WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

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Root of Jesse

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will update it - forgiven. (not that I have the ability to offer any forgiveness since I hold no power and am not allowed by Christ to hold a spirit of unforgiveness no matter what according to Matthew 18).
Asking forgiveness, and granting it, are how we open healing doors. Remember "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Thanks.
 
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BobRyan

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Asking forgiveness, and granting it, are how we open healing doors. Remember "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Thanks.

Amen -- in fact Christ does not offer any other option for a Christian.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Obviously, people speaking.
Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Depends, in the beginning there was the spoken Word of God then there is the written Word of God. They are both the Word of God. JESUS was the spoken Word of God who has given us the written Word of God. "All scriptures is God breathed, and the living Word of God and written for our admonition. The spoken Word does not contradict the written Word. Today we are to test the Spirits to see if they are from God or not and to study to show ourselves approved and to be like the faithful Bareans to see what is true and what is not.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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One non-authoritative source says changing, and you believe it, but when Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood..." it's symbolism. I see.
Those aren't my own documents, they're not authoritative. And I have given you Biblical reasoning for making the worship of Jesus on Sunday.
Biblical reasoning is based on scripture. You did not provide any scripture that says Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" because there is none. If there is please correct me. If not what is it based on?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Hi All,

This thread is for scripture only. We would like to show that based on the scriptures alone the "LORD'S DAY" that many proclaim is SUNDAY is a false teaching and you will not find this in God's WORD.

Let's start by looking at your scriptures that many use to claim SUNDAY is the "LORD'S DAY"

REVELATIONS 1:9-11 [9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. [10], I was in the Spirit on the LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11], Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

................

No doubt about it Revelations 1:10 clearly says that John was in the SPIRIT on the "LORD'S DAY"! NOW the only problem you have is the need to show scripture that says SUNDAY IS THE LORD'S DAY.

................

The challenge I am putting out there is if you believe Sunday is "the Lord's day" please prove that Sunday or the "first day of the week" is the Lord's day by scripture alone!

................

GREEK meaning of "the Lord's day" and the "Lord's day defined in the scriptures provided here linked.

................

If you cannot find any scriptures to say that SUNDAY is the "LORD'S DAY" then you have a problem. Now let's look at the scriptures that give the answer to our question

Q.
WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY.

Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)

God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

.............

Now friend's the SABBATH is the 4th Commandment of God's 10 Commandments and there is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says that God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep SUNDAY as a HOLY DAY. The same as there is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says that SUNDAY is the LORD'S DAY.

John in the book of REVELATIONS 1:10 was in the SPIRIT on the SABBATH DAY not SUNDAY!

.............

HOW WAS THE LORD'S DAY CHANGED TO SUNDAY?

SUNDAY Worship is a man-made teaching and tradition handed down by the Roman Catholic Church that goes against the teachings of the Bible and God’s Word *EXODUS 20:8-11




.............

ARE YOU UNKNOWINGLY FOLLOWING A MAN MADE TRADITION IN SUNDAY WORSHIP?

God's WORD is very clear. Jesus warns us in his own words not to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break God’s commandments in Matthew…

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, WHY DO YOU ALSO TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YOU MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION.
[7], YOU HYPOCRITES, WELL DID ESAIAS PROPHESY OF YOU, SAYING,
[8], THIS PEOPLE DRAWS NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
[9], BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

Who do we believe and follow? The teachings and traditions of men or the WORD of God? Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men.

.................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to the scriptures *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.


Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man. Jesus says that we shouldn't follow the traditions of man that go against the commandment of God. (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

In times of ignorance God winks at but when as knowledge of the truth has come God calls on all men everywhere to repent and believe his Word (Acts 17:30-31)

God's is calling his people to come out from following the traditions of men to worship him in Spirit and in truth.

..................

God knows many follow these traditions from ignorance because they do not know any better. He loves all and is calling all who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Seek him in prayer asking for his Spirit to guide and teach you. He promises to be your guide and teacher. (John 14:26; 16:13: 7:17)

(FRIENDLY DICUSSION PLEASE)

you said

“There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED”

But we read (in the Bible , the KJV)

Consider your error here

“ 2 Corinthians 3:7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:...13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
 
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LoveGodsWord

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you said

“There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED”

But we read (in the Bible , the KJV)

Consider your error here

“ 2 Corinthians 3:7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:...13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”

There is no error. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 does not teach anyone of God's 10 commandments are abolished. That interpretation goes pretty much against the whole bible. Read it again. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14 is talking about the old and new covenants and the two ministrations of the letter and spirit.

