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WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Aug 12, 2020.

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  1. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Where does it say that "the teaching of the Church, the Magisterium, is by nature, the Word of God"? The Word of God is the (infallible) Bible, not something made up by the Catholic church.
     
  2. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

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    Luke 24:45
    the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures." Christ told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church in all Truth. The Holy Spirit does just that. He guides the Church to teach Truth.
    The key to understanding Scripture, from the Catechism:

    109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

    110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

    111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

    The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

    112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

    The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80
    113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

    114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

    The senses of Scripture

    115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

    116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

    117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

    1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

    2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85

    3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

    118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

    The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
    The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
    119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
    But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    If we use the author's definition of "God's Word" and compare it to your "not the Bible but some OTHER word of God" (in your "Bible isn't the only Word of God" statement) --then maybe you are both in agreement on at least one point.

    Namely that "the CHANGE" comes about not from the Bible as the Word of God - but rather from what you call some OTHER Word of God, which is what many would call "NOT the Word of God but rather tradition outside of the Bible" - and is one of the main points the author of the OP is trying to make.

    There are "other" threads here that discuss how much outside tradition should be accepted as "The Word of God" - but for the sake of the context of this thread - it seems that the main point is that the tradition of "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" does not come from the Bible.

    For the sake of clarity - if you are going to change definitions and context switch in the middle of the thread - then you need to say so -- otherwise there readers are taking the context of the OP saying that only the Bible is going to be used to answer the question in the OP.

    You are free to say "Well I can't show this from the Bible, but I can show it from other documents that I personally believe are also like the Bible, the Word of God". (Or however you wish to clarify that point).

    Because in that "not in the Bible" regard - you are both saying the same thing.

    You and the other Catholic sources quoted are already on record on this thread using the "was changed" statements.

    As I already showed here -



    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    you have already admitted that the change is not found in the Bible - which is all that is needed for the subject of this thread. The added subject of just how/when/why do some groups consider Catholic tradition to "also be inspired" is another topic. Though it is reasonable for you to say that you value that as your source to show that week-day-1 is the Lord's Day and that you don't mind the fact that this statement is not in the actual Bible.

    The texts that I quoted show how they claim this "not in the Bible" fact makes an even stronger case for tradition - since it is a well accepted practice among both Catholics and non-Catholics that only has for its justification - the Catholic traditions.
     
  5. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

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    Changing the day of worship, which is not prescribed in the commandment, is not changing anything. By Tradition, the Jews worshiped on the Sabbath. I don't care what you cherrypicked out of some ages old yellow-paged book. We worship on Sunday because it's the day that the empty tomb was found, the day of the Resurrection. If you don't want to worship on that day, which is documented in Scripture, thus meeting the requirement of the OP, then don't worship on that day. And I gave one scripture reference in each gospel to show where it comes from.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. Changing is changing.
    2. The commandment is very specific about "the day" -- "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10

    You are saying "changing"

    your own documents say it was "changed" and that the change cannot be found in the Bible.

    Lev 23:2-3 makes it clear that it is a "day of holy convocation" -- Ex 20 and Lev 23 are written at the same time and given to the same readers.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    A quote from some random post on this thread would be "the old yellow pages book" - the quotes I gave are not from that sort of source.

    CCC

    " 2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man ought to "rest" and should let others especially the poor, "be refreshed." the Sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is the day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.


    " 2173 the Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of the day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: ' the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.' with compassion, Christ declares the Sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God. ' the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.' "

    Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment (numbered 3 by Roman Catholics).

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...nts/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html


    Dies Domini pt 11

    "the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".


    Dies Domini pt 13 -

    "the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


    Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."




    The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
    The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
    (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

    "we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it..

    2. is it your claim that "some OTHER Word of God" was "Changed" and not the Bible?

    3. If your argument is that "it is not in the Bible rather it is in some OTHER Word of God that we find that Sunday is the Lord's Day" -- then it may be you are in agreement with at least part of the OP.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You gave one scripture reference from each gospel showing/proving that none of them said "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" or "week-day-1 is our new day of rest and worship" or ....
     
