, much more than in the hands of God's Holy Angels who are mighty in power but limited in number.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Because our Father God knows each of His children's fears and weaknesses, let us each pray that the Comforter would encourage God's ambassadors to be courageous and prudent, in order that they would pursue God's Holiness in a way that very soon the gates of hell will not prevail against the assaults by Jesus' Church. Only then would our Father God be glorified to our uttermost, and His ambassadors would have prepared the earth for Jesus' to reveal His New Jerusalem as a Day-Star in the eastern sky amidst the clouds of Heaven, at which time His “mercy will have triumphed over judgments” to the Glory of God the Father. [James 2:13] (Mark 14:62; Habakkuk 2:14) (2Peter 1:4; Revelation 12:11, 21:27)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am re-posting this narrative “again” that I have edited via others efforts with the hope that some who might read it would be like the Bereans, and so these views might improve upon one's previous understandings after prayerfully being considered “in-context” with our Father God's infinite-agape-love concerning “all” of those within His “prodigal” family. And concerning the “sovereign” choices He is continually making amongst all the nations with the help of His heavenly host of powerful angels and joint-heir Saints, in order to continually improve upon His efforts in training up “all” of His “inheritances”, until the end of this earth-age will have occurred with Revelation 21 becoming fulfilled, and then throughout the eternity ahead of us “all” as given in 1Corinthians 15:35-44.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Any helpful wholesome or edifying comments anyone?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
In Jesus love,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21
[/FONT]

shturt678s · Feb 8, 2014

From the English way of looking at it Rev. wrote before 70 A.D.

However from the way John wrote Rev.1:1 thumbs down

The meaning of dei, "must" is the kingdom of hell is bound to rage against the kingdom of Christ where actually began at Rev.11:2 (Lk.21:24) and ends at Rev.20:9, 10. Thus Rev. written after 70 A.D. at 95 A.D.

Old Jack,

Thank you for all that work

Bible2 · Feb 9, 2014

AJCServant said in post 123:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

AJCServant said in post 123:

2 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints.

The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 17:3, Revelation 13:1) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

AJCServant said in post 123:

If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

AJCServant said in post 123:

4 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666.

Is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

AJCServant said in post 123:

5 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666.

Any Revelation manuscript with 616 is incorrect, possibly altered by those who mistakenly thought that Nero had been the Antichrist. The true gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18): Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six" (Against Heresies 5:30:1). This mode of calculation, or method of gematria, is the same in the Greek alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, the English alphabet, and any other alphabet: the first nine letters in the alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.

Bible2 · Feb 9, 2014

AJCServant said in post 123:

6 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later?

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

--

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

AJCServant said in post 123:

8 - If in Revelation 11:1 John the Evangelist is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future he is sent to measure, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!!!

Since John saw his Revelation vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Revelation is about future events (Revelation 1:1), not past events, there was no need to mention the past events of 70 AD.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

--

One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they have already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Bible2 · Feb 9, 2014

AJCServant said in post 123:

9 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

Just as some camps of partial preterism admit that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so such camps should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

AJCServant said in post 123:

9 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

AJCServant said in post 123:

As Paul was duped to do prior to his seeing Christ Jesus, and immediately he became a converted-universalist.

Paul never taught universal salvation, because not everyone will be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14) compared with all of humanity.

(Also, not sure if universalism is even allowed on this forum)

Giantbear · Feb 9, 2014

Revelation was post 70AD because John was exiled to the penal colony on Isle of Patmos.

He also declares the successive line to the Herodean dynasty with five who are fallen, meaning dead and the sixth is. The sixth being King Agrippa II who was taken to Rome to live out his days there.