The ministration of death is condemnation for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and the new birth of God's love written on the heart that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit and to love *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself. See also HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-34 that defines what the new covenant is.

It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

Hope this helps.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Depends, in the beginning there was the spoken Word of God then there is the written Word of God. They are both the Word of God. JESUS was the spoken Word of God who has given us the written Word of God. "All scriptures is God breathed, and the living Word of God and written for our admonition. The spoken Word does not contradict the written Word. Today we are to test the Spirits to see if they are from God or not and to study to show ourselves approved and to be like the faithful Bareans to see what is true and what is not.
Another translation reads:
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
The next verse says:
But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

So, it's the spoken Word of God. We believe God still speaks to His Church. Regarding testing the Spirits, why? The Holy Spirit prevents us from making errors of faith. The Bereans were not faithful to the Church, that's why they split from it. They trusted their own authority, rather than the authority Christ gave the Church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Biblical reasoning is based on scripture. You did not provide any scripture that says Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" because there is none. If there is please correct me. If not what is it based on?
Scripture absolutely tells us that Sunday is the Lord's Day. Scripture does not tell us to worship Saturday only. It says we should love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Catholics do that by discovering the empty tomb every day, but manditorially on Sunday, the day the empty tomb was found (the first day of the week), agreed on in each gospel, and Revelation.
 
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Root of Jesse

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There is no error. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 does not teach anyone of God's 10 commandments are abolished. That interpretation goes pretty much against the whole bible. Read it again. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14 is talking about the old and new covenants and the two ministrations (Letter and Spirit). Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31 and the righteousness of Gods' law being fulfilled in those who walk in God's Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4. See also HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-34 that defines what the new covenant is.

Hope this helps.
But nobody has abolished any of the 10 Commandments.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Another translation reads:
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
The next verse says:
But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

So, it's the spoken Word of God. We believe God still speaks to His Church. Regarding testing the Spirits, why? The Holy Spirit prevents us from making errors of faith. The Bereans were not faithful to the Church, that's why they split from it. They trusted their own authority, rather than the authority Christ gave the Church.

Hi Jesse,

So what do you know is the Word of Christ if not through the written Word of God? How did the Bereans *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:11 study to show themselves approved of God if it was not through the written Word *2 TIMOTHY 2:15? It is through the written Word of God which we are to try the Spirits to see if they are of God or not *1 JOHN 4:1, as the spoken Word does not contradict the written Word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God breathed living) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 TIMOTHY 3:16. If the spoken Word of God contradicts the written Word it is because it is not from God. If the Church promotes teachings and traditions that are against the scriptures it is not from God.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Scripture absolutely tells us that Sunday is the Lord's Day. Scripture does not tell us to worship Saturday only. It says we should love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Catholics do that by discovering the empty tomb every day, but manditorially on Sunday, the day the empty tomb was found (the first day of the week), agreed on in each gospel, and Revelation.
There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day of rest. Revelation 1:10 as shown in the OP is in reference to the God's Holy day of rest which is the SABBATH day *MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28 not Sunday according to scripture.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There is no error. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 does not teach anyone of God's 10 commandments are abolished. That interpretation goes pretty much against the whole bible. Read it again. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14 is talking about the old and new covenants and the two ministrations of the letter and spirit.

The ministration of death is condemnation for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and the new birth of God's love written on the heart that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit and to love *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself. See also HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-34 that defines what the new covenant is.

It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

Hope this helps.
Hello again,

I don’t agree with your strange interpretation. Paul clearly is speaking of the tables of stone (Ten Commandments) given time Moses as he says in the verses.
Also Paul did not use the word “abolish” in Romans 3:31 he said

“ Romans 3:31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

but he did use the word for abolish and done away in 2 Cor 3. According to Paul those who don’t see this have the veil on their heart in reading the Old Testament .

