WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

[Root of Jesse]

You gave one scripture reference from each gospel showing/proving that none of them said "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" or "week-day-1 is our new day of rest and worship" or ....

Bob, maybe you should ask the author of Scripture to change His wording. Even Revelation says that John was caught up in spirit on the Lord's Day. It was even a Mass he was caught up into, in case you didn't know.
Scripture doesn't say what day we are to worship.
In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 states, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” These Scriptures make it clear that, for the Christian, Sabbath-keeping is a matter of spiritual freedom, not a command from God. Sabbath-keeping is an issue on which God’s Word instructs us not to judge each other. Sabbath-keeping is a matter about which each Christian needs to be fully convinced in his/her own mind.

In the early chapters of the book of Acts, the first Christians were predominantly Jews. When Gentiles began to receive the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, the Jewish Christians had a dilemma. What aspects of the Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition should Gentile Christians be instructed to obey? The apostles met and discussed the issue in the Jerusalem council (Acts 15). The decision was, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood” (Acts 15:19-20). Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to force on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day.

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship. Groups such as the Seventh Day Adventists hold that God requires the church service to be held on Saturday, the Sabbath day. That is not what the Sabbath command was. The Sabbath command was to do no work on the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8-11). Yes, Jews in Old Testament, New Testament, and modern times use Saturday as the day of worship, but that is not the essence of the Sabbath command. In the book of Acts, whenever a meeting is said to be on the Sabbath, it is a meeting of Jews and/or Gentile converts to Judaism, not Christians.

When did the early Christians meet? Acts 2:46-47 gives us the answer, “Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” If there was a day that Christians met regularly, it was the first day of the week (our Sunday), not the Sabbath day (our Saturday) (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2). In honor of Christ’s resurrection on Sunday, the early Christians observed Sunday not as the “Christian Sabbath” but as a day to especially worship Jesus Christ.

Is there anything wrong with worshiping on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath? Absolutely not! We should worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday! Many churches today have both Saturday and Sunday services. There is freedom in Christ (Romans 8:21; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 5:1). Should a Christian practice Sabbath-keeping, that is, not working on Saturdays? If a Christian feels led to do so, absolutely, yes (Romans 14:5). However, those who choose to practice Sabbath-keeping should not judge those who do not keep the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16). Further, those who do not keep the Sabbath should avoid being a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 8:9) to those who do keep the Sabbath. Galatians 5:13-15 sums up the whole issue: “You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”

 

[Root of Jesse]

What are all these bold numbers?

Reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually faith is based on God's Word *ROMANS 10:17 according to the scriptures. So after all that you have written here wouldn't it be easier to state you have no scripture to support your view?

Note that it says "Faith come from hearing God's Word..."...

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think it is the Catholic Catechism pescador. Some put it in place of the bible.

Nobody puts it in place of the Bible. Although nearly every line of Scripture is referenced in the Cathechism.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It saddens me no end that people put the Catholic Catechism in place of the Bible, which is the Word of God in written form.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book." Revelation 22:18

Yes, but we don't do that. In fact, the Catechism ties together all our beliefs. But Sacred Scripture is part of the teachings of God. The other parts are Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Magisterium.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where does it say that "the teaching of the Church, the Magisterium, is by nature, the Word of God"? The Word of God is the (infallible) Bible, not something made up by the Catholic church.

We know what the apostles taught their disciples, and how the faith was handed down. That's what the Magisterium is. Jesus told us he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles in ALL TRUTH. And we believe he did just that. Don't you? The Holy Spirit has guided the Catholic Church, and protected the Church from teaching error.

 

[BobRyan]

And I gave one scripture reference in each gospel to show where it comes from.

You gave one scripture reference from each gospel showing/proving that none of them said "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" or "week-day-1 is our new day of rest and worship" or ....

Bob, maybe you should ask the author of Scripture to change His wording.

If I were trying to push a narrative that "The Bible says week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" --- I guess you would be right - I would be making a "request" of the Author of Scripture.

But since I am "not that guy" not sure you are directing your response to the right person... I don't have that bias to start with.

Even Revelation says that John was caught up in spirit on the Lord's Day.

And yet does not say "The Lord's day is week-day-2" or is "week-day-1" or ...

That little detail keeps popping up.