AJCServant · Feb 13, 2014

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Throughout tooo much of my own past life - similar to what had occurred with Saul of Tarsus - I also was seduced by Calvinistic-thinking and Beelzebub's minions to NOT become “knowledgeable” concerning the subtle seductions of the devil.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So that I also was NOT fruitful in “discerning” good from evil and then choosing the eternally good and fruitful choices that this “discernment” would promote.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And as I have related previously in this website, various doctrines of men similar to the book of Revelation [+] and Daniel being interpreted from a Calvinistic viewpoint caused me to remain visionless for our futures, and fearful in my relations with our Father God in Heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Who I wrongly thought was “whimsical” and “harsh” and “horribly-unjust” to create any human or angelic beings only for them to be “predestined” with infinite-foreknowledge to suffer horribly during this present age, and then after this age they would suffer infinitely more within hell's fires for eternity.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These were the “obviously” demonic-doctrines-of-men that I was taught throughout my Calvinistic upbringing and churchgoing.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For many years my upbringings then led to a fruitless spiritual walk and continual fears and demoralizations. And then health crisis after health crisis due to also being “seduced” and naive concerning the wiles of the devil(s), and what are good nutritional choices and what are NOT fruitful mentoring choices that would promote health, healing and strength. [++][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I see the same seductions happening in soo many others in our world today who are not continually choosing to have an ongoing personal relationship with their Father God in the heavenlies. [+++][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And so I continually pray that everyone's efforts within this thread will become used by Jesus' comforting and enlightening Holy Spirit to set others free as I am being set free, and as the Revelation 12:11
[*] testimonies within the scriptures have been used to set me free concerning the whole truth about the nature and character of our Shekhinah Father God in the heavenlies, and concerning the continual warfare He is waging in behalf of the salvation of the whole world. And about His Kingdom of Heaven that is continually being built up within the earth; our world without end, Amen.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <>< [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+: Revelation 9:18 - - By these three plagues a third . . .][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+++: For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. - - 2 Chronicles 16:9 & John 4:24 - - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. And from Jeremiah 29:13 - - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. With cross references at <>http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=Jeremiah+29%3A13<>][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][*: Revelation 12:11 - - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. . . .][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][++: I would NOW more knowledgeably admonish others that well cooked easily assimilable “pulse” is the best food we have for us all today, especially since manna and the tree-of-life are “apparently” hidden from us within our present world, OR have been removed until more battles are fought for us all to be able to live more “fruitfully” by encouraging each other to live a much much longer and much much stronger life span. Our creator's vision has always been eternal for us all, and a few years of sufferings in our fallen world teaches us much of what we need to know about being seduced to do evil, versus en-encouraging ourselves to escape the corruptions of lustful-pleasures and to instead choose the joys of doing what is fruitful and good. [**]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][**: [/FONT]Matthew 13:15[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AND 2 Peter 1:1-11 (NKJV)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Greeting the Faithful[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fruitful Growth in the Faith[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]add to your faith virtue[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], to virtue [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]knowledge[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], 6 to knowledge [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]self-control[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], to self-control [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]perseverance[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], to perseverance [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]godliness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], 7 to godliness [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]brotherly kindness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and to brotherly kindness [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]love[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]knowledge[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Bible2 said:
Paul never taught universal salvation, because not everyone will be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14) compared with all of humanity.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <>< [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Concerning Paul's teachings, those given below are only a very very few of the many scriptures he wrote after he had been strongly “enlightened” concerning our Father in Heaven's vision for us “all”, that he was apparently taught while he was in the desert for a season immediately prior to beginning his apostolic ministry.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Romans 5 (cf 1 John 2:2) - all justified and made righteous[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Romans 11:32 - all receive mercy[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Cor 5:5 - that the (their) spirit may be saved (eternally)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Cor 15:22 - all made alive in Christ[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Cor 15:27 - all subject to him[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Cor 5:19 - all reconciled[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Eph 1:9-10 - all gathered up in him[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Phil 2:10-11 - all will worship him[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Col 1:20 - all reconciled in Christ[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Tim 2:4 - salvation of all desired[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Tim 2:6 - Christ was ransomed for all[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Tim 4:10 - Christ was savior of all, especially (and therefore not limited to) those who believe[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A FINAL QUESTION FOR ANY “BEREAN” TYPE BELIEVERS WHO MIGHT BE SHOWN THIS POST:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Although “I” have been taught by Jesus' Holy Spirit to never teach anyone at any time that foreordained predestined “universalism” is a doctrine from God, since it is obviously a demonic-doctrine-of-men that would promote an unholiness amongst any who would believe it, [*+] and since all eternal-souls, such as ourselves, will always continually and eternally have a free-will whether to forgive God and others and themselves and to continually accept Jesus as their Lord or not; [*++] yet are there any other scriptures that “Paul” wrote that do NOT imply that God's hope would be for Jesus' Holy Church to promote a universalist-vision towards “all” sinners? That someone would find and list into this thread, so more believers might be taught to rightly-divide those scriptures, and so we might not-be-ashamed on our final-day when we would each see Jesus personally? [*+++] I have yet to find a “single” scripture written by an obviously holy and converting Paul with "limited-ism" being his viewpoint at that time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]See [*+: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 14:20[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] & [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ezekiel 28:18-19[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] ] & [*++: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 18:34-35[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] ][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. I continually pray they all will eventually become eternally fruitful towards everyone who might someday be like the Bereans who would read this thread and would “consider” the truths therein.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A Servant of Jesus Christ[/FONT]

AJCServant · Feb 13, 2014

<><> <><

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A Servant of Jesus Christ[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AJCServant [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

[/FONT][*+++: <>PS There are several key scriptures that continually govern my thoughts, hopes and prayers for this thread, of which some are given below:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Timothy 3:16-17 - - All (Holy) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may become perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Timothy[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 2:15-16 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]a workman that needeth not to be ashamed[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rightly dividing the word of truth.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 16 But [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]shun[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ungodliness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. (KJV) (ESV) 16 But [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]avoid[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ungodliness[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 29:13-14 - - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the (demonic) doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 3:10&18 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]error[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the lawless [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ones [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and fall from your secure position[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPS - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]My fervent prayer are that some would take time to consider becoming a more integral-part in working alongside the heavenly host of highly educated and technological angels that sacrificed for ages to build the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked forward to seeing, and what we “all” might see someday as seen in the attached image to Post [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]#[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]63[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “NewJerusalem ForTheSaints _gif.gif” at <>http://www.christianforums.com/t7756553-7/#post63771233<> and as taught in Revelation 21 and by a Holy (i.e. set-apart-for-service) and faith-filled Paul in Colossians 1:20. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPPS - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As written in the aforementioned gif file, what radically enlightened me to Beelzebub's powerfully enslaving “hatred” towards our Shekhinah Creator's vision for us all, was in the fact that the largest pyramid in the mid-east that has ever been constructed by God's enslaved children was exactly 1.2 Greek Olympic “stadia” on each edge, which is exactly 1/10,000th the dimensions of New Jerusalem in Revelation 21[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. So let us pray for vision wisdom strength and courage and rise up and overcome evil with good as we would proclaim the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ Jesus, and thereby work alongside the Heavenly Host in a much greater way in annihilating the works of the devil in our earth. His Kingdom come His will be done in the earth as it is done in Heaven, Amen, come quickly Lord Jesus.[/FONT][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