The word “void” . And the word “abolished is in 2 Cor. There is a subtle difference in context. He is saying that through faith we don’t make Coid the law, but we establish it or the heart of the law which is to live God and our neighbour . All believers are in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes them free from the law of sin and death as Romans 8 says. We are married to another and dead to the law as Romans 7 speaks of. And just as a person can be an adulterer if he marries another while his wife lives a person can spiritually be adulterating if they say they are married to Christ and the law. As Paul showed here

“ Romans 7:2. For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hello again,

I don’t agree with your strange interpretation. Paul clearly is speaking of the tables of stone (Ten Commandments) given time Moses as he says in the verses.
Also Paul did not use the word “abolish” in Romans 3:31 he said

“ Romans 3:31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

but he did use the word for abolish and done away in 2 Cor 3. According to Paul those who don’t see this have the veil on their heart in reading the Old Testament .

The word “void” . And the word “abolished is in 2 Cor. There is a subtle difference in context. He is saying that through faith we don’t make Coid the law, but we establish it or the heart of the law which is to live God and our neighbour . All believers are in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes them free from the law of sin and death as Romans 8 says. We are married to another and dead to the law as Romans 7 speaks of. And just as a person can be an adulterer if he marries another while his wife lives a person can spiritually be adulterating if they say they are married to Christ and the law. As Paul showed here

“ Romans 7:2. For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

I am sorry dear friend but what you have posted here is not biblical but let me show you why I believe this through the scriptures and Greek texts used. As posted earlier, God's Word does not teach anywhere in the old or new testament scripture that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. That claim is simply unbiblical and goes against the teachings of JESUS and the whole bible. (scripture support here linked)

Your claiming that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about God's 10 commandments being abolished. You were shown through the scriptures in post # 347 linked that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about the "ministration" of the 10 commandments being abolished not the 10 commandments. As shown through the scriptures earlier, the "ministration" of the 10 commandments is "death and condemnation" for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and life and peace and the new birth of God's love written on the heart to love that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself.

In this post you try to argue that Paul did not use the word "abolish" in ROMANS 3:31. Here you are also wrong as the same Greek Word used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 is also used in ROMANS 3:31 and some English translations translate void to "abolish"

Here let's look at the evidence.....

ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Note: the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον ἱστῶμεν

Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7…

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

……………

Note: the same word used in ROMANS 3:31 for abolish is used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations. Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 καταργέω
Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2673: καταργέω
καταργέω, κατάργω; future καταργήσω; 1 aorist κατήργησα; perfect κατήργηκα; passive, present καταργοῦμαι; perfect κατήργημαι; 1 aorist κατηργήθην; 1 future καταργηθήσομαι; causative of the verb ἀργέω, equivalent to ἀργόν (i. e. ἀεργον (on the accent cf. Chandler § 444)) ποιῶ; frequent with Paul, who uses it 25 times (elsewhere in N. T. only twice (Luke, Heb.), in the Sept. 4 times (2 Esdr., see below)); 1. to render idle, unemployed, inactive, inoperative: τήν γῆν, to deprive of its strength, make barren (A. V. cumber), Luke 13:7; to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26; to make void, τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Galatians 3:17; passive Romans 4:14.

2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
: τί, 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 13:11; τόν νόμον, Romans 3:31; Ephesians 2:15; τόν καιρόν τοῦ ἀνόμου, Epistle of Barnabas 15, 5 [ET]; passive πόλεμος καταργεῖται ἐπουρανίων καί ἐπιγείων, Ignatius ad Eph. 13, 2 [ET]; ἵνα καταργηθῇ τό σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, that the body of sin might be done away, i. e. not the material of the body, but the body so far forth as it is an instrument of sin; accordingly, that the body may cease to be an instrument of sin, Romans 6:6. Passive to cease, pass away, be done away: of things, Galatians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 13:8, 10;
2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13f; of persons, followed by ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one (a pregnant construction, cf. Winers Grammar, 621 (577); Buttmann, 322 (277)): ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 5:4 (on the aorist cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 5 b.); ἀπό τοῦ νόμου, Romans 7: (2 (Relz omits τοῦ νόμου)),6. The word is rarely met with in secular authors, as Euripides, Phoen. 753 κατάργειν χερα, to make idle, i. e. to leave the hand unemployed; Polybius quoted in Suidas (s. v. κατηργηκεναι) τούς καιρούς, in the sense of to let slip, leave unused; in the Sept. four times for Chaldean בַּטֵּל, to make to cease, i. e. restrain, check, hinder, 2 Esdr. 4:21, 23 2Esdr. 5:5 2Esdr. 6:8.

.............