It also does not say "I was CAUGHT UP in the spirit" in Rev 1:10 ... is that something else you were hoping to find there?

Scripture doesn't say what day we are to worship.

Scripture says that the 7th day is "a day of Holy Convocation" Lev 23:3
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation;

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Both Jews and gentiles met for worship and more gospel preaching --- "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship.

The Bible is not "in error"

 

[BobRyan]

In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 states, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike.

1. The word "Alike" in Rom 14:5 is added - as all Bible translations point out.. it is not in the text. So that Rom 14 text becomes a reference to the annual holy days of Lev 23 where one man observes one above the others while another man observes them all. What Paul did not allow - is observing every day of the year because in Gal 4 Paul condemns observance of even one pagan holy day. So Rom 14 can't be bent to say that someone was keeping 365 days of the year as a holy day of rest and worship.

2. In Col 2 , neither eating or drinking or observing a feast-day annual shadow Sabbath (that was founded in animal sacrifice pointing to Christ) is being condemned.

3. Matthew 7 "do not judge that you be not judged" is a command that was true before the cross - and in Col 2 - it is still true after the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship. Groups such as the Seventh Day Adventists hold that God requires the church service to be held on Saturday, the Sabbath day. That is not what the Sabbath command was.

==========
#1. I would not call these Catholic source "Seventh-day Adventists"

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

=========================
#2 Even the following commentary on the Catholic Catechism says that the Lord's Day was Saturday

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

=========================== end quote

 

[BobRyan]

The commandment is to worship God.And so we should rest, as God did, on the Sabbath.

ok


Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


====================================
“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..tha is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

==============================

"Changing the Lord's day" from Saturday?

Does the Lord's day call for worship?

 

[Root of Jesse]

You gave one scripture reference from each gospel showing/proving that none of them said "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" or "week-day-1 is our new day of rest and worship" or ....

I will give it one more try, and then I'll just let you go on being Bob. I have never said there is a scripture that quotes the gospel according to Bob. Scripture does say that the disciples discovered the empty tomb, which is the day we worship.

If I were trying to push a narrative that "The Bible says week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" --- I guess you would be right - I would be making a "request" of the Author of Scripture.

Who is trying to push such a narrative, Bob?

But since I am "not that guy" not sure you are directing your response to the right person... I don't have that bias to start with.

Nor am I that guy. I don't have a bias. I speak of how we, and most Christians worship, and why. You speak as you and SDAs worship and why. That's not your own bias? Seeing as there were no SDAs in the first generation of Christianity...

And yet does not say "The Lord's day is week-day-2" or is "week-day-1" or ...

That little detail keeps popping up.

Your little detail, not mine.

It also does not say "I was CAUGHT UP in the spirit" in Rev 1:10 ... is that something else you were hoping to find there?

Bob the literalist.

Scripture says that the 7th day is "a day of Holy Convocation" Lev 23:3
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation;

Now you're playing dueling translations. Mine says "For six days work may be done; but the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest, a declared holy day; you shall do no work. It is the LORD’s sabbath wherever you dwell...
Note: it doesn't say it's a day of worship, but a day of rest.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Question, Bob...How long after Leviticus was Isaiah written? As I've said, since there was a lot of labor to be done, and the Sabbath was a day of rest, it's obvious why they worship on the Sabbath, but it's primarily a day of rest.

Both Jews and gentiles met for worship and more gospel preaching --- "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4

Already agreed, and I told you why.

The Bible is not "in error"

Never did I say such.

 

[Root of Jesse]

1. The word "Alike" in Rom 14:5 is added - as all Bible translations point out.. it is not in the text. So that Rom 14 text becomes a reference to the annual holy days of Lev 23 where one man observes one above the others while another man observes them all. What Paul did not allow - is observing every day of the year because in Gal 4 Paul condemns observance of even one pagan holy day. So Rom 14 can't be bent to say that someone was keeping 365 days of the year as a holy day of rest and worship.

I'm not going to debate translations, Bob. It's there. IT doesn't change anything I said.

2. In Col 2 , neither eating or drinking or observing a feast-day annual shadow Sabbath (that was founded in animal sacrifice pointing to Christ) is being condemned.

3. Matthew 7 "do not judge that you be not judged" is a command that was true before the cross - and in Col 2 - it is still true after the cross.

What's your point? And how does it refute anything I wrote?

