Why the poor aren't getting ahead.

[Hank77]

Among some groups of inner city residents upwards of 70% of babies are born out of wedlock and by consequence most of those are born into poverty. The structure of the welfare system makes it disadvantageous for the father to be in the home and so young girls raise children on their own with nobody to help but Uncle Sam.

This is true.
Another problem is that when a woman gets a little education, data entry, receptiionist, etc. and finds a job she ends up with less resources than she had. She and her kids get taken off so many of the safety net programs that she actually ends up getting behind rather than ahead.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It must not have been a very big car payment. I made $9 a wk. delivering newspapers in 1966 - 1968.

If I recall he made about $35 per month (this was in 1960).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why "get ahead"? You're only asking for trouble.

Matthew 23:11-12
The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.…

The proverb is true. I'm living proof.

 

[timewerx]

The proverb is true. I'm living proof.

I don't think that is applicable here on Earth.

We have lots of evil people who lived long and good lives. And of course, disciples and saints who only lived short lives, cut short by tragic deaths, and sometimes their corpse not even buried.

I think that verse is talking about our inheritance after this life.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't think that is applicable here on Earth.

We have lots of evil people who lived long and good lives. And of course, disciples and saints who only lived short lives, cut short by tragic deaths, and sometimes their corpse not even buried.

I think that verse is talking about our inheritance after this life.

The context is behaviors and attitudes in the present.

 

[timewerx]

The context is behaviors and attitudes in the present.

Still doesn't work all the time. I know many who dies in arrogance.

So I think we can say with certainty those verses are talking about our inheritance after this life.

When Jesus say something will happen, it will happen. If it doesn't happen, that's because our expectations are wrong because our interpretation of that teaching is wrong.

 

[381465]

Still doesn't work all the time. I know many who dies in arrogance.

So I think we can say with certainty those verses are talking about our inheritance after this life.

When Jesus say something will happen, it will happen. If it doesn't happen, that's because our expectations are wrong because our interpretation of that teaching is wrong.

Not my conversation, but I couldn't say that Matthew 23:11 is a reference after this life. It is on preaching/extolling the virtues of humility.

 

[timewerx]

Not my conversation, but I couldn't say that Matthew 23:11 is a reference after this life. It is on preaching/extolling the virtues of humility.

Actually it's the verse 12 that extolls the virtue of humility.

Verse 11 is humbling the proud as a form of punishment.

If we quote the verses prior to see the whole context:

Matthew 23:8-12
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Of course, if you observe reality, it doesn't happen all the time. Not all the arrogant are humbled in their lifetime. The obvious answer is that the punishment or reward may not happen in ones lifetime but to the next.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Actually it's the verse 12 that extolls the virtue of humility.

Verse 11 is humbling the proud as a form of punishment.

If we quote the verses prior to see the whole context:

Matthew 23:8-12
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Of course, if you observe reality, it doesn't happen all the time. Not all the arrogant are humbled in their lifetime. The obvious answer is that the punishment or reward may not happen in ones lifetime but to the next.

I have received that reward in my lifetime, therefore I believe it can pertain to both the here and the hereafter.

 

[Earatha]

I have sympathy for how hard it is to get out of mind-numbing poverty. I went from a minimum wage job to an engineer by putting myself through school.

Could I have done this if I had a child? No
Could I have done this without Pell Grants, need-based scholarships, and federally subsidized student loans? No.
Could I have done this without friends who allowed me to squat with them for months? No.
Could I have done this without working almost the entire time I was in school? No
Could I have done this if I kept my retail job I had when I started school? No

It took me five years. I did it without a computer of my own, and taking out a LOT of loans. I was lucky that I lived in a county (read that again, a COUNTY) which heavily subsidized their community college to residents. Which was good, since I didn't qualify for aid when I went to take my math and science courses.

There are waiting lists for a lot of programs at these schools. There are waiting lists to get on the waiting lists. And this is assuming your job will work around classes.

The barriers to get out of the bottom are large. And they are daunting. It's fine to say "just work harder" but it is HARD. Humans have limits. They only have so much mental and physical energy.