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Bible2 · Feb 14, 2014

AJCServant said in post 129:

Romans 5 (cf 1 John 2:2) - all justified and made righteous

In Romans 5:8, "us" refers only to the elect, for God hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-13). Romans 5:8 doesn't contradict double predestination, but is part of it. For God loves the elect not only before they get saved (Romans 11:28), but even before they are born (Romans 9:11-13). The elect were chosen (elected) by God even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). And Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:20) in the sense that God had already determined and so foreknew (Acts 2:23), before the foundation of the world, that every man but Jesus would become a sinner and that he (God the Father) would send Jesus to die in order to make possible the salvation of the elect (Ephesians 1:4-7). But God loving the elect enough to save them even while they were yet sinners (Romans 5:8) doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) require once-saved-always-saved.

Saved people need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21), and to continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22), by continuing in obedience to him (John 15:10, John 14:21,23), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2a) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

The way for believers to expect mercy from God (Jude 1:21b) is for them to repent from all their sins and confess them to God (1 Jn. 1:9). Believers can't expect mercy from God if they commit apostasy (Jude 1:5, Hebrews 6:4-8), or commit unrepentant sin (Jude 1:7-18,23, Hebrews 10:26-29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

AJCServant said in post 129:

Romans 5 (cf 1 John 2:2) - all justified and made righteous

Jesus' divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2). But it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but of only the elect. For Jesus' sheep whom he died to save (John 10:11,14,15) are the elect (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in him (John 10:27) and who will believe in him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to the nonelect, who can't ever believe in him (John 8:42-47), because they aren't his sheep (John 10:26).

AJCServant said in post 129:

Romans 11:32 - all receive mercy

Romans 11:32 means only that all the elect (Romans 11:28) are shown mercy with regard to their initial salvation as individuals (Romans 9:11-24), not that all people will be shown mercy. For some people were created by God to be nonelect vessels of his wrath, who will never be shown mercy (Romans 9:11-22, Proverbs 16:4, Matthew 13:38-42, John 8:42-47).

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Cor 5:5 - that the (their) spirit may be saved (eternally)

The sinful saved person in 1 Corinthians 5 hadn't lost his salvation, for salvation is ultimately lost due to sin only if a saved person refuses to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) until he dies (1 John 5:16) or Jesus returns (Luke 12:45-46). After the sinful saved person in 1 Corinthians 5 was punished by being cast out of the congregation (1 Corinthians 5:13), he repented from his sin while he was still alive, and so he was forgiven and restored to the congregation (2 Corinthians 2:6-10; 1 John 1:9).

Regarding "the destruction of the flesh" in 1 Corinthians 5:5, the original Greek word (olethros, G3639) translated as "destruction" can simply mean punishment. So the "destruction" of the sinful saved person's flesh by Satan can simply mean that God, as a chastening for unrepentance (Revelation 3:19), would allow that person's flesh to temporarily suffer in some way at the hands of Satan (cf. Luke 13:16). It doesn't require that the person be killed by Satan (Job 2:6-7).

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Cor 15:22 - all made alive in Christ

1 Corinthians 15:22 doesn't assure a resurrection to eternal life, because people can be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29, Revelation 20:12-15).

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Cor 15:27 - all subject to him

1 Corinthians 15:27, like Philippians 2:10-11, doesn't say all will be saved. For while all will eventually be made subject to Christ, not all will be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14) compared with all of humanity.

AJCServant said in post 129:

2 Cor 5:19 - all reconciled

2 Corinthians 5:19 doesn't mean everyone in the world, for (again) not everyone will be reconciled to God (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42).

In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include believers, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during his preaching before his arrest.

AJCServant said in post 129:

Eph 1:9-10 - all gathered up in him

Ephesians 1:9-10 refers only to the ultimate gathering together of all things which will be "in Christ", not things which won't be in Christ (e.g. Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42).

AJCServant said in post 129:

Phil 2:10-11 - all will worship him

See 1 Corinthians 15:27 above.

