Why support the nation of Israel?

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buzuxi02

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From what I read in the Bible I believe this is the end time Israel nation spoken about by the prophets....it is Scripture that convinces me.

Also the scale of what has happened concerning present day Israel fits in with prophecy, and the miraculous nature of events and the preservation of Israel all add weight to my present conviction....it goes beyond a man-made attempt at restoration.


Not sure why you believe this, its currently a secular state, and the two state solution being pushed internationally calls for a divided city of Jerusalem as a palestinian/arab/muslim capital.


Well I believe G-d cares...Israel is the place where He has chosen to reveal Himself and His glory to mankind...the Jews are the people that He not only chose to show His glory to the world, but actually formed as a nation for Himself...and it is to Israel and Jerusalem that Jesus is going to return.


I guess here is where we differ somewhat. Yes, he has chosen the jews to reveal his glory to the world. But since he has already done that in Christ, the nation has become obselete. Through them the messiah came, and they fullfilled their role to the world.

For us, he will return for Israel his Church. Though we do believe the antichrist willl decieve the jews presenting himself as their long awaited messiah and set up a palace on the temple mount.

So I think present day Israel should be a wake up call to Christians that G-d is working, that He has not forgotten the Jewish people that they are at the centre of His plans and that they along with the Church are included in making His glory known throughout the earth in these last days which I believe we are living in.


The jews have always believed in an earthly kingdom and have always rejected the Messiah of the NT. As Christ taught, 'My Kingdom is not of this world'. He withered the fig tree overnight, foreshadowng the decades long withering away of the hebrew nation which came to fruition with the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. and finally the destruction of Jerusalem in the early 2nd century.

It is inconceivable that Christians should not understand the heart of G-d for His people Israel, how He longs for them to return to Him and wants to bless and establish them in righteousness...their failure to recognize Him has meant such blessing for us Gentiles...we are supposed to provoke them to jealousy when they see what they have missed out on, but I am afraid most of what they see in the Church is not very pleasant.


Yes, he longs for them to return but that wont happen until the false messiah is revealed. At the times of tribulation many jews (and muslims) willl finally accept Jesus the Christ, recognizing the deception and fraud of the lawless one.

Those who are last will be first, and those who are first will be last. The first people to hear the gospel will be the last to recieve it. This is what Orthodox eschatology believes and teaches. But Political Israel is just that, a temporary jewish homeland till there exiled again, as history has shown over and over.

Sorry for the lack of reverence, but even the jews attempted to make the island of Cyprus their new homeland because it was so much better. Whether the Kitsos war or Theofore Herzl's original plan to occupy it. Palestine/ Israel whatever you want to call it, is not so much a promised Land but God's punching bag. You cant rewrite history, and history shows whoever lives there has a death wish, its masochism to believe it. Now if we were speaking for Hawaii or some other exotic locale you may have some credibility. But it just happens that the desert is at the crossroads, the center of the three continents and was ideal for the messiah to be born there and to start evangelizing the world from the center on out. When 'the fullness of time came' Jesus was born, which was the ideal time for the evangelization to begin. After that its significance came to an end.
 
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Zeek

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Not sure why you believe this, its currently a secular state, and the two state solution being pushed internationally calls for a divided city of Jerusalem as a palestinian/arab/muslim capital.

Because of time restrictions I often don't quote sources or give numerous biblical references, but I will always do so if asked. In this instance it is my general understanding from reading in particular, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos and Zechariah, also Romans, Galatians and Hebrews..,everything points to there being a specific period of time during Israels hardening, where the Gentiles are gathered in...but as that time draws to a conclusion, then Israel will be re-ignited and re-awakened as G-d turns His focus to their re-grafting into their natural Olive tree.

I guess here is where we differ somewhat. Yes, he has chosen the jews to reveal his glory to the world. But since he has already done that in Christ, the nation has become obselete. Through them the messiah came, and they fullfilled their role to the world.

Can you honestly say in reading your Bible that this is the impression you get...that the Jewish nation has become obselete? Doesn't Paul specifically talk in Romans that G-d has not given up on them, and that because of the Fathers, and for His own sake, He will not forget them?

For us, he will return for Israel his Church. Though we do believe the antichrist willl decieve the jews presenting himself as their long awaited messiah and set up a palace on the temple mount.

Yes He will return for His Church made up of both Jew and Gentile...I believe the Israel of G-d is representative of those blood related to Abraham who are also of the faith of Abraham...I don't believe in spiritualising it as a pseudonym for the Church, and I don't believe the one biblical reference gives a clear enough reason to do this.