I'm all for stratification. I think that if you work hard you should be rewarded. But the amount of effort needed should not be equal to the twelve labors of Heracles just to get out of the bottom.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have sympathy for how hard it is to get out of mind-numbing poverty. I went from a minimum wage job to an engineer by putting myself through school.

Could I have done this if I had a child? No
Could I have done this without Pell Grants, need-based scholarships, and federally subsidized student loans? No.
Could I have done this without friends who allowed me to squat with them for months? No.
Could I have done this without working almost the entire time I was in school? No
Could I have done this if I kept my retail job I had when I started school? No

It took me five years. I did it without a computer of my own, and taking out a LOT of loans. I was lucky that I lived in a county (read that again, a COUNTY) which heavily subsidized their community college to residents. Which was good, since I didn't qualify for aid when I went to take my math and science courses.

There are waiting lists for a lot of programs at these schools. There are waiting lists to get on the waiting lists. And this is assuming your job will work around classes.

The barriers to get out of the bottom are large. And they are daunting. It's fine to say "just work harder" but it is HARD. Humans have limits. They only have so much mental and physical energy.

I'm all for stratification. I think that if you work hard you should be rewarded. But the amount of effort needed should not be equal to the twelve labors of Heracles just to get out of the bottom.

I put in that Herculean effort and it paid off. People have more energy than they realize.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The barriers to get out of the bottom are large. And they are daunting. It's fine to say "just work harder" but it is HARD. Humans have limits. They only have so much mental and physical energy.

Poor people should join the army (if they can get in). They will learn that indeed they can do things they didn't think they were capable of. They might even qualify for educational grants.

Then they should be made to "double a penny for thirty days" as a demonstration of what usually must happen before success comes. At about day 20 they might catch a glimpse.

It's the same principal as tree rings. A maturing tree puts on a good amount of wood each year, but only after it gets well past the sapling stage. Most don't have the patience to suffer through the sapling stage, thus no lumber.

 

[Earatha]

So did I. And it did for me. But barely. I got lucky.

To say that "poor people should join the army" actually shocks me. Not only is this not an option for everyone, leaving those who can't left with fewer options, this is the option many poor people take and it often doesn't work out for a lot of reasons. My veteran husband has mild PTSD, is this a price he should have had to pay for job training? What about those who come back with severe mental or physical problems, with the VA being the hole of terrible that it is, what did they gain from this?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So did I. And it did for me. But barely. I got lucky.

To say that "poor people should join the army" actually shocks me. Not only is this not an option for everyone, leaving those who can't left with fewer options, this is the option many poor people take and it often doesn't work out for a lot of reasons. My veteran husband has mild PTSD, is this a price he should have had to pay for job training? What about those who come back with severe mental or physical problems, with the VA being the hole of terrible that it is, what did they gain from this?

Very few soldiers see combat so the risk is pretty small and the rewards are pretty good.

 

[Earatha]

PTSD isn't limited to those who see combat.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

PTSD isn't limited to those who see combat.

No problem. If someone fears or is unable to deal with mental stress they shouldn't join. Everyone gets screwed up a little even when there is no fighting going on. It has been said that it takes just as long to get straight as your time in service. I can attest to that. The military does mess with your mind.

 

[Earatha]

So they are condemned to poverty because they didn't want to be shot at with rubber bullets while running through groves of black palms which have spikes that drive though skin and muscle?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So they are condemned to poverty because they didn't want to be shot at with rubber bullets while running through groves of black palms which have spikes that drive though skin and muscle?

Whaaat???

 

[Earatha]

Evasion training in the jungle.

 

[RDKirk]

Not a goal but it is a fact. But as your somewhat snarky comment infers, we shouldn't settle. Are we all familiar with this verse?

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

In addition to remaining pure before the Lord, taking care of those who can't help themselves is part of our religion. But the word for religion there, thrēskeia, is really the idea of "worship." Our worship should include taking care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Yes, it's an acknowledgement that the world economic systems will always create a pool of poverty.