AJCServant said in post 129:

Col 1:20 - all reconciled in Christ

In Colossians 1:20, the original Greek word (pas, G3956) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). Jesus has reconciled all manner of people to himself (Revelation 5:9b), but not absolutely all people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). For reconciliation requires faith (John 3:36, Romans 3:25-26), and not all people have faith (2 Thessalonians 3:2). Also, only the elect are given God's miraculous gift of faith (Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65). Nonelect people and angels will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone to suffer God's wrath forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Tim 2:4 - salvation of all desired

1 Timothy 2:4,6, like 1 Timothy 4:10b, means that God will have all manner of people believe in Jesus and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during his first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. (Again) the original Greek word (pas, G3956) translated as "all" can simply mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It doesn't have to mean absolutely all.

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Tim 2:6 - Christ was ransomed for all

See 1 Timothy 2:4 above

AJCServant said in post 129:

1 Tim 4:10 - Christ was savior of all, especially (and therefore not limited to) those who believe

See 1 Timothy 2:4 above

AJCServant · Feb 15, 2014

Bible2 said:
For reconciliation requires faith (John 3:36, Romans 3:25-26), and not all people have faith (2 Thessalonians 3:2).
Also, only the elect are given God's miraculous gift of faith (Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65).

Nonelect people and angels will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone to suffer God's wrath forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]B2[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As I mentioned in my Post #[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]123[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] I would admonish you to beware of continually being within any groups who would promote within others [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2Thes 3:2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], because these teach others to not empathize with Jesus' continual prayers concerning the warfare that surrounds us all between courageously choosing to do good versus condoning evil (see [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leviticus 19:18[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]) in spite of one's [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]accurate understandings[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] concerning our Father God or the Trinity, (see Romans 2:11) and so like what occurred in 70AD their sin-hardened hearts are being allowed to fulfill [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2Peter 3:16[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and then also [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 3:12[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<>[/FONT]

Also I pray that this scripture is occurring for your eternal profit, Luke 22:31 NIV, along with my hopes that Luke 22:32 ESV would be the end result for your profit, as you would be willing to be trained to work alongside what I would call the marine corps of the Heavenly Host (i.e. Semper Fi - so that no one will be left behind) to experientialy understand Ephesians 6:12 and to then accomplish James 1:2 with the end result being 1John 3:8b for the sake of Jesus and all of His inheritances as prayed for by Jesus in Matthew 6:10.<>

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]B2, [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Several seasons ago I had been where you seem to be now with your proof-texts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Somewhat of a relatively fruitless tribulating and painful but enlightening time in my life whenever I finally began to make better choices towards converting "daily" "again".[/FONT]
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"Perhaps" we all must go through that difficult transition period if we are to be more eternally fruitful.
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I will pray that you will continually fulfill 2Peter 3:18 and to become much more eternally fruitful towards building up Jesus' inheritances as encouraged in John 15:8 throughout the lengthy future ahead of you.[/FONT]
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I pray we may commune better with more faith and vision between us both in the seasons ahead.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Shalom in Jesus,
In Jesus Love,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From a servant of Christ Jesus[/FONT]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?[/FONT][/FONT]

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AJCServant · Feb 17, 2014

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Bible2 said:
Paul never taught universal salvation, because not everyone will be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14) compared with all of humanity.

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Without the Holy Spirit's guidance the above noted verses in “The Book of Matthew” and also some within the other three gospels would “appear” to be “contrary” to Paul's writings given previously and again posted below. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Whereby our present generation's most legalistic-literalist theologians have attributed all of the gospel writings to have been the “exact” words of the Savior when the anointed Christ spoke them during His earthly ministry.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To compare the “obviousness” of Paul's writings with the words attributed to Jesus I have again listed below a fairly extensive list of Paul's “universalist” writings that I have edited using the King James Version Bible.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The number of verses that “offer” a welcoming universalist entreaty towards “any” disparaged “prodigal” for them to seek to be “reconciled” with God and “all” others is impressive.
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Romans 5 - - 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Compare the “tone” of the previous verses by a holy Paul to the “tone” of the following verses written by the holy John and Peter:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][cf 1 John 2:2 - - And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. AND 2 Peter 3:9 - - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Romans 11:32 - - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 5:5 - - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 15:22 - - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 15:27 - - For He hath put all things under his feet.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Corinthians 5:19 - - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the whole world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 1:10 - - That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Philippians 2:10-11 - - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Colossians 1:20 - - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Timothy 2:4 - - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Timothy 2:6 - - Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Timothy 4:10 - - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And compare Paul's writings to the Ephesians with Peter's writings that are both given as follows:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 4:8 - - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Peter 3:18-22 - - 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but “quickened” by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In my own literalist writer-editor's viewpoint - the above scriptures were written to encourage an open-door of the “potential” for universal-salvation towards “all” those who may need some hope in their daily battles within their flesh, which for “all” of us are battles against Beelzebub's many many seductions, oppressions, depressions and possessions. Scripture teaches for us “all” to resist the devil and he will flee.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So I post again below the question that I posted earlier so that some would post their own research concerning “any” of Paul's writings that would similarly-obviously promote a “limited” salvation message towards any of Jesus' lost “sheep” who are also His Father's prodigal “children”.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Although “I” have been taught by Jesus' Holy Spirit to never teach anyone at any time that foreordained predestined “universalism” is a doctrine from God, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]since it is obviously a demonic-doctrine-of-men that would promote an unholiness amongst any who would believe it[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], [*+] and since all the eternal-spirits, such as ourselves, will always continually and eternally have a free-will whether to forgive God and others and themselves and to then accept Jesus as their Lord or not; [*++] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]yet are there any other scriptures that “Paul” wrote that do NOT imply that God's hope would be for His Church to promote a universalist-vision towards “all” sinners?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][*+: Isaiah 14:20 & Ezekiel 28:18-19 ] [*++: Matthew 18:34-35 ][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. I continually pray they all will eventually become eternally fruitful towards everyone who might someday be like the Bereans who would read this thread and would “consider” the truths therein.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
A Servant of Jesus Christ
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AJCServant
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10&15&17 & Revelation 21[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?[/FONT]

