Why the Rev was written before 70 AD

[shturt678s]

Im one who believes in dual prophecy,so I won't deny that what happened in ad70 was very important,however,that was not the end...


Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ends of the world", means the ends of this earth age, or dispensation where man lives in his flesh body. Paul told us that all those things that were written by the prophets of man's actions, and what happened to them when they either violated God's law, or kept God's law were examples to us, for there is no new thing that will happen to flesh man, that has not already happened to others in the past. We are to study God's Word, and by our understanding of His Word, we can have the peace of mind that comes with God's faithfulness to His Word.

There is nothing new under the sun, even to the point of what happens at the end of this earth age, is a copy of what happened at the end of the first earth age. God has detailed out for us in His Word all events that will take place, right up to His second coming at the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. He has name the signs, and given us examples even of the one world system that is coming upon us now, and will rule the minds of all mankind very shortly, all that is,

except God's elect who know the truths, and will not be deceived.

Unless you agape the Truth in the 5th and 6th Trumpets now (IIThess.2:10b), and measured now (Rev.11:1), then you're just another of the unknowingly deceived on the planet, ie, not one of the "elect" for sure - example only! However a Christian for sure "outwardly" (Matt.20 & 22).

Hopefully I'm wrong, and it's only a question of which glory you will be in heaven?

Jack

 

[Notrash]

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ends of the world", means the ends of this earth age, or dispensation where man lives in his flesh body. Paul told us that all those things that were written by the prophets of man's actions, and what happened to them when they either violated God's law, or kept God's law were examples to us, for there is no new thing that will happen to flesh man, that has not already happened to others in the past. We are to study God's Word, and by our understanding of His Word, we can have the peace of mind that comes with God's faithfulness to His Word.

There is nothing new under the sun, even to the point of what happens at the end of this earth age, is a copy of what happened at the end of the first earth age. God has detailed out for us in His Word all events that will take place, right up to His second coming at the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. He has name the signs, and given us examples even of the one world system that is coming upon us now, and will rule the minds of all mankind very s

Ends of the world doesn't mean "END" of the world. It means foundational principles. They were being revealed to that age and remain in effect.

The rest of your dual prophecy substantiation is baseless. Solomon isnt advocating that histiry and prophecy repeats itself. Read it in context!!

I know of no mandate that states that the end of the mosaic civt was a foretype for a judgement on the creation called GOOD by its creator.

 

[Interplanner]

Notrash,
the only other meaning of 'telos' is purpose or objective. The term is never used in a sense where you would say it is about foundations. If you were building an aqueduct, the 'telos' would be the piping/half pipe on the very top. It would not be the blocking that supported columns for the structure at the bottom.

I Cor 9 is only a short distance from I Cor 7:31 where he also said the ending of this world was due. Heb 9:26 uses an enhanced form of our term here 'sunteleia' and perhaps that is why the TEV has the sweeping 'when all ages of time are nearing the end.' But many terms from Dan 9 are 'sprinkled' through this part of Hebrews (no pun intended with priestly sprinkling) and I think there is a good case why Heb 9 means the ages or weeks or periods of Dan 9.

 

[shturt678s]

ICor.10:11, "...to us upon whom the ends of the ages have come." Paul's comprehensive world view is againin evidence in the relative clause: us "upon whom the end of the ages have come." Instead of the abstract "completion" of the eons, Paul writes more concretely "the ends of the eons. These "ages" or eons are all of the preceding eras since time began. All of them focus on the age of Paul and the Corinthians. The end of each preceding era points to the final of the Christian era.

Focusing,

Jack

 

[Interplanner]

unless those ages are those of Dan 9.

 

[Interplanner]

'aions' can be times/periods/"weeks"/ages

 

[Notrash]

Notrash,
the only other meaning of 'telos' is purpose or objective. The term is never used in a sense where you would say it is about foundations. If you were building an aqueduct, the 'telos' would be the piping/half pipe on the very top. It would not be the blocking that supported columns for the structure at the bottom.

I Cor 9 is only a short distance from I Cor 7:31 where he also said the ending of this world was due. Heb 9:26 uses an enhanced form of our term here 'sunteleia' and perhaps that is why the TEV has the sweeping 'when all ages of time are nearing the end.' But many terms from Dan 9 are 'sprinkled' through this part of Hebrews (no pun intended with priestly sprinkling) and I think there is a good case why Heb 9 means the ages or weeks or periods of Dan 9.

Purpose or objective can be (is) a synonym of foundation(s).

I don't see a connection between "ages" and the sections of weeks of Daniels prophecy. I see "ages as referring to the various covanental periods, with everything prior to the ciming of God/Christ being erased, atoned for and given reason and purpose through hus coming

 

[Interplanner]

Look at translation notes of Dan 9. The term is weeks/units/periods/times/ages/sevens. We today tend to think Judaism forgot this or couldn't do math! Instead, we should be looking for it in NT passages. Caiaphas concern about saving Israel from destruction in Jn 11 and 18 is one. I Cor 9 about the end of the ages is another. Heb 9 has terms from Dan 9 nearby, as though it was on the subconscious of the writer...

Don't say that about 'telos' without exact examples in Greek. Paul used the term foundation 'themelion' nearby in 3:10, 11, not 'telos.'

 

[Notrash]

Look at translation notes of Dan 9. The term is weeks/units/periods/times/ages/sevens. We today tend to think Judaism forgot this or couldn't do math! Instead, we should be looking for it in NT passages. Caiaphas concern about saving Israel from destruction in Jn 11 and 18 is one. I Cor 9 about the end of the ages is another. Heb 9 has terms from Dan 9 nearby, as though it was on the subconscious of the writer...

