• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Aug 12, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Obviously, people speaking.
     
  2. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Asking forgiveness, and granting it, are how we open healing doors. Remember "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Thanks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +5,777
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Amen -- in fact Christ does not offer any other option for a Christian.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

    Depends, in the beginning there was the spoken Word of God then there is the written Word of God. They are both the Word of God. JESUS was the spoken Word of God who has given us the written Word of God. "All scriptures is God breathed, and the living Word of God and written for our admonition. The spoken Word does not contradict the written Word. Today we are to test the Spirits to see if they are from God or not and to study to show ourselves approved and to be like the faithful Bareans to see what is true and what is not.
     
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    Biblical reasoning is based on scripture. You did not provide any scripture that says Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day" because there is none. If there is please correct me. If not what is it based on?
     
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,591
    Christian
    you said

    “There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED”

    But we read (in the Bible , the KJV)

    Consider your error here

    2 Corinthians 3:7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:...13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    There is no error. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 does not teach anyone of God's 10 commandments are abolished. That interpretation goes pretty much against the whole bible. Read it again. 2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14 is talking about the old and new covenants and the two ministrations of the letter and spirit.

    The ministration of death is condemnation for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and the new birth of God's love written on the heart that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit and to love *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

    Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself. See also HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-34 that defines what the new covenant is.

    It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  8. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Another translation reads:
    Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
    The next verse says:
    But I ask, did they not hear? Certainly they did; for “Their voice has gone forth to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”

    So, it's the spoken Word of God. We believe God still speaks to His Church. Regarding testing the Spirits, why? The Holy Spirit prevents us from making errors of faith. The Bereans were not faithful to the Church, that's why they split from it. They trusted their own authority, rather than the authority Christ gave the Church.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Scripture absolutely tells us that Sunday is the Lord's Day. Scripture does not tell us to worship Saturday only. It says we should love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Catholics do that by discovering the empty tomb every day, but manditorially on Sunday, the day the empty tomb was found (the first day of the week), agreed on in each gospel, and Revelation.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  10. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    But nobody has abolished any of the 10 Commandments.
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    Hi Jesse,

    So what do you know is the Word of Christ if not through the written Word of God? How did the Bereans *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:11 study to show themselves approved of God if it was not through the written Word *2 TIMOTHY 2:15? It is through the written Word of God which we are to try the Spirits to see if they are of God or not *1 JOHN 4:1, as the spoken Word does not contradict the written Word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God breathed living) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 TIMOTHY 3:16. If the spoken Word of God contradicts the written Word it is because it is not from God. If the Church promotes teachings and traditions that are against the scriptures it is not from God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day of rest. Revelation 1:10 as shown in the OP is in reference to the God's Holy day of rest which is the SABBATH day *MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28 not Sunday according to scripture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,591
    Christian
    Hello again,

    I don’t agree with your strange interpretation. Paul clearly is speaking of the tables of stone (Ten Commandments) given time Moses as he says in the verses.
    Also Paul did not use the word “abolish” in Romans 3:31 he said

    Romans 3:31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

    but he did use the word for abolish and done away in 2 Cor 3. According to Paul those who don’t see this have the veil on their heart in reading the Old Testament .

    The word “void” . And the word “abolished is in 2 Cor. There is a subtle difference in context. He is saying that through faith we don’t make Coid the law, but we establish it or the heart of the law which is to live God and our neighbour . All believers are in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes them free from the law of sin and death as Romans 8 says. We are married to another and dead to the law as Romans 7 speaks of. And just as a person can be an adulterer if he marries another while his wife lives a person can spiritually be adulterating if they say they are married to Christ and the law. As Paul showed here

    Romans 7:2. For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    I am sorry dear friend but what you have posted here is not biblical but let me show you why I believe this through the scriptures and Greek texts used. As posted earlier, God's Word does not teach anywhere in the old or new testament scripture that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. That claim is simply unbiblical and goes against the teachings of JESUS and the whole bible. (scripture support here linked)

    Your claiming that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about God's 10 commandments being abolished. You were shown through the scriptures in post # 347 linked that 2 CORINTHIANS 3 is talking about the "ministration" of the 10 commandments being abolished not the 10 commandments. As shown through the scriptures earlier, the "ministration" of the 10 commandments is "death and condemnation" for sin (breaking Gods' commandments) as the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. While the ministration of the Spirit is forgiveness of sin through faith and life and peace and the new birth of God's love written on the heart to love that fulfills Gods' law *ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we are now free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16. Those who are in the Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

    Your interpretation here claiming that God's 10 commandments are abolished has Paul contradicting himself when he says that we do not abolish God's law through faith we establish the law in ROMANS 3:31. If you believe Paul is saying that we abolish the law to establish the law (ROMANS 3:31) then your putting Paul in contradiction with himself.

    In this post you try to argue that Paul did not use the word "abolish" in ROMANS 3:31. Here you are also wrong as the same Greek Word used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 is also used in ROMANS 3:31 and some English translations translate void to "abolish"

    Here let's look at the evidence.....

    ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

    ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

    ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    Note: the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

    ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον ἱστῶμεν

    Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

    ……………

    Note: the same word used in ROMANS 3:31 for abolish is used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations. Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 καταργέω
    Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2673: καταργέω
    καταργέω, κατάργω; future καταργήσω; 1 aorist κατήργησα; perfect κατήργηκα; passive, present καταργοῦμαι; perfect κατήργημαι; 1 aorist κατηργήθην; 1 future καταργηθήσομαι; causative of the verb ἀργέω, equivalent to ἀργόν (i. e. ἀεργον (on the accent cf. Chandler § 444)) ποιῶ; frequent with Paul, who uses it 25 times (elsewhere in N. T. only twice (Luke, Heb.), in the Sept. 4 times (2 Esdr., see below)); 1. to render idle, unemployed, inactive, inoperative: τήν γῆν, to deprive of its strength, make barren (A. V. cumber), Luke 13:7; to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26; to make void, τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Galatians 3:17; passive Romans 4:14.

    2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
    : τί, 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 13:11; τόν νόμον, Romans 3:31; Ephesians 2:15; τόν καιρόν τοῦ ἀνόμου, Epistle of Barnabas 15, 5 [ET]; passive πόλεμος καταργεῖται ἐπουρανίων καί ἐπιγείων, Ignatius ad Eph. 13, 2 [ET]; ἵνα καταργηθῇ τό σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, that the body of sin might be done away, i. e. not the material of the body, but the body so far forth as it is an instrument of sin; accordingly, that the body may cease to be an instrument of sin, Romans 6:6. Passive to cease, pass away, be done away: of things, Galatians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 13:8, 10;
    2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13f; of persons, followed by ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one (a pregnant construction, cf. Winers Grammar, 621 (577); Buttmann, 322 (277)): ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 5:4 (on the aorist cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 5 b.); ἀπό τοῦ νόμου, Romans 7: (2 (Relz omits τοῦ νόμου)),6. The word is rarely met with in secular authors, as Euripides, Phoen. 753 κατάργειν χερα, to make idle, i. e. to leave the hand unemployed; Polybius quoted in Suidas (s. v. κατηργηκεναι) τούς καιρούς, in the sense of to let slip, leave unused; in the Sept. four times for Chaldean בַּטֵּל, to make to cease, i. e. restrain, check, hinder, 2 Esdr. 4:21, 23 2Esdr. 5:5 2Esdr. 6:8.

    .............

    So as can be shown above your claims here are not true as the same Greek word is being used for abolish or to do away in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as it is in ROMANS 3:31 "Do we abolish/make void/eliminate the law through faith? God forbid we establish the law." Your interpretation of 2 CORITNTHIANS 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in ROMANS 3:31.

    As posted earlier it is the ministration of the 10 commandments that are abolished for the believer which is condemnation and death through faith not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12 and give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20.

    Sorry dear friend but both the scriptures and the Greek do not agree with you and neither does JESUS here....

    MATTHEW 5:17-19 [17], THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFILL. [18], For truly I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE STROKE OR ONE PRONUNCIATION MARK SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. [19], whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    (Need more scripture? There is too many to post here linked)

    ...............

    ROMANS 7 is showing the difference between the old man and the new. This is what marriage is a metaphor of. We cannot be married to the flesh (old sinful mind) and married to Christ. The old man must first die. Read it together with ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. It is the same subject matter.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  15. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,591
    Christian
    I have to answer you later it’s late here

    Romans 7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

    Romans 7:9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.””

    Romans 7:13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,670
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    No problem,

    Perhaps you can start by addressing my last two posts and the scriptures and the Greek that disagree with you? All your doing in this post is changing the topic of discussion again which is simply a distraction to what we were talking about in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 and ROMANS 3:31 and the old and new covenant ministries.

    As posted earlier, ROMANS 7 is showing the difference between the old man and the new. This is what marriage is a metaphor of. We cannot be married to the flesh (old sinful mind) and married to Christ. The old man must first die. Read it together with ROMANS 6 and ROMANS 8. It is the same subject matter.

    Once again the scriptures are not talking about the 10 commandments being abolished when PAUL says they are to be established through faith *ROMANS 3:31.

    It is death and condemnation (the ministry of the 10 commandments 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7) that is being abolished not God's 10 commandments that Paul says are holy, just and good *ROMANS 7:12. See also ROMANS 8:1-4

    Something to pray about...

    Have a great rest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  17. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

    +1,190
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    Could you elaborate on the Berean Schism? I feel like many people on this forum could benefit from a more nuanced understanding as to who they were.
     
  18. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    We believe that Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Magisterium are the Word of God, and that God STILL speaks to the Church today. Regarding the Bereans, first they heard what Paul had to say. He was knowledgeable in Old Testament Scripture, and used it to show his logic. (Where did I say that the Bible isn't the written word of God? I simply say that Scripture isn't the only word of God). Regarding 2Timothy 2:15, again, the Old Testament.
    Of course the spoken word of God can't contradict the written Word of God. Of course, you have to show where the spoken Word contradicts the written Word...But Paul also tells Timothy to pass down the Traditions which Paul had shown Timothy...
     
  19. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    +3,477
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I have said frequently that the Sabbath has not been abolished. We worship Jesus on the Lord's Day, the day they discovered the tomb to be empty, and Jesus to be risen.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +5,777
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    from the OP

    Fine - but the objective for this thread according to the OP is "prove that Sunday or the "first day of the week" is the Lord's day by scripture alone! "

    Paul was being outright rejected by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem - "their magisterium" -- so they "Studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

    10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

    Did you have a text saying "The Lord's Day - is the Day that they discovered the tomb to be empty"?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...