 

[BobRyan]

deleted

 

[Root of Jesse]

==========
#1. I would not call these Catholic source "Seventh-day Adventists"

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

=========================
#2 Even the following commentary on the Catholic Catechism says that the Lord's Day was Saturday

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

=========================== end quote

Nor would I, but they are not authoritative Catholic. I think you like taking up space on the page, Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not going to debate translations, Bob.

Me neither -- I just pointed to the fact that all translations not that the word "Alike" is an insert. I did not create that fact -- I was just noting it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

??

You seem to be losing focus

Also, I changed what I wrote because it was unChristian. Sorry. But you're the one losing focus, and ignoring what my point was. So I'm going to leave the discussion, having made my point. If you would, please change the quote to what I edited it to. And forgive me for saying something like that.

 

[BobRyan]

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship. Groups such as the Seventh Day Adventists hold that God requires the church service to be held on Saturday, the Sabbath day. That is not what the Sabbath command was.

==========
#1. I would not call these Catholic source "Seventh-day Adventists"

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

=========================
#2 Even the following commentary on the Catholic Catechism says that the Lord's Day was Saturday

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

=========================== end quote

Nor would I, but they are not authoritative Catholic. I think you like taking up space on the page, Bob.

Neither can you wave them all away with "groups such as Seventh-day Adventists" -- I am simply pointing to the irrefutable fact that they are not "groups such as Seventh-day Adventists" and of course the Papal Imprimature on the "Faith Explained" argues against the "nobody reads this" idea since it is a "standard reference for every catholic home and library" according to what is stated on that document.

I cannot be blamed as the source/author for every Catholic reference document I post. I did not write them and there is no "Bob's imprimatur" that I can place on them.

You are free to attack those Catholic documents of course - I merely note that they exist in case someone wishes to recast all this as "some groups such as Seventh-day Adventists"

 

[BobRyan]

Also, I changed what I wrote because it was unChristian. Sorry. But you're the one losing focus, and ignoring what my point was. So I'm going to leave the discussion, having made my point. If you would, please change the quote to what I edited it to. And forgive me for saying something like that.

will update it - forgiven. (not that I have the ability to offer any forgiveness since I hold no power and am not allowed by Christ to hold a spirit of unforgiveness no matter what according to Matthew 18).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Note that it says "Faith come from hearing God's Word..."...

and hearing from where? Yep the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17

 

[Root of Jesse]

==========
#1. I would not call these Catholic source "Seventh-day Adventists"

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

=========================
#2 Even the following commentary on the Catholic Catechism says that the Lord's Day was Saturday

“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

=========================== end quote



Neither can you wave them all away with "groups such as Seventh-day Adventists" -- I am simply pointing to the irrefutable fact that they are not "groups such as Seventh-day Adventists" and of course the Papal Imprimature on the "Faith Explained" argues against the "nobody reads this" idea since it is a "standard reference for every catholic home and library" according to what is stated on that document.

It's 'imprimatur', and it's really a paid endorsement of something. I didn't say nobody reads it, just that it has no authority. And there you go. A document calls itself a standard reference for every catholic home and library, and you want to believe it? It's not on my bookshelf, and I identify as Catholic.

I cannot be blamed as the source/author for every Catholic reference document I post. I did not write them and there is no "Bob's imprimatur" that I can place on them.

It would help if it carried some authority.
"Imprimatur" is Latin for "let it be printed." An imprimatur is a bishop's permission to print a religious book. The bishop is always the local ordinary of the author who wrote the book. The Catholic Code of Canon Law, canons 822-4, requires pastors to help guide the faithful in their use of social communication and particularly books. The imprimatur is one way that charge is carried out.

An imprimatur is always preceded by a "nihil obstat," which is Latin for "nothing stands in the way." This is the judgment that the religious book contains no significant doctrinal errors. Both the imprimatur and the nihil obstat are negative judgments insofar as they are not meant to positively approve the contents of the book, but are merely meant to say that it is not disapproved. It sometimes happens that imprimaturs or nihil obstats are revoked after a period of time due to a discovery of doctrinal errors in the work.

You are free to attack those Catholic documents of course - I merely note that they exist in case someone wishes to recast all this as "some groups such as Seventh-day Adventists"

There are differing opinions on things in Catholic doctrine. That doesn't make the disagreements right.