WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

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BobRyan

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Acts 13 both Jews and gentiles gather for worship on the Sabbath and the gentiles after hearing the gospel ask that the gospel be presented again "the next Sabbath" so that they can have all their family and friends hear it.

Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles hearing the gospel each Sabbath as they gather for worship... "every Sabbath".

Shows that the Sabbath commandment has a lot to do with worship.



Paul was going around making converts, mostly of Jews. Where would Jews gather the most? On the Sabbath.

The text does not simply say "Paul went to the Synagogue to try and reach some Jews with the gospel Sabbath after Sabbath" -- it says that those who heard and accepted the Gospel "asked for it to be preached again NEXT Sabbath" -- and it says it is NOT the Jews asking for that -- but the believing gentiles asking for more gospel "the next Sabbath".

What is more those gentiles (and Jews) were hearing the Gospel "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4

Right. Because that was the day the Jews worshiped.

It is not Jews asking for more "gospel to be presented on the next Sabbath" and then inviting all their friends on that "next Sabbath" in Acts 13... it is gentiles doing that.

I don't think it would have done any good to go on Sunday, the place would be empty.

It would be pretty hard to make a Gospel presentation where you say to gentiles "and so Sunday is now the Lord's day for those that accept the Gospel but let's not meet tomorrow because the synagogue won't be open". Gentiles would not accept that as a good reason not to have some sort of meeting on Sunday ... some place.

So how "instructive" then that it is the believing gentiles themselves that ask for that "next Sabbath"

Also, I'd like to point out that Jesus showed up in the upper room on Sunday,

1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1

Look, there is plenty of reason for us worshiping on Sunday.

you can have any tradition you like for a worship service on Tuesday or Sunday or Thursday or ... you have free will.

But the title of this thread is about "The Lord's Day" of scripture and whether according to scripture it is Sunday.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The text does not simply say "Paul went to the Synagogue to try and reach some Jews with the gospel Sabbath after Sabbath" -- it says that those who heard and accepted the Gospel "asked for it to be preached again NEXT Sabbath" -- and it says it is NOT the Jews asking for that -- but the believing gentiles asking for more gospel "the next Sabbath".

What is more those gentiles (and Jews) were hearing the Gospel "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4
Realizing that, at the time, the Christians were still Jews who obeyed Jewish law, it's understandable. The gentiles who were there were there by word of mouth.
It is not Jews asking for more "gospel to be presented on the next Sabbath" and then inviting all their friends on that "next Sabbath" in Acts 13... it is gentiles doing that.
It is also known that being a Jew was as much ethnicity as faith, and that any ethnic non-Jew would always be a gentile. Paul was converting people, but his MO was to target gatherings of Jews, and those gatherings would be on the Sabbath. And there would be gentiles among them.
It would be pretty hard to make a Gospel presentation where you say to gentiles "and so Sunday is now the Lord's day for those that accept the Gospel but let's not meet tomorrow because the synagogue won't be open". Gentiles would not accept that as a good reason not to have some sort of meeting on Sunday ... some place.
The Church accepts people as they are. We're often accused of being pagan because we take pagan practices and make them ours, as Jesus made baptism the entry into Christianity. So you take them where they are, and gradually instruct them as to how we practice our faith. FWIW, we still have Sunday Mass on Saturday evening, recognizing the Jewish custom of a day being from sundown to sundown.
So how "instructive" then that it is the believing gentiles themselves that ask for that "next Sabbath"
The instructiveness of Paul's teaching was telling them the Good News. Christianity today says "
No specific names or dates are associated with the church's shift from observing the holy day on Saturday to observing it on Sunday. At first, especially when many Christians were converted Jews, their holy day was Saturday. However, because the Resurrection and the beginning of Creation had both occurred on the first day of the week (Sunday), the church soon observed that day instead. (More Gentiles were becoming Christians as well, which contributed to a desire to shake off Jewish customs.) By the end of the first century, Sunday worship was the norm. We can assume the change caused some friction, for in Colossians 2:16 Paul admonishes, "Therefore do no let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

It's important to note that the Sabbath was not simply moved; Christians altered the observance as well as the day. Hallmarks of the early Christian "Lord's day" celebration, according to Justin Martyr (ca. 100-ca. 165), included readings from Scripture (particularly the Gospels), a sermon, communal prayer, and Communion—very different from Jewish Sabbath observance. By Jewish standards, Christians don't keep the Sabbath at all.
[/quote]

1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1
[/quote]Jesus appeared through closed doors on two consecutive Sundays.
you can have any tradition you like for a worship service on Tuesday or Sunday or Thursday or ... you have free will.