The jews have always believed in an earthly kingdom and have always rejected the Messiah of the NT. As Christ taught, 'My Kingdom is not of this world'. He withered the fig tree overnight, foreshadowng the decades long withering away of the hebrew nation which came to fruition with the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. and finally the destruction of Jerusalem in the early 2nd century.

I believe the Jewish people have always believed in an earthly kingdom because in the past they saw glimpses of it operating faithfully under the reign of certain leaders and kings, and they saw G-d operating directly through the prophets, in the Temple and so on...but as years went by and their Scriptures expanded they also saw the promise of something more glorious and more sustainable, and also incorporating the Land and Jerusalem.

Ultimately we know there will be a Heavenly Jerusalem...but prior to that there are going to be some amazing changes to the land of Israel and to this earthly kingdom eventually ruled by Messiah, all the nations of the world are going to come annually. Israel is still the focus.

Yes, he longs for them to return but that wont happen until the false messiah is revealed. At the times of tribulation many jews (and muslims) willl finally accept Jesus the Christ, recognizing the deception and fraud of the lawless one.

Masses of Moslems are turning to the L-rd right now, and more Jews believe in Jesus as Messiah than at any time since those first few hundred years...but yes I believe there will come a time when the Jewish people will turn as a nation to their Messiah...and the terrible thing is that it will be the nations that have hated Israel and gathered against her that will cause this to happen as G-d Himself intervenes.

This is why I believe it is so important for Christians to get in line with what G-d is in the process of accomplishing, and not to turn against Israel, or disbelieve that G-d is for them despite some of the unbelief, and the errors they make as a nation...it doesn't mean blind allegiance, or papering over the cracks...it means that we learn to love the Jewish people as we understand the Fathers heart towards them...it is not based on politics, religion or demography, but a personal understanding of how G-d loves them that trancends every bias and theological aberration.
Those who are last will be first, and those who are first will be last. The first people to hear the gospel will be the last to recieve it. This is what Orthodox eschatology believes and teaches. But Political Israel is just that, a temporary jewish homeland till there exiled again, as history has shown over and over.

I don't believe this is the case at all...it is not just political Israel...it incorporates the eccletic amalgam of the Jewish people across the spectrum of beliefs and ethnic origins, all congregating once again in the land of their forefathers and making that land flourish.

Sorry for the lack of reverence, but even the jews attempted to make the island of Cyprus their new homeland because it was so much better. Whether the Kitsos war or Theofore Herzl's original plan to occupy it. Palestine/ Israel whatever you want to call it, is not so much a promised Land but God's punching bag. You cant rewrite history, and history shows whoever lives there has a death wish, its masochism to believe it. Now if we were speaking for Hawaii or some other exotic locale you may have some credibility. But it just happens that the desert is at the crossroads, the center of the three continents and was ideal for the messiah to be born there and to start evangelizing the world from the center on out. When 'the fullness of time came' Jesus was born, which was the ideal time for the evangelization to begin. After that its significance came to an end.

What can I say? I believe you are mistaken, or have been wrongly taught on this issue...Israel is not finished in the plans of G-d, surely you can see the focus of world attention is upon it, and it will be the place where the final plans of G-d for all of us will be played out.
 
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Zeek

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I said you need extra Biblical sources, or all that this is gonna turn into is a Scripture war. you have to show that you are reading the Bible correctly, and not just saying stuff and stating that it is clear

I realise that, but several other people have joined the thread and I feel compelled to respond. My friend Gxg has also posted a lot of information, comment and Scripture that covers an awful lot of ground and seeks to present the various possible schools of thought concerning the nature of present day Israel, and in a way has pre-empted some of what I was going to look at with you, but it could be helpful in providing a reference point.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I realise that, but several other people have joined the thread and I feel compelled to respond. My friend Gxg has also posted a lot of information, comment and Scripture that covers an awful lot of ground and seeks to present the various possible schools of thought concerning the nature of present day Israel, and in a way has pre-empted some of what I was going to look at with you, but it could be helpful in providing a reference point.