So as can be shown above your claims here are not true as the same Greek word is being used for abolish or to do away in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as it is in ROMANS 3:31 "Do we abolish/make void/eliminate the law through faith? God forbid we establish the law." Your interpretation of 2 CORITNTHIANS 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in ROMANS 3:31.

As posted earlier it is the ministration of the 10 commandments that are abolished for the believer which is condemnation and death through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

Sorry dear friend but both the scriptures and the Greek do not agree with you and neither does JESUS here....

MATTHEW 5:17-19 [17], THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFILL. [18], For truly I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE STROKE OR ONE PRONUNCIATION MARK SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. [19], whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Need more scripture? There is too many to post here linked)

...............

ROMANS 7 is showing the difference between the old man and the new. This is what marriage is a metaphor of. We cannot be married to the flesh (old sinful mind) and married to Christ. The old man must first die. Read it together with ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. It is the same subject matter.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I am sorry dear friend but what you have posted here is not biblical but let me show you why I believe this through the scriptures and Greek texts used. As posted earlier, God's Word does not teach anywhere in the old or new testament scripture that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. That claim is simply unbiblical and goes against the teachings of JESUS and the whole bible. (scripture support here linked)

Your claiming that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about God's 10 commandments being abolished. You were shown through the scriptures in post # 347 linked that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about the "ministration" of the 10 commandments being abolished not the 10 commandments. As shown through the scriptures earlier, the "ministration" of the 10 commandments is "death and condemnation" for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and life and peace and the new birth of God's love written on the heart to love that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself.

In this post you try to argue that Paul did not use the word "abolish" in ROMANS 3:31. Here you are also wrong as the same Greek Word used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 is also used in ROMANS 3:31 and some English translations translate void to "abolish"

Here let's look at the evidence.....

ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Note: the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον ἱστῶμεν

Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7…

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

……………

Note: the same word used in ROMANS 3:31 for abolish is used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations. Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 καταργέω
Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2673: καταργέω
καταργέω, κατάργω; future καταργήσω; 1 aorist κατήργησα; perfect κατήργηκα; passive, present καταργοῦμαι; perfect κατήργημαι; 1 aorist κατηργήθην; 1 future καταργηθήσομαι; causative of the verb ἀργέω, equivalent to ἀργόν (i. e. ἀεργον (on the accent cf. Chandler § 444)) ποιῶ; frequent with Paul, who uses it 25 times (elsewhere in N. T. only twice (Luke, Heb.), in the Sept. 4 times (2 Esdr., see below)); 1. to render idle, unemployed, inactive, inoperative: τήν γῆν, to deprive of its strength, make barren (A. V. cumber), Luke 13:7; to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26; to make void, τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Galatians 3:17; passive Romans 4:14.

2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
: τί, 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 13:11; τόν νόμον, Romans 3:31; Ephesians 2:15; τόν καιρόν τοῦ ἀνόμου, Epistle of Barnabas 15, 5 [ET]; passive πόλεμος καταργεῖται ἐπουρανίων καί ἐπιγείων, Ignatius ad Eph. 13, 2 [ET]; ἵνα καταργηθῇ τό σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, that the body of sin might be done away, i. e. not the material of the body, but the body so far forth as it is an instrument of sin; accordingly, that the body may cease to be an instrument of sin, Romans 6:6. Passive to cease, pass away, be done away: of things, Galatians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 13:8, 10;
2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13f; of persons, followed by ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one (a pregnant construction, cf. Winers Grammar, 621 (577); Buttmann, 322 (277)): ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 5:4 (on the aorist cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 5 b.); ἀπό τοῦ νόμου, Romans 7: (2 (Relz omits τοῦ νόμου)),6. The word is rarely met with in secular authors, as Euripides, Phoen. 753 κατάργειν χερα, to make idle, i. e. to leave the hand unemployed; Polybius quoted in Suidas (s. v. κατηργηκεναι) τούς καιρούς, in the sense of to let slip, leave unused; in the Sept. four times for Chaldean בַּטֵּל, to make to cease, i. e. restrain, check, hinder, 2 Esdr. 4:21, 23 2Esdr. 5:5 2Esdr. 6:8.

.............

So as can be shown above your claims here are not true as the same Greek word is being used for abolish or to do away in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as it is in ROMANS 3:31 "Do we abolish/make void/eliminate the law through faith? God forbid we establish the law." Your interpretation of 2 CORITNTHIANS 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in ROMANS 3:31.