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Bible2 · Feb 17, 2014

AJCServant said in post 133:

2 Peter 3:9 - - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9b means God isn't willing any of the elect perish, but that all the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing that the nonelect perish, for he purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and God gives it only to the elect. For God isn't willing that the nonelect repent (see the last section of post 120).

AJCServant said in post 133:

Ephesians 4:8 - - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

1 Peter 3:18-22 - - 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but “quickened” by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Those verses relate to how all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

AJCServant · Feb 17, 2014

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It is apparent that whenever anyone struggles with the simplicity of our Creator's “infinite” agape-love for “all” of His fallen “prodigals”, who were created in this seductive world when it was on the verge of becoming forcibly ruled over by the devil-god of this world “prior” to his seducing or possessing Eve and then Adam and then Cain to sin, and the truth that His love “should” imply towards one's view of the “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]percentage[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” of who will eventually be within the Calvinist view of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]foreordained[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] predestined[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]elect[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]”, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]is “always” subject to how much faith-that-works-by-love [+] one has “aspired” to obtain at the feet of our Creator Father[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [+: Galatians 5:6][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Who He continually humbles the proud and exalts the lowly so that He is “continually” being glorified from the fruitfulness of the works of His hands, while He is eternally working with us “all” without favoritism from the “quickened” invisible spirit realm (i.e. “faster” than the speed of light since light would be visible).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Where-from our Creator Father is continually “obviously” working through His Holy Spirit to convict His many prodigals of their sins “whenever” they would hear the good-news-gospel message from a “loving” evangelist. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And by His very nature and eternal changeless character He “is” “all” the faith, hope and love that empowered the Heavenly Host to begin His work of creating this present world from ages ago in the eternity past, and who is continually working with us "all" in the present world, and will continue to work with us "all" into our future eternity as an eternal spirit. Because we do not fight with flesh and blood but with lawless spirits in a “quickened” spiritual realm, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]this is why the crux of entering into and remaining within the Kingdom of God has always been based upon two simple choices, (1) “continual” daily forgiveness and (2) “continual” daily Lordship as given in the scriptures below. [++][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][++: Matthew 18:34-35 - - 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his neighbor their trespasses.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leviticus 19:18 - - 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 5:43-48 - - 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect (mature), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.<><][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]With the end result being the scriptures given below. [+++][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+++: M[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]atthew 20:12&16[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]12 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and you have made them equal to us[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]for many be “called[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]”, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]but few “chosen[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]”.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Corinthians 5:18-20 - - 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 28:19-20 - - 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]all[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- - Colossians 1:20 <><[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As mentioned previously the intent of this thread is to stand against demonic-doctrines-of-men that confuse or disparage a prodigal, and to promote doctrines that would encourage reconciliation and becoming holy to our Father God who infinitely-loves His prodigal children in spite of their ongoing struggles and past errs in their flesh.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again, as I posted earlier my view is:[/FONT][/FONT]

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AJCServant said:
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The results of Jesus' prayerful efforts would be that His joint-heirs in each successive generation would have learned from their pruning and sifting and chastening how to [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]fruitfully[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] work in concert with His “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]sovereign[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ruling Holy Spirit in order to bring forth a best-case fulfillment of all apocalyptic “prophetic-scripture”, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]i.e. a best-case fulfillment of the Greek word katargeō[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in 1Corinthians 13:8, e.g. katargeō concerning Isaiah 17, Nahum 1:1&15c, Zephaniah 1:2,18c and 2:9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All the while [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]“the-evil-one”, the-Devil Beelzebub[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], works to bring forth a worst-case fulfillment of all “prophetic-scripture[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif],” by using the blasphemies, slanders, self-righteous bigotries, and Laodicean lethargy that all demonic “doctrines-of-men” continually promote, whenever some wayward teachers have blindly used the Holy scriptures to multiply their sins towards God.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] <>< As Paul was duped to do prior to his seeing Christ Jesus, and immediately he became a converted-universalist.<>< [/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]With this being said concerning the battles we "all" must fight IF we are to become eternally fruitful in building up Jesus' inheritances in this life, see [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Luke 9:55, [/FONT][/FONT]let us take time to perform a thoughtful study of what has been posted previously via these threads. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I pray these will eventually become threads in a tapestry of faith for those whose hearts have been prepared for service and whose hearts are not “hardened” by their sin of unbelief.
[*]