But the title of this thread is about "The Lord's Day" of scripture and whether according to scripture it is Sunday.
The Christianity Today article says it pretty well.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul was converting people, but his MO was to target gatherings of Jews, and those gatherings would be on the Sabbath. And there would be gentiles among them.

By going to the synagogues to speak to both Jews and gentiles - Paul had the advantage of not having to tell them "hey all your pagan gods are false gods - and only the one true God of Genesis is the real one".

I could instead skip over all the basics and get to the point of identifying who the long-promised Messiah was.

Still...

gentiles... (not Jews)

.. asked for "to hear the Gospel again next Sabbath"

Which means his Gospel message to them could not have been "according to my gospel we switched from remembering the creation event on the 7th day - to now remembering the resurrection event on week-day-1 which we now call the Lord's day".

We're often accused of being pagan because we take pagan practices and make them ours,

And sometimes that practice ends poorly.

It's important to note that the Sabbath was not simply moved; Christians altered the observance as well as the day.

Over the centuries a great many Christians have done a great many things.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus appeared through closed doors on two consecutive Sundays.

So then we could add some extreme-inference to that fact and turn it into ?? what?

1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1 ... even so we do not refrain from work every day.

God is fully capable of saying in scripture "the 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 if indeed that is the case.

On this thread we note that no text says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
 
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Root of Jesse

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By going to the synagogues to speak to both Jews and gentiles - Paul had the advantage of not having to tell them "hey all your pagan gods are false gods - and only the one true God of Genesis is the real one".

I could instead skip over all the basics and get to the point of identifying who the long-promised Messiah was.

Still...

gentiles... (not Jews)

.. asked for "to hear the Gospel again next Sabbath"

Which means his Gospel message to them could not have been "according to my gospel we switched from remembering the creation event on the 7th day - to now remembering the resurrection event on week-day-1 which we now call the Lord's day".
It wasn't Paul's gospel, first of all, and as the article I copied says, it happened gradually. After the first generation.
And sometimes that practice ends poorly.
Your opinion. Which ones don't you approve of?
Over the centuries a great many Christians have done a great many things.
True. But there was a good and valid reason to change the day we worship the Lord Jesus.
 
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Root of Jesse

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1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1 ... even so we do not refrain from work every day.

God is fully capable of saying in scripture "the 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 if indeed that is the case.

On this thread we note that no text says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
Where have I denied that? But also note that we don't hold Sacred Scripture as the only way God speaks to us.
The 7th day IS the Sabbath, a day of rest we're asked to keep holy by not doing servile work.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1 ... even so we do not refrain from work every day.

God is fully capable of saying in scripture "the 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 if indeed that is the case.

On this thread we note that no text says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"

Where have I denied that?

I actually don't mind having some agreement here. I will take it.

But also note that we don't hold Sacred Scripture as the only way God speaks to us.
The 7th day IS the Sabbath, a day of rest we're asked to keep holy by not doing servile work.

If your argument is that the ten commandments were edited/altered/downsized and a replacement was provided for one of the commandments - via some path other than scripture (for example... tradition) then you and I are not that far apart in stating that this is the source of that edit.
 
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BobRyan

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By going to the synagogues to speak to both Jews and gentiles - Paul had the advantage of not having to tell them "hey all your pagan gods are false gods - and only the one true God of Genesis is the real one".

He could instead skip over all the basics and get to the point of identifying who the long-promised Messiah was.

Still...
gentiles... (not Jews)
.. asked for "to hear the Gospel again next Sabbath"

Which means his Gospel message to them could not have been "according to my gospel we switched from remembering the creation event on the 7th day - to now remembering the resurrection event on week-day-1 which we now call the Lord's day".