As posted earlier it is the ministration of the 10 commandments that are abolished for the believer which is condemnation and death through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

Sorry dear friend but both the scriptures and the Greek do not agree with you and neither does JESUS here....

MATTHEW 5:17-19 [17], THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFILL. [18], For truly I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE STROKE OR ONE PRONUNCIATION MARK SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. [19], whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Need more scripture? There is too many to post here linked)

...............

ROMANS 7 is showing the difference between the old man and the new. This is what marriage is a metaphor of. We cannot be married to the flesh (old sinful mind) and married to Christ. The old man must first die. Read it together with ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. It is the same subject matter.

Hope this helps.

I have to answer you later it’s late here

“ Romans 7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

“ Romans 7:9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.””

“ Romans 7:13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I have to answer you later it’s late here

“ Romans 7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

“ Romans 7:9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.””

“ Romans 7:13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
No problem,

Perhaps you can start by addressing my last two posts and the scriptures and the Greek that disagree with you? All your doing in this post is changing the topic of discussion again which is simply a distraction to what we were talking about in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 and ROMANS 3:31 and the old and new covenant ministries.

As posted earlier, ROMANS 7 is showing the difference between the old man and the new. This is what marriage is a metaphor of. We cannot be married to the flesh (old sinful mind) and married to Christ. The old man must first die. Read it together with ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. It is the same subject matter.

Once again the scriptures are not talking about the 10 commandments being abolished when PAUL says they are to be established through faith *ROMANS 3:31.

It is death and condemnation (the ministry of the 10 commandments 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7) that is being abolished not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12. See also ROMANS 8:1-4

Something to pray about...

Have a great rest.
 
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The Liturgist

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Another translation reads:
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
The next verse says:
But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

So, it's the spoken Word of God. We believe God still speaks to His Church. Regarding testing the Spirits, why? The Holy Spirit prevents us from making errors of faith. The Bereans were not faithful to the Church, that's why they split from it. They trusted their own authority, rather than the authority Christ gave the Church.

Could you elaborate on the Berean Schism? I feel like many people on this forum could benefit from a more nuanced understanding as to who they were.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Hi Jesse,

So what do you know is the Word of Christ if not through the written Word of God? How did the Bereans *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:11 study to show themselves approved of God if it was not through the written Word *2 TIMOTHY 2:15? It is through the written Word of God which we are to try the Spirits to see if they are of God or not *1 JOHN 4:1, as the spoken Word does not contradict the written Word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God breathed living) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 TIMOTHY 3:16. If the spoken Word of God contradicts the written Word it is because it is not from God. If the Church promotes teachings and traditions that are against the scriptures it is not from God.
We believe that Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Magisterium are the Word of God, and that God STILL speaks to the Church today. Regarding the Bereans, first they heard what Paul had to say. He was knowledgeable in Old Testament Scripture, and used it to show his logic. (Where did I say that the Bible isn't the written word of God? I simply say that Scripture isn't the only word of God). Regarding 2Timothy 2:15, again, the Old Testament.
Of course the spoken word of God can't contradict the written Word of God. Of course, you have to show where the spoken Word contradicts the written Word...But Paul also tells Timothy to pass down the Traditions which Paul had shown Timothy...
 
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Root of Jesse

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There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day of rest. Revelation 1:10 as shown in the OP is in reference to the God's Holy day of rest which is the SABBATH day *MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28 not Sunday according to scripture.
I have said frequently that the Sabbath has not been abolished. We worship Jesus on the Lord's Day, the day they discovered the tomb to be empty, and Jesus to be risen.
 
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BobRyan

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from the OP

The challenge I am putting out there is if you believe Sunday is "the Lord's day" please prove that Sunday or the "first day of the week" is the Lord's day by scripture alone!

We believe that Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Magisterium are the Word of God, and that God STILL speaks to the Church today.

Fine - but the objective for this thread according to the OP is "prove that Sunday or the "first day of the week" is the Lord's day by scripture alone! "

Regarding the Bereans, first they heard what Paul had to say. He was knowledgeable in Old Testament Scripture, and used it to show his logic.

Paul was being outright rejected by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem - "their magisterium" -- so they "Studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

. We worship Jesus on the Lord's Day, the day they discovered the tomb to be empty, .

Did you have a text saying "The Lord's Day - is the Day that they discovered the tomb to be empty"?
 
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