[*: Hebrews 3:12]
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We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. I continually pray they all will eventually become eternally fruitful towards everyone who might someday be like the Bereans who would read this thread and would “consider” the truths therein.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
A Servant of Jesus
Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AJCServant
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10&15&17 & Revelation 21
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?[/FONT]

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AJCServant · Feb 17, 2014

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I was limited on my last post to 15,000 so after the excerpt I re-posted below I have also posted its scriptures - for the sake of any Berean type disciples who might ever read this thread to “prayerfully” consider them. [/FONT][/FONT]

Bible2 said:
<>Ephesians 4:8 & 1Peter 3:18-22<>

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Those verses relate to how all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).[/FONT][/FONT]

Underlining is edited.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The question I had asked others at one time in the past was: since Moses and Elijah were two “obedient believers” who had died "[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]in faith[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]" prior to the cross, since they appeared with Jesus on the Mount-of-Transfiguration and so they were obviously already being tasked from the throne room of God;
[*] WHY did Jesus need to make special efforts immediately after the crucifixion to minister to “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]obedient believers[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]”[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]who had died "in faith" "prior to the cross" and were in[/FONT][/FONT] “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the lower parts of the earth[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” and[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] appeared to also have been [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]“[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]spirits in prison[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” who after which Jesus [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"led captivity captive[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and gave gifts unto men"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]?[/FONT][/FONT]

Hmm

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][*: See Matthew 27:53 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 11:13-16 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]for he hath prepared for them a city[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 12:22-24 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and unto the city[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the living God, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the heavenly Jerusalem[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 4:4-6 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Peter 4:6 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 6 For for this cause was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the gospel preached[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] also [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]to them that are dead[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]but live according to God in the spirit[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Peter 3:18-19 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]quickened[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]preached[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] unto the spirits in prison[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif];[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 4:9 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [given below]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 4:8-9 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]he led captivity captive[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]into the lower parts of the earth??[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 11:13-16 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [given above][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 12:22-24 - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [given above][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When I minister to anyone, I am always ministering to men AND also to/for Holy Angels OR the Holy Spirit OR eternal spirits, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and so does any other “minister[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” who might preach and mentor the good-news-gospel message to anyone. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We need to teach "the-gospel" wisely lest we would be "ashamed" on our final day as an “example” to others of the consequences of unbelief, or a hardened heart towards God and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]then also towards others[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Holy Spirit and the Holy Angels have a very very difficult job amongst ~7 billion prodigals and children of God.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]More of us “ministers” need to empathize with God's plights of continually being grieved by us “all” while His Heavenly Host works tirelessly without favoritism to either (1) reconcile or (2) to chain up [**] all the lawless spirits and evil doers in our world until their “final” day of judgment when the next near earth nova will occur. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][**: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Luke 9:55 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] & [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2Peter 2:4[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - - Putting them in chains . . . & [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jude 1:6[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - - Bound with everlasting chains . . . [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. I continually pray they all will eventually become eternally fruitful towards everyone who might someday be like the Bereans who would read this thread and would “consider” the truths therein.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A Servant of Christ Jesus[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AJCServant [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10&15&17 & Revelation 21[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PS - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]My fervent prayer are that some would take time to consider becoming a more integral-part in working alongside the heavenly host of highly educated and technological angels that sacrificed for ages to build the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked forward to seeing, and what we “all” might see someday as seen in the attached image to Post [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]#[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]63<[click][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “NewJerusalem ForTheSaints _gif.gif” and as taught in Revelation 21 and by a Holy (i.e. set-apart-for-service) and faith-filled Paul in Colossians 1:20.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPS - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As written in the aforementioned gif file, what radically enlightened me to Beelzebub's powerfully enslaving “hatred” towards our Shekhinah Creator's vision for us all, was in the fact that the tallest pyramid that has ever been constructed by God's enslaved children was exactly 1.2 Greek Olympic “stadia” on each edge, which is exactly 1/10,000th the dimensions of New Jerusalem in Revelation 21[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. So let us pray for vision wisdom strength and courage and rise up and overcome evil with good as we would proclaim the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ Jesus, and thereby work alongside the Heavenly Host in a much greater way in annihilating the works of the devil in our earth. His Kingdom come His will be done in the earth as it is done in Heaven, Amen, come quickly Lord Jesus.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPPS - - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT][/FONT]

Bible2 · Feb 19, 2014

AJCServant said in post 135:

Matthew 5:43-48 - - 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect (mature), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:44-48 doesn't mean God loves all his enemies, for he hates his nonelect enemies (Romans 9:11-13).

It's not hypocritical for God to tell us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44) while he hates his nonelect enemies (Romans 9:11-13). For just as God as Creator has the right to create some people to be nonelect vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22) and other people to be elect vessels of his mercy (Romans 9:23), so God as Creator has the right to hate the nonelect and love the elect (Romans 9:11-13). But as mere creatures, Christians have no right to hate anyone, especially in light of God's love for Christians even while they were yet his enemies (Romans 5:8-10).

God doesn't necessarily hate our enemies, for our enemies could be his beloved elect (Romans 11:28). Even the elect start out as God's enemies (Colossians 1:21).