Don't say that about 'telos' without exact examples in Greek. Paul used the term foundation 'themelion' nearby in 3:10, 11,_ not 'telos.'

Both the end purposes of the weeks and the end purposes of the previous ages had cime upon that generatuon. In my personal understanding, the 70 weeks were already fulfilled, by @ 33 AD but the effects of those weeks were still to be caused through those who embodied and held to Christs truths and
Using your own example of distinguishing foundation from telos, could not Paul have
used the word fir 'weeks' if he had intended to indicate that the 'ends' of the ends of daniels weeks had come upon those people and that generation.?

Think love and Goodness, (from the foundatiin) and we'll undeestand it. (the foundatiinal purposes and Good will)



x

 

[Interplanner]

Greek did not usually carry Semitisms on into its expressions. Usually it switched it to something the general Mediterranean population would know. "Weeks" is a Semitism for a 7 year period, if you are reading prophetic materials. The closest Greek would get would be a seven, but if you really mean many time periods, why use the term "seven"? So the 'end of the ages' is as close as the Greek gets.

Did you say 'could Paul not have...'? I thought he just did use it, and did mean they were completed. He does say in 1 Thess that the wrath of God had come on Israel fully; if he wasn't immersed in Dan 9 when he said that, he must have had some other inside knowledge that Israel was going to be swept.

 

[Notrash]

Greek did not usually carry Semitisms on into its expressions. Usually it switched it to something the general Mediterranean population would know. "Weeks" is a Semitism for a 7 year period, if you are reading prophetic materials. The closest Greek would get would be a seven, but if you really mean many time periods, why use the term "seven"? So the 'end of the ages' is as close as the Greek gets.

Did you say 'could Paul not have...'? I thought he just did use it, and did mean they were completed. He does say in 1 Thess that the wrath of God had come on Israel fully; if he wasn't immersed in Dan 9 when he said that, he must have had some other inside knowledge that Israel was going to be swept.

Greek has a word for weeks. This discussion us going in circles. In 1 cor 10:11 end is in plural. That's where I get the idea of purposes or objectives. Secondly, the end of the mosaic covt is in view from the context of the chapter. Tgat end had been prophecied in its beginning, not just from Daniels 70 weeks. Since ages is also in plural, I consider him to be referring to the ages since the world began (heb 9:26), including and perhaps focusing on the mosaic covt age.

I'll put it in the back burner for future consideratiion. Thus is getting off the topic of the date of the writing of the Revelation.

x

 

[Interplanner]

ahh, but if he used that expression regularly, and John's Rev is about those catastsrophic events, he would have been refering to the last of the 'aions'/periods/times

 

[Notrash]

ahh, but if he used that expression regularly, and John's Rev is about those catastsrophic events, he would have been refering to the last of the 'aions'/periods/times

Again, it goes in circles. As mentiined, I view the 70 weeks completed by 33 AD.

 

[Interplanner]

What 'war will continue to the end' is meant by your 33 AD deadline? What happened to the "rebellion that desolates" and its leader from ch 8, or did Daniel make no connection whatsoever between ch 8 and ch 9? Doesn't 445 BC plus 490 put you at 38 AD +/- a few depending on how year 0 is set?

 

[riverrat]

Notrash: If you have a discussion with interplanner it will always end up in a circle!

 

[shturt678s]

Again, it goes in circles. As mentiined, I view the 70 weeks completed by 33 AD.

Fast forward the fulfilment of Dan.9:24b at Rev.21:22, 23 at the "1" Parousia a couple thousand years forward from 33 A.D., ie, more of a math issue,

Jack

 

[Interplanner]

Notrash,
what 'war continued to the end' by 33? Do you understand that the question is about one piece among many of things that happen in that 70th week? So what war are you thinking it is talking about?

 

[shturt678s]

Notrash: If you have a discussion with interplanner it will always end up in a circle!

I can assure you the small circle here is much warmer, and less pokey, than the porcupine quills that I feel when I leave here going to the big city this morning.

Still trying to remove the quills from the last trip,

Old man Jack, btw appreciate you and your words my friend always.

 

[Notrash]

Notrash,
what 'war continued to the end' by 33? Do you understand that the question is about one piece among many of things that happen in that 70th week? So what war are you thinking it is talking about?

There are different contexts and 'ends' in view of different subjects. Dan 7:26 for example is about the roman empire thys 'until the consumatiin' or however that is worded refers to the believers nation consuming the roman empire till its fall also which many historians put at @475 AD.

But that doesn't and didn't mean that the end of the world was in 475, just the end if the roman empire.

There are at least 2 things in play in vs 26 & 27 in dan 9. 1. The 70 weeks and 2, tge things caused by or effecteted by the will of the creator in ratifying the new covt. Some of those things effected by the events to occur within the 70 weeks BUT BEING ALLOWED TO OCCUR OUTSIDE OF OR AFTER THE 70 WEEKS included the ending of sacrifice and oblation and the destruction of the city and temple. Note that events of the 70 weeks were to occur within the 70 weeks were prophecied for the people and the city in vs 24, but they don't include the desolation of the city like a flood.

Do a search for Dan 9 commentary on a website called: let God be true. I believe he hits dan 9 pretty well except for some righteous comments.
The emphasis is that the 70th week is the positive covenant from Edeen, of life, goodness, etc. The desolations were part of the effects of the eternal establishment of the positive will and love of God in the good way, but they are not of the covt (70th week) itself.

The pronoun of "its" tells what end is in place in dan 9. Its end shall be as a flood. Until the end (of the mosaic covt, desolatiins are determined. "Until" can carry the connotation of 'for the purposes of".

The end in view is that of the end of the mosaic covt, not specifically of the 70 weeks.

 

[Notrash]

Daniel Chapter 9