I gotcha, just throwing that out there. I await your evidence
 
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Zeek

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I gotcha, just throwing that out there. I await your evidence

I don't know how to 'bump' a post Matt, but I have added to the one that is a page back from here, and hope to try and look at things in a logical and friendly manner, without getting gummed up with huge sections of dialogue or quotes. So if you give a reply I will take it from there etc.,

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ArmyMatt said....so again, what evidence do you have to show that how you read Israel's rebirth in the Bible is the real way, and that Christians should theologically support Israel?
Zazal replied...No worries, I will go through it bit by bit, and where you think I am jumping the gun or bringing a wrong understanding, no doubt you can show me why.
Ok I will do this bit by bit, and not make the replies long-winded or reference intensive...mostly because I don't have the time and because I don't think it lends itself to the sort of interaction we are involved in here.

So in 1947 Israel was declared a nation, but actually rose from the ashes on May 14th 1948 and won its independence after battling it out with the surrounding Arab nations all intent on its destruction...lets consider if there is any significance to this event.

In order to do this we have to consider the biblical passages that refer to a regathering of the Jewish people in Israel, and see if historically this expectation was also considered from within Christendom.

My first question then has to be... Is it reasonable to believe from Scripture that Israel will re-emerge as a physical nation, and in light of this, does the 1948 new State of Israel possibly qualify?

I would like to keep the dialogue short and succinct wherever possible...thanks.
 
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Mikeb85

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There is no theological reason to support Israel, but in a purely pragmatic sense, it is preferable to have the state of Israel as it stands now than an Arab government in charge. That being said, Israel needs to be held accountable to the rest of the world for some of it's clearly illegal practices.

There's no viable leadership in the West Bank, Israel should just annex it, extend rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, and get it over with. Arabs and Jews can live together, at least as well as Muslims can with their rival sects (in Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere, you can see just how well Muslims get along with other Muslims...).

Israel has treated the Church in a less than ideal manner, and many of the oppressed Palestinians are Christians, but it's very doubtful an Arab government would be much better (for proof, witness the treatment of Christians in Egypt)...
 
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ArmyMatt

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My first question then has to be... Is it reasonable to believe from Scripture that Israel will re-emerge as a physical nation, and in light of this, does the 1948 new State of Israel possibly qualify?

it is reasonable to believe that was predicted, yes. this does not mean, however, that the Israel of God is the Israel in the Middle East. what must be shown is that the Jewish nation IS the Israel of God after the Messiah.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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There is no theological reason to support Israel, but in a purely pragmatic sense, it is preferable to have the state of Israel as it stands now than an Arab government in charge. That being said, Israel needs to be held accountable to the rest of the world for some of it's clearly illegal practices.

There's no viable leadership in the West Bank, Israel should just annex it, extend rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, and get it over with. Arabs and Jews can live together, at least as well as Muslims can with their rival sects (in Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere, you can see just how well Muslims get along with other Muslims...).

Israel has treated the Church in a less than ideal manner, and many of the oppressed Palestinians are Christians, but it's very doubtful an Arab government would be much better (for proof, witness the treatment of Christians in Egypt)...
The issue for ethnic Israel, in many ways, does not have to do with a covenantal condition-meeting which presupposes its legitimacy as a collective entity - but with a failure to recognize the Christ (Messiah) who fulfilled all God’s promises to Israel at His first coming:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people (Luke 1:68)
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins (Acts.5:31)."
Today's Israel, a tiny nation forced to balance their own national security, is not doomed by its covenant-breaking alone but by its denial and hatred for the Lord Jesus. And in many ways, till that is addressed, their national security, accordingly, is hopeless because their very existence testifies to an abiding hostility to the Gospel:
4 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. For the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:16)
Individual Jews, thankfully, will be brought into the blood-bought Israel of God by the wonderful grace of the Lord - but they will not, however, be saved by applying the national presumption (whether dispensational or reformed or anything else) that an Israel-after-the-flesh has survived, somehow, the destruction of the temple abandoned by God...and the reality that a nation without the Lord ruling is a hopeless nation.

In regards to the Israeli government itself, there are some things which could be done instanteously to promote a lot of significant change - and sadly, as people are people, change takes times ..and thus, there should be no surprise that Israel does what it does anymore than there's surprise over what occurred in other nations when they were going through development/not having the best foundation - regardless of any reasons for their foundation which may've seemed sympathetic. Automatically having an Arab-run government wouldn't solve anything (more shared in #356 , #247 , #249 ,#251 , #254 )- but neither can things be solved with the current government doing as they do.



For a good review on the issue from one Jewish individual critiquing the nation:
From Jewish Voice for Peace, who put together this outstanding video, explaining the basic elements of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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what must be shown is that the Jewish nation IS the Israel of God after the Messiah.
Good point to jump from when it comes to showing Israel.
 