AJCServant said in post 135:

Matthew 28:19-20 - - 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

While the gospel of salvation is preached to everyone (Mark 16:15), nonelect people can't be saved, for they can't believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47, John 10:26).

*******

AJCServant said in post 136:

The question I had asked others at one time in the past was: since Moses and Elijah were two “obedient believers” who had died "in faith" prior to the cross, since they appeared with Jesus on the Mount-of-Transfiguration and so they were obviously already being tasked from the throne room of God; [*] WHY did Jesus need to make special efforts immediately after the crucifixion to minister to “obedient believers”who had died "in faith" "prior to the cross" and were in “the lower parts of the earth” and appeared to also have been “spirits in prison” who after which Jesus "led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men"?

Moses and Elijah were special cases.

Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

AJCServant said in post 136:

See Matthew 27:53 - - And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The original Greek word (egeiro, G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 bodily resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits bodily resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future bodily resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the bodily resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

AJCServant · Feb 20, 2014

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hi all,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I had previously posted the following excerpt and scripture into another thread, and now here for good-hearted-souls to consider the many scriptural admonition's concerning how the ruthless and lawless Beelzebub has oftentimes seduced some to fulfill 2 Peter 3:16[/FONT].

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A strong delusion occurs whenever ones “heart” is far removed from mentoring others with God's love, and His life strengthening prudence.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 29:13-14 - - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the (demonic) doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.[/FONT]

Isaiah 29 ESV - The Siege of Jerusalem

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The previous scripture above, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 29:13-14[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], was most [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]obviously[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] fulfilled in 70AD whenever the Jews were celebrating their “mandatory” feast days at Jerusalem “while” being surrounded by the Roman army.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Jewish Nation's “corporate” blindness that led to 70AD historically took root after the Babylonian Captivity whenever some “religious” “legalistic” scribes were “allowed” to use various scriptures as their authoritative proof-texts without others effectively voicing themselves concerning how the character and nature of God was being portrayed via those proof-texts. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Our Heavenly Father had obviously “allowed” these wayward texts to be published as “tares” within the scriptures - simply to train His leaders-in-training, like Job again became, to learn to discern eternally holy doctrines that would promote God's holiness and love and vision for “all” of ones “neighbors” [+] from “demonic-doctrines-of-men” that do not.
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And for His leaders-in-training, like Job again became, to then learn how to work in concert with His Holy Spirit to “reprove” any slanders that promoted the opposite of the truth about His unchanging and eternal vision, nature and character. [Two scriptural examples of “non-believing” religious leaders who were being “trained” in God's ways of “discernment” were the scribe in [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Mark 12:28-34[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and Gamaleial in [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Acts 5:34-39.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+: To investigate how Jesus' definition of one's “neighbor” was contrary to a “religious” scribe's viewpoint see via this link to> - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Luke 10:29[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][*: The most “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]obvious[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]example of a “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]demonic-doctrine-of-men[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” inserted into the Torah is> - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Numbers 15:30-36[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]whereby the words used for “cut-off” should never have implied executing anyone by pelting them to death with stones[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], since these were the words used to “admonish” the “faithful” non-idolaters to separate themselves from any persons who “blatantly” chose to be “idolatrous” and or to pursue “self-destructive” “heathen” practices; as Moses “admonished” in> - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leviticus 19:17[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and as Jesus “admonished” in> - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 18:17[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and afterwards the Apostle Paul again repeated these same “admonitions” via his writings in> - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 5:11[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Whenever we look at the maturing process within the lives and writings of Paul and Peter, we see that our loving Creator was continually without favoritism gently pruning, sifting, chastening and encouraging them until their final day. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One can easily see Paul's maturing process within the following review of his writings.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Dates given below were obtained from the ESV Study Bible Notes.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD57 – Romans 5 (cf 1John 2:2) - all justified and made righteous[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD57 – Romans 11:32 - all receive mercy[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD54 – 1Cor 5:5 – destruction of their demon possessed flesh -[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- so their spirit may be saved [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]eternally[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD54 – 1Cor 15:22 - all made alive in Christ[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD54 – 1Cor 15:27 - all subject to him[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD55 – 2Cor 5:19 - all reconciled[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD62 – Eph 1:9-10 - all gathered up in him[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD62 – Phil 2:10-11 - all will worship him[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD62 – Col 1:20 - all reconciled in Christ[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD64 – 1Tim 2:4 - salvation of all desired[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD64 – 1Tim 2:6 - Christ was ransomed for all[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD64 – 1Tim 4:10 - Christ was savior of all - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]-[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]especially (and therefore not limited to) those who believe[/FONT]

