Why support the nation of Israel?

[Zeek]

Let us make a few comparisons then:

Hitler walled the Jews into ghettos allowing very little in and very little out and also devastated the local economy.
Israel walled the Palestinians allowing very little in and very little out while also devastating the local economy. Just see the movie "Lemon Tree".

So here we go...the ultimate insult to those who died at the hands of the Nazis.

There is no comparison. Israel has been forced to construct the security barrier to stop some of those amongst the Palestinian Arabs from committing acts of murder against Israelis...it has stopped 90% of suicide bombers. I

Israelis and Arabs alike hate the wretched thing, and Israel will take it down at the drop of a hat if the Palestinians will stop murdering innocent people.

Hitler seized Jewish homes and destroyed them with impunity.
Israel continues to seize Palestinian homes, destroy them with impunity and, to add insult to injury, charges Palestinians for the destruction of the homes.

That is not true. In fact Israel has laws in place that makes it illegal to do such a thing. The exceptions are when the houses that are constructed are illegal, when they are forced to clear an area for security reasons, and sometimes as a reponse to the house-owners taking part in violence against Israeli citizens. Compensation is always given to people when it infringes their human rights as citizens.

Hitler destroyed countless synagogues.
Israel continues to deface mosques and churches. In fact during last year's Gazan expedition Israel destroyed one of the last remaining Orthodox churches in Gaza.

Not true.

I would like to know which Orthodox church building Israel destroyed in Gaza...they do not deliberately target church buildings but sometimes there is collateral damage when they target terrorists hiding in various places. Nor do they deliberately target mosques. Israel had over 50 of its synagogues systematically destroyed when Judea and Samaria was under Jordanian occupation.

Hitler allowed his cronies to walk into a village and execute with impunity without allowing the Red Cross into the area.
In Jenin, the Israelis executed 500+ Palestinians, demolished homes with children, elderly and physically disabled in them, and shot upon the Red Cross who tried to get in. In this same place the Israelis crushed the bodies of Palestinians with their bulldozers.

That is utter fabrication and a propaganda lie...I'm beginning to suspect you collude with Hamas or Fatah, as it is the sort of tripe they come out with and swear blind it is the truth...eventually the Palestinians admitted that 56 were killed at Jenin...I don't expect any of your fellow Orthodox believers will jump in and correct you or deplore your attempt at a perverse historical narrative...which is a pity because such a foul attempt at besmirching Israel deserves contempt from everyone.

Hitler allowed his people to rape and humiliate Jews.
Israeli soldiers have raped Palestinians, they have stripped old men to the nude and forced them to walk in front of their entire community. They have also forced Palestinian women, including the married, to do the same.

I think you have been exposed as a liar, and this just adds to it.

If such a thing ever occured it would not be white-washed, but condemned and those involved given the severest of punishments.

Hitler violated internationally agreed upon borders to suite his needs and lead German colonization efforts.
Israel violated the Green Line of 1967 by building the Wall of Apartheid and continues to colonize Palestine with thugs who harass, steal from and shot upon the Palestinian people.

The Green line has never been formalised, and Israel is allowed to have secure borders.

Do you really want me to continue?

No, I think you have contributed quite enough...I could get more factual information from reading a comic book.

 

[Adaephon]

I'm beginning to suspect you collude with Hamas or Fatah, as it is the sort of tripe they come out with and

Let's stop feeding the troll. This may be a debate forum, but I don't think we should tolerate people who come in here, can't back up their claims, and respond to our disagreement and criticism with insane McCarthyistic accusations of supporting a terrorist organization.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ask the people of the town of Taybeh, the last complete Christian town in that area, how untrue EC is

 

[Zeek]

Let's stop feeding the troll. This may be a debate forum, but I don't think we should tolerate people who come in here, can't back up their claims, and respond to our disagreement and criticism with insane McCarthyistic accusations of supporting a terrorist organization.

I am not a troll at all...but that makes things easy for you to just shoot out accusations, I well remember your anti-Semitic statements else where, it is not surprising that this is your attitude.