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Zeek

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Zazal---My first question then has to be... Is it reasonable to believe from Scripture that Israel will re-emerge as a physical nation, and in light of this, does the 1948 new State of Israel possibly qualify?

ArmyMatt---it is reasonable to believe that was predicted, yes. this does not mean, however, that the Israel of God is the Israel in the Middle East. what must be shown is that the Jewish nation IS the Israel of God after the Messiah.

Ok so we are agreed that the Bible foretells the physical Jewish nation of Israel will one day re-emerge...unless you are implying the mere spiritualizing of physical Israel into all those that believe, and do not see that physical Israel has a part to play in the plans of G-d in these latter days?

Can we also agree that it will not re-emerge in the US, Africa or China, but will be in the land of Canaan, the land of their Fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Also...do you think that generally the Church...[all Believers..henceforth I will take it that you understand that by Church I am referring to all of us who have trusted in the L-rd Jesus for salvation, and am not referencing any particular brand of Believer...just those washed in the blood]...has had a comprehensive understanding of how or when this might occur, or do you think it is fair to say it has never been a major focus?


 
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Adaephon

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http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-sarcastically-asks-how-israel-afforded-such,31750/


JERUSALEM--While touring Israel's "Iron Dome" all-weather missile defense system Wednesday, President Barack Obama sarcastically asked Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu where he got all the money to build such technologically advanced equipment.

Brilliant piece by the onion showing how over the top out unreasonable support of Israel is. I'd love something like this to actually happen. :) it could end the hemorrhage of my taxes to subsidizing Israel and their illegal occupation of Palestinian land.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok so we are agreed that the Bible foretells the physical Jewish nation of Israel will one day re-emerge...unless you are implying the mere spiritualizing of physical Israel into all those that believe, and do not see that physical Israel has a part to play in the plans of G-d in these latter days?


part of God's plan does not mean that they are still the chosen nation. Babylon, Egypt, and Rome were all part of God's plan, and they were never the chosen.

Can we also agree that it will not re-emerge in the US, Africa or China, but will be in the land of Canaan, the land of their Fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

this also has nothing to do with them being chosen, since Abraham was declared righteous before the covenant was established. by rejecting Christ, they reject the God of their fathers and any blessings that come with that.

Also...do you think that generally the Church...[all Believers..henceforth I will take it that you understand that by Church I am referring to all of us who have trusted in the L-rd Jesus for salvation, and am not referencing any particular brand of Believer...just those washed in the blood]...has had a comprehensive understanding of how or when this might occur, or do you think it is fair to say it has never been a major focus?

never been a major focus because after Pentecost, the Israel of God has been seen as the Church.
 
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Zeek

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Zazal---Ok so we are agreed that the Bible foretells the physical Jewish nation of Israel will one day re-emerge...unless you are implying the mere spiritualizing of physical Israel into all those that believe, and do not see that physical Israel has a part to play in the plans of G-d in these latter days?


ArmyMatt---part of God's plan does not mean that they are still the chosen nation. Babylon, Egypt, and Rome were all part of God's plan, and they were never the chosen.


Right...I am determined to get to foundational level with this and try to build from there.

Can you show me in the Bible where and when the Jewish people were called 'chosen' by G-d, and when He unchose them as a 'unique' nation.

Because if I understand you correctly you agree they were once the chosen nation, but are no longer the same chosen nation.


Can we also agree that it will not re-emerge in the US, Africa or China, but will be in the land of Canaan, the land of their Fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?​
this also has nothing to do with them being chosen, since Abraham was declared righteous before the covenant was established. by rejecting Christ, they reject the God of their fathers and any blessings that come with that.


How very odd....I am not trying to discuss at the moment their spiritual state and whether or not they accept the Messiah, but trying to establish that it is once again to the physical nation of Israel that world focus returns, and that this is pre-determined by G-d through numerous prophetic passages.

Also...do you think that generally the Church...[all Believers..henceforth I will take it that you understand that by Church I am referring to all of us who have trusted in the L-rd Jesus for salvation, and am not referencing any particular brand of Believer...just those washed in the blood]...has had a comprehensive understanding of how or when this might occur, or do you think it is fair to say it has never been a major focus?​
never been a major focus because after Pentecost, the Israel of God has been seen as the Church.


Precisely what I have been trying to expose.

IMHO this is the 'foundational' stumbling block within large elements of those that make up the Church, and surely stems from a teaching that usurps the position of the Jewish people and annuls the prophetic Scriptures that run contrary to this teaching.