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AJCServant · Feb 20, 2014

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Paul was less “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]mature[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” in his writings he wrote as is noted in this link to>- - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Galatians 5:12[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in ~AD48 that he had wished that any “Judaizers” who taught that the circumcision of one's flesh was necessary to obtain salvation in Jesus, would further “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]castrate[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” themselves[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As Paul[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]matured[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]” beyond his earlier writings such as [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Galatians 5:12[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in ~AD48 [/FONT]he then cogently discussed the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]chastening[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the Lord in his writings below, that obviously helped him in his “maturing” process, even though from his further writings his personality obviously continued to be a fiery-one on various occasions.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD54 – 1Corinthians 9:27 - - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD54 – 1Corinthians 11:32 - - But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD55 – 2Corinthians 6:9 - - As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]~AD55 – [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Corinthians 12:7 - - OR - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Corinthians 12:7-9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 7 Or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited (arrogant-prideful), I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Satan[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], to torment me. 8 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Three times[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Now let us consider the next excerpt statement from the previous Post #137 in light of the “obviousness” of our Shekhinah Father Creator's eternal-purity and infinite-love and patience towards His prodigal children, - -[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]{whose infinite love in past ages has encouraged the heavenly host of angels to build the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked forward to seeing, and what we “all” might see someday as seen in the image “NewJerusalem ForTheSaints _gif.gif” that is attached within another thread at this link to>- Post #63 @ <>http:// www. christianforums. com/ t7756553-7/#post63771233<>} - - [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]VERSUS the “obviousness” of Beelzebub's cruel hatred to seduce or possess some to become perverse in order to cause their waywardness to kill themselves after a “horrible” time of “suffering”. This is what occurred with his prodigal “chosen” people in 70AD, and in our modern day also occurs with many sufferings for sexually-promiscuous-prodigals, and similar sufferings occurred more rampantly in ancient times throughout other “idolatrous” cultures who had never been taught the "wisdom" of their Creator's laws and ways and vision for us "all".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So that whenever someone or an entire culture becomes obliviously demonically-trained or possibly “totally-possesed”, then their Father God's infinite mercy is seen in Paul's teaching in - - 1Corinthians 5:5 - - that encourages - - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be (eternally) saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So that because of the destruction of their flesh the following scriptures might then also be fulfilled for the sake of these persons and all others who they could have mentored with their “errs”.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][Luke 9:55 - - But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. & 2Peter 2:4 - - Putting them in chains . . . & Jude 1:6 - - Bound with everlasting chains.][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]NOW let us consider the next excerpted statement from the previous Post #137 that is likely identical as to how most Calvinistic theology would teach about our eternal Heavenly Father's vision for His “eternal” creations.[/FONT]

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Bible2 said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 5:44-48[+++] doesn't mean God loves all his enemies, for he hates his nonelect enemies (Romans 9:11-13[+]).

It's not hypocritical for God to tell us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44[+++]) while he hates his nonelect enemies (Romans 9:11-13[+]). For just as God as Creator has the right to create some people to be nonelect vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22[++]) and other people to be elect vessels of his mercy (Romans 9:23[++]), so God as Creator has the right to hate the nonelect and love the elect (Romans 9:11-13[+]). [/FONT][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Romans 9:11-13[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]11 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][++: Romans 9:20-23 - - 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+++: Click-Link to Matthew 5:44-48][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Note the three scriptures [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]that [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]have been posted after the excerpt given above, whereby we all need to again “remind” ourselves of Peter's cogent admonitions in order to [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]NOT[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] allow our efforts to fulfill 2 Peter 3:16 as some others have "oftentimes" been seduced to [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]stray[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] who have come before us.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][Luke 9:55 - - But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. & 2Peter 2:4 - - Putting them in chains . . . & Jude 1:6 - - Bound with everlasting chains.]

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AJCServant · Feb 20, 2014

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ultimately “all” of our “battles” against others in this life are never truly fought with flesh and blood. And we are all placed into this world for a few years time to be trained to discern this fact, and to learn how to resist evils and bigotries and arrogance throughout our lives and then into the eternity ahead of us all.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So the hope of this editor is that more Christians would be taught to resist the same demonic-evil-spirits of Beelzebub that possessed John Calvin in Geneva when he had Michael Servetus burnt at the stake for disagreeing with his demonically inspired doctrines.

See <>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus <> [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ultimately we all need to “continually” become taught how we might prudently accomplish the Golden-Rule of [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leviticus 19:18[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] towards “all” of our “neighbors”, [+] even if during the warfare that surrounds us all our noble righteous efforts of striving to be like a Berean-Gideon would someday cause us to be murdered because of our attempts to build-up Jesus' inheritances throughout the earth. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+: For Jesus' definition of one's “neighbor” that was contrary to the many scribe's viewpoints in His day see: >- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Luke 10:29[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all being “sifted” in “each” generation and will either rise to the challenges or will fall away with the chaff since our God does not have an infinite number of Semper-Fi angels to continually protect and chasten-train us all when so many are unforgiving towards others “errs”, hard-hearted towards God, and therefore stiff-necked and hard-hearted towards the sacrificial efforts of His light- speed Holy Spirit to war against Beelzebub's minions in our behalf.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all in training to be a little more like Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Again, thank you everyone for your posts and prayers. I continually pray they all will eventually become eternally fruitful towards everyone who might someday be like the Bereans who would read this thread and would “consider” the truths therein.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Shalom in Jesus,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A Servant of Christ Jesus[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AJCServant [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

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[/FONT] "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot the missionary.

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PS - - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT][/FONT]

Why the Rev was written before 70 AD

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