 

[Adaephon]

I well remember your anti-Semitic statements else where,

The ones where I say the Jews aren't the chosen people?

 

[Zeek]

ask the people of the town of Taybeh, the last complete Christian town in that area, how untrue EC is

No, rather than putting up a smokescreen and excusing his ridiculous mis-information that was debunked shortly after the events concerning Jenin took place and admitted to by the Palestinians who realised their outrageous claims had actually back-fired...why not discover for yourself why his version of events is wrong.

I have before me the book written in the aftermath of the incursion called 'Searching Jenin' edited by Ramzy Baroud with a preface by Noam Chomsky....at the end of the book the name of every Palestinian killed is there for all to see...grand total of 63.

Also Israeli troops didn't just enter Jenin to shoot up innocent people, they went to put an end to the bomb factories that were supplying terrorists with explosives to murder and maim civilians....and in trying to restrict the number of casualties by carefully going house to house a group of soldiers were killed in a planned booby trap and in all 23 Israeli soldiers lost their lives...most other countries would not have risked the lives of their men in such a way and just flattened the place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I'll trust Dr Mary Khoury, who lives there as a Christian. call me crazy, but that is what I think I will do. and I am talking about Taybeh, which is not Jenin.

you still have yet to show any historical or Biblical evidence to show that Israel is still the Jewish nation.

 

[Zeek]

(Zazal)-What Church were the Jews meant to join?
What were the Jewish Apostles converted to?

​

(Army Matt)- well, the Church that is today the Orthodox Church

I see...not what I understand, but it helps me see where you are coming from.


​

Lol...you can't just draw a line through Israel like that (good thing you aren't G-d, I'd have been zapped years ago).

G-d is working on and amongst His people Israel...just as the Gospel took time to spread through the 1st century, so in these days G-ds grace and mercy is once again focusing on the Jewish people....He is slow to anger and quick to forgive.

It always strikes me how easily we accept the grace of G-d for ourselves, but can easily dismiss G-d working His way and accomplishing His plans through His people Israel.....be patient, give them time, pray for them, forgive them, support them.

​

for one, God's grace and mercy pours out on all flesh, that is the Messianic Age, there is no nation that He is partial to. the Jews were called to a specific purpose, and that was to bring the Messiah. He is the seed of Abraham through whom all nations would be blessed.....ALL NATIONS. no one is saying He is not at work among the Jews because He is. I know of many who have become Orthodox.

Don't have a problem with what you say here Matt, it is what I believe too.


​

You keep mentioning this as though everything pivots around this single Scripture...before I can answer you will need to quote it and explain what you are getting at because I am still none the wiser.

​

it's in Revelation 11:8. it doesn't pivot everything. however, you are saying we should spiritually support the nation-state of Israel. in Revelation, John, a Jew, is saying the capitol of Israel is Sodom (carnality) and Egypt (paganism). so we are spiritually supposed to support a nation whose capitol is about as bad as a 1st century Jew can describe.

I think you misunderstand me when I talk of supporting Israel...it doesn't mean I believe what goes on in Israel doesn't matter...of course it does...they have prostitution, a thriving inappropriate content industry, racketeering, some unfair laws and a whole bunch of other things..and Jerusalem is not the Holy Capital of the world...in fact if/when the third Temple is built I think those verses in Revelation (abomination of desolation) will bring G-ds further judgment.

But despite these things it is my contention that as Christians we should pray for Israel, seek to see the Jewish people blessed, and long that they might come to know their Messiah, I believe that this is encumbent upon us, especially with the re-establishment of Israel as a nation, and the rise of anti-Semitism in all its guises that condemns Israel beyond what is morally acceptable.


​

No what I am saying is that not everything was revealed all at once...even Paul talks about seeing through a glass dimly.
​

yeah it was, at Pentecost. St Paul is speaking of now, still struggling in the world, to the next life where Christ and His Light will be all in all. nowhere does he hint that Jews who rejected their very God and killed Him on the Cross, can still deny Him and be saved.