It wasn't Paul's gospel, first of all,

Agreed it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But Paul did not hesitate to call that his Gospel in Romans 2 - which is why I used that phrase - I was not trying to denigrate that point - just using his phrase.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

as the article I copied says, it happened gradually.

Which is the part that I agree with in terms of history and how things came about.

But there was a good and valid reason to change the day we worship the Lord Jesus.

What is the good reason for allowing man made tradition to edit/alter the Word of God - in fact the Command of God -- without a Bible text for stating such a core change?
 
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Root of Jesse

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I actually don't mind having some agreement here. I will take it.



If your argument is that the ten commandments were edited/altered/downsized and a replacement was provided for one of the commandments - via some path other than scripture (for example... tradition) then you and I are not that far apart in stating that this is the source of that edit.
Well, the truth is Jesus summarized them quite succinctly. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

But no, I don't hold that they were edited or altered, I just don't see much there that says we have to worship God on the Sabbath. We are to honor God and keep the day holy by not doing any servile work. And as I said, it stands to reason that the Jews would worship on that day. Even through the first generation of Christians. I also provided a reasoning as to why they changed the day of worship AS WELL AS the form of worship.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Agreed it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But Paul did not hesitate to call that his Gospel in Romans 2 - which is why I used that phrase - I was not trying to denigrate that point - just using his phrase.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



Which is the part that I agree with in terms of history and how things came about.



What is the good reason for allowing man made tradition to edit/alter the Word of God - in fact the Command of God -- without a Bible text for stating such a core change?
Show me where we edited or altered the Word of God? And I have shown at least four texts we emphasize to justify worshiping the Resurrection of Christ on Sunday.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan

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And I have shown at least four texts we emphasize to justify worshiping the Resurrection of Christ on Sunday.

And I have stated that inference no matter how extreme is not the same as having an actual text that says "week day 1 is the Lord's day our new weekly day of worship" or something of that sort.

Many traditions exist and use any number of texts to justify them. That is a given. This thread is about a Bible statement for it.

From the OP

Hi All,

This thread is for scripture only. We would like to show that based on the scriptures alone the "LORD'S DAY" that many proclaim is SUNDAY is a false ....

Which at the very least is setting a scripture-only context for showing that week-day-1 is the Lord's Day, as the task to be accomplished on this thread.

Someone may add "well you can't show it from scripture -- only from tradition" which is a reasonable response if that is what they think is the case.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
1. They showed up in the upper room for 10 days in a row in Acts 1 ... even so we do not refrain from work every day.

God is fully capable of saying in scripture "the 7th day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:10 if indeed that is the case.

On this thread we note that no text says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"

Where have I denied that?

I actually don't mind having some agreement here. I will take it.

But also note that we don't hold Sacred Scripture as the only way God speaks to us.
The 7th day IS the Sabbath, a day of rest we're asked to keep holy by not doing servile work.

If your argument is that the ten commandments were edited/altered/downsized and a replacement was provided for one of the commandments - via some path other than scripture (for example... tradition) then you and I are not that far apart in stating that this is the source of that edit.


Ex 20:10 "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"
Lev 23:2-3 "A day of holy convocation" - "

2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is the Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

.., I just don't see much there that says we have to worship God on the Sabbath.

interesting..
 
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BobRyan

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Well, the truth is Jesus summarized them quite succinctly. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

True.

In Matt 22 Jesus reminds them of the OT fact that
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
were the two commands that all leading scholars agreed - were the rock solid foundation for "all the law AND the prophets"

But no, I don't hold that they were edited or altered,

Well I certainly don't claim to have edited or altered them.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Turns out - the Word of God - is the text that speaks about a weekly day of worship
But we didn't alter the Word of God. We just recognize that the Bible isn't the only Word of God.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The fourth commandment is Honor your father and mother. The commandment to keep the Sabbath holy doesn't say what you think it says. The Sabbath is a day of rest because God rested on the Sabbath. If you want to say that constitutes worship, that's your definition, but I think it's following God's law. Again, we worship the discovery of the empty tomb on Sunday, the day of the week it was found to be empty and the stone rolled away. This does not supplant the Sabbath rest.
Actually no. God's 4th commandments is to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" Exodus 20:8-11. I thought you were saying that the RCC does not alter the Word of God? There is not a single scripture that supports the rest of your post.
 