If you or others are taught such a thing at ground level it is no wonder that even with the miraculous re-emergence of Israel in 1948 you will not see it as a sign to the nations or the hand of G-d at work to demonstrate His power and His purposes in and through the little nation of Israel...therefore you will cling to a doctrine that opposes such a notion out of loyalty and faith which in this case means the teachings of Orthodoxy.

Therefore the crux of the issue is whether or not what you have been taught is correct, and presumably this has its roots in the teachings of those who are known as the Church Fathers.

For myself my understanding is based solely on Scripture, I have no particular leaning to any specific teachings within the Church, and certainly not the teachings of Hagee and others, although apparently what I believe about present day Israel is covered to some extent by some of what they propound.

This being the case...how flexible are you as an individual to re-considering your position regarding Israel, and being persuaded by Scripture that what you have been taught is incorrect...or do you believe that what you have received has the seal of infallibility?

I need to know in order to see how to progress with this thread as you have asked me to demonstrate how I know I am reading Scripture correctly concerning Israel.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Can you show me in the Bible where and when the Jewish people were called 'chosen' by G-d, and when He unchose them as a 'unique' nation.

Because if I understand you correctly you agree they were once the chosen nation, but are no longer the same chosen nation.

because they were chosen to bring forth the Messiah, and Christ has come

This being the case...how flexible are you as an individual to re-considering your position regarding Israel, and being persuaded by Scripture that what you have been taught is incorrect...or do you believe that what you have received has the seal of infallibility?

none, because the Fathers are pretty clear on who Israel is

How very odd....I am not trying to discuss at the moment their spiritual state and whether or not they accept the Messiah, but trying to establish that it is once again to the physical nation of Israel that world focus returns, and that this is pre-determined by G-d through numerous prophetic passages.


even if they were the geographic focal point, that does not mean the blessings are back on them, since they rejected the God that blessed them to begin with.

For myself my understanding is based solely on Scripture, I have no particular leaning to any specific teachings within the Church, and certainly not the teachings of Hagee and others, although apparently what I believe about present day Israel is covered to some extent by some of what they propound.

no, you base it on how you read Scripture, with no way to know if you are reading it correctly
 
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Zeek

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no, you base it on how you read Scripture, with no way to know if you are reading it correctly

I will get back to your other responses, but just briefly tell me how anyone knows if they are reading Scripture correctly...what criteria do you consider necessary and acceptable and how do you affirm this?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I will get back to your other responses, but just briefly tell me how anyone knows if they are reading Scripture correctly...what criteria do you consider necessary and acceptable and how do you affirm this?

well, you have to look at when and how the Scripture was put together. there were a lot of early books floating around that were weird and very wrong, so I would say look into the context of the Bible coming together as the Bible. because clearly, one cannot just read it on their own and assume they are listening to the Holy Spirit, because we all read it and say radically different things, some of which are very important.
 
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Adaephon

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http://www.karlremarks.com/2013/03/its-ever-so-simple-tribal-map-of-middle.html#more

The Jews

The Jews are also known as the Hebrews, the Israelites, and the Zionists, which makes it easier to evade people who lent them money. They are one of the smallest but best armed tribes of the Middle East, thanks to their links to the powerful North Atlantic Tribal Alliance and its head Hussein Obama. The relationship between the two is a tad too cosy and has been described by political scientists as ‘bizarre’, ‘inexplicable’ and ‘a bit gay’, due to incessant public proclamations of eternal love.

The vast majority of Jews in the Middle East are not originally from there. They escaped from ghetto life in Europe by moving to the region and living in an, er, large ghetto. Most of their tribal leaders are chosen from the ranks of the military, a fact that we won’t comment on.

Thought this might generate a chuckle. :)
 
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Adaephon

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http://www.karlremarks.com/2013/03/its-ever-so-simple-tribal-map-of-middle.html#more

The Jews

The Jews are also known as the Hebrews, the Israelites, and the Zionists, which makes it easier to evade people who lent them money. They are one of the smallest but best armed tribes of the Middle East, thanks to their links to the powerful North Atlantic Tribal Alliance and its head Hussein Obama. The relationship between the two is a tad too cosy and has been described by political scientists as ‘bizarre’, ‘inexplicable’ and ‘a bit gay’, due to incessant public proclamations of eternal love.

The vast majority of Jews in the Middle East are not originally from there. They escaped from ghetto life in Europe by moving to the region and living in an, er, large ghetto. Most of their tribal leaders are chosen from the ranks of the military, a fact that we won’t comment on.

Thought this might generate a chuckle. :)
 
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