Jesus laid down His life for all of us....and I have never once suggested that anybody, Jew or Gentile gets a free ticket to eternal life irrespective of what they believe or do.


​

Then you are unfamiliar with Jewish prayers...sure many Jews saw themselves as citizens of the countries they lived in, but they were always very community orientated, went to synagogue, and kept the feasts and the traditions...and prayed and talked about Israel.
Next year in Jerusalem....concluded every Passover service.
​

I can understand that, but those Jews who still longed for Jerusalem, still saw themselves at the time as citizens of whatever country they were in. and I would imagine that would depend on the sect of Judaism. I know many Orthodox Jews don't like the idea of the nation state of Israel.

There are a small portion of Ultra Orthodox Jews that actually despise modern Israel and call it a travesty and seek its earliest demise...they even welcome I'm a dinner Jackets plans to destroy Israel....I believe they are misguided.
​

True...but afterwards the Christians even separated themselves from Believing Jews, much of it advocated through the teachings of certain men called Church Fathers...there came a time when a strong repugnant anti-Semitism invaded the Body.

​

no, the Fathers separated themselves from the Judaizers. no problems with people who are ethnic Jews (because the first saints were Jews), but those who tried to make the fullfilled Old Law still apply to Gentiles. St Paul writes against this quite often and it's what he and St Peter got into a scrap about, and St Paul was deemed correct (St Peter fell in with some Judaizing beliefs). so no, that was not the Fathers.

That is not how the history or the writings of some of the Early Church Fathers reads to me...but I will continue to read more as I am aware how easy it is to cherry-pick and take things out of context...so just treat this observation as an aside.

​

Things are hidden...G-d reveals things in His own good time to His people..we just need to recognise His hand at work when He moves, and look to the Scriptures to disclose to us what is occuring or about to occur. So when Israel suddenly pops up again and it goes against our theology...we need to step back and reassess things, otherwise we are stick our fingers in our ears, close our eyes and ignore what is going on.
​

but the Israel that popped up does not, because it is not God's Israel, His Israel is His Church, His Jerusalem is heaven. it is not the country in the Middle East, which has no Temple and does not even follow the original borders.

This is where I believe the biggest contention lies.

The people of Israel (the Jews) whether in the land or out, are still considered a nation before G-d....just because the New Covenant had been ratified does not sweep away all the promises YHWH made to the nation of Israel, and you cannot spiritualize them away and put the ekklesia (all Believers) in its place....the two are both relevant, otherwise Paul makes no sense in what he tries to show through Romans...eg that they have not been cast away, G-d still has plans for His people Israel (not the ekklesia/Church).
​

 

[Zeek]

I think I'll trust Dr Mary Khoury, who lives there as a Christian. call me crazy, but that is what I think I will do. and I am talking about Taybeh, which is not Jenin.

Not so much crazy as wilfully ignorant...who can contend with such prejudices...you are also free to believe the earth is flat.

you still have yet to show any historical or Biblical evidence to show that Israel is still the Jewish nation.

Ez 36: 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

G-d says throughout the prophets that the Jews will return to the land...they can't very well do that if it is not Israel.

It's in the same area.
It's called Israel.
It's full of Jewish people.
It is a modern miracle.

The coming back to the land is still in progress...I believe the cleansing has started in part...but will be further revealed as events unfold.

 

[Adaephon]

Not so much crazy as wilfully ignorant...who can contend with such prejudices...you are also free to believe the earth is flat.

I never ceased to be impressed by the sheer rudeness of people who think debate means coming as a guest and insulting.

You've said EC conspires with terrorists.
You've called me racist.
You've mocked armymats intelligence and implied he's an idiot.

None of this has anything to do with the subject of your thread. This just looks like you know you can't back up anything you're claiming, which looks like a load of BS to me, and so you're falling back on absurd insults in hopes we ignore just how terrible a job you are doing supporting your claims.

 

[Zeek]

I never ceased to be impressed by the sheer rudeness of people who think debate means coming as a guest and insulting.

I have not tried to insult anyone...you included.
I call things as I see them...and if I am wrong I am always ready to apologise...as a