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BobRyan

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''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.” Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine law". The pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts a vicegerent of God upon earth" Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. Papa, II, Vol. VI, p. 29.

"When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God."-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, I951.

"If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday, with the Jews, instead of Sunday; ..." -- A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, by Rev. John Laux M.A., Benzinger Brothers, 1936 edition, Part 1.

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first." Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

''Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.'' John Cardinal Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.


=========================
The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..tha is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

But we didn't alter the Word of God. We just recognize that the Bible isn't the only Word of God.

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy..."

Root of Jesse said:
I also provided a reasoning as to why they changed the day of worship AS WELL AS the form of worship.

(And the Bible speaks of the weekly day of worship - in Lev 23:2-3, Isaiah 66:23, Ex 20:10-11)

1. you and the other sources use the term "changed" as in "they changed the day"

-- so then "changed from what?" -- changed from what the Bible says..


The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it..

2. is it your claim that "some OTHER Word of God" was "Changed" and not the Bible?

3. If your argument is that "it is not in the Bible rather it is in some OTHER Word of God that we find that Sunday is the Lord's Day" -- then it may be you are in agreement with at least part of the OP.
 
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BobRyan

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But we didn't alter the Word of God. We just recognize that the Bible isn't the only Word of God.

Hi All,

This thread is for scripture only. We would like to show that based on the scriptures alone the "LORD'S DAY" that many proclaim is SUNDAY is a false teaching and you will not find this in God's WORD.

If we use the author's definition of "God's Word" and compare it to your "not the Bible but some OTHER word of God" (in your "Bible isn't the only Word of God" statement) --then maybe you are both in agreement on at least one point.

Namely that "the CHANGE" comes about not from the Bible as the Word of God - but rather from what you call some OTHER Word of God, which is what many would call "NOT the Word of God but rather tradition outside of the Bible" - and is one of the main points the author of the OP is trying to make.

There are "other" threads here that discuss how much outside tradition should be accepted as "The Word of God" - but for the sake of the context of this thread - it seems that the main point is that the tradition of "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" does not come from the Bible.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually no. God's 4th commandments is to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" Exodus 20:8-11. I thought you were saying that the RCC does not alter the Word of God? There is not scripture that supports the rest of your post.
The way you count them is not the way we count them. There are no Roman numerals in front of them. For 2000 years, the first three commandments are about loving God, and the last 7 are about loving mankind. Only when Luther at al branched off did they decide to renumber them.
As for your comment, there doesn't need to be Scripture to support the rest. The Word of God does, though.
 
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Root of Jesse

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If we use the author's definition of "God's Word" and compare it to your "not the Bible but some OTHER word of God" (in your "Bible isn't the only Word of God" statement) --then maybe you are both in agreement on at least one point.

Namely that "the CHANGE" comes about not from the Bible as the Word of God - but rather from what you call some OTHER Word of God, which is what many would call "NOT the Word of God but rather tradition outside of the Bible" - and is one of the main points the author of the OP is trying to make.

There are "other" threads here that discuss how much outside tradition should be accepted as "The Word of God" - but for the sake of the context of this thread - it seems that the main point is that the tradition of "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" does not come from the Bible.
Well, it's a false premise. To say from the beginning that only Scripture is to be counted is incorrect.
As I've stated, we have not changed anything. We are all welcome to keep the Sabbath. And encouraged, honestly. Society doesn't promote that, but as worshipers, we should. But we worship God because of those Scriptures I quoted, one from each Gospel. We worship the Resurrection on Sunday.
By the way, the teaching of the Church, the Magisterium, is by nature, the Word of God. And while you always seem to forget that there is a difference between Sacred Tradition, which is also God's Word, and tradition, which is our practice, we know the difference.
 
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