  9. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    What are all these bold numbers?
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Actually faith is based on God's Word *ROMANS 10:17 according to the scriptures. So after all that you have written here wouldn't it be easier to state you have no scripture to support your view?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That's how the Catechism and other Catholic documents tend to number paragraphs
     
  12. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    So by the way, the premise of this thread is fundamentally in error.

    The Seventh Day is the Great Sabbath, on which our Lord reposed in the Tomb.
    He rose on the First Day, or rather, in another sense, on the mystical Eighth Day of Creation, which is why Paschal Vigil services happen at midnight, to symbolize the electrifying excitement of the period before the dawn of the World to Come.

    So, it is meet and proper that Christians worship on both the First and Seventh Days. On the Seventh Day, the repose of our Lord in the Tomb should be remembered, and the Seventh Day is an ideal time for general memorial liturgies to commemorate all of our loved ones who have reposed and are awaiting the Resurrection.

    On the First Day, the most joyful day of worship, the Day of the Resurrection, we commemorate the initial Creation, and the re-Creation of the World, as noted in Genesis 1 and John 1, and the Resurrection of our Lord.

    And on the Sixth Day, the most solemn day of worship, we commemorate the making of Man in the image of God, and the remaking of Man in the image of God through the death of the incarnate Word of God on the Cross. It is no coincidence that our Lord was crucified on the same day Man was created. “It is finished” I believe refers to His act of re-creation.

    Thursday is also a very solemn and important day of worship, because it was on Thursday that our Lord had the Last Supper with His disciples, and it was on Thursday that He ascended into Heaven.

    Monday is also of extreme importance; we celebrate Pentecost on Whitsunday, but the actual events of Pentecost happened on Monday, since Monday is the actual day of Pentecost.

    There is also great theological importance in the third and fourth day of creation. Wednesday and Friday are the two traditional days of fasting in the Church, a practice not only observed by Eastern Christians, but also by the early Methodists; John Wesley further desired that Methodists gather in church on Wednesday and Friday to pray the Great Litany from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
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  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    As I understand it - those are the points where everyone agrees. So that is not an error in the OP..if there is one.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Christians can worship on Tuesday or Wednesday or Sunday etc .. as they please.

    The question for this thread is about the Bible and the "Lord's day" being Sunday or not according to the Bible.
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Liturgist, nice to meet you. According to the bible "the seventh day" of the week is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God *EXODUS 20:8-11. That is what the bible says. There is no error in the OP. The OP is asking for scripture alone to prove that "Sunday or the first day of the week" as it is called within scripture is "the Lords day" that John was in the Spirit of in Revelation 1:10. There is no scripture linking Revelation 1:10 to "Sunday of the first day of the week according to the scriptures. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

    God bless.
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I think it is the Catholic Catechism pescador. Some put it in place of the bible.
     
  17. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    After reading all of this legalistic stuff I am glad I am a non-denominational Protestant! All of this is the creation of a new law; Jesus died to free us from the law.
     
  18. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    It saddens me no end that people put the Catholic Catechism in place of the Bible, which is the Word of God in written form.

    "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book." Revelation 22:18
     
  19. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

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    One non-authoritative source says changing, and you believe it, but when Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood..." it's symbolism. I see.
    Those aren't my own documents, they're not authoritative. And I have given you Biblical reasoning for making the worship of Jesus on Sunday.
     
  20. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

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    And so it is, still.
    And so we should never fail to respect the holiness of the day.
    Yes, now talk about change, Protestants changed the numbering of the 10 Commandments...But it is rooted in the 10 Commandments. We worship God, in the person of Christ, on Sunday. The commandment is to worship God.
    And so we should rest, as God did, on the Sabbath. And then we (Christians) worship the empty tomb on Sunday, as the Gospels tell us.
    Where have we changed anything in the Bible, Bob? Nowhere. The seventh day is the Sabbath. WHAT PART OF MY AGREEMENT WITH YOU DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??? We worship the Lord on Sunday. The day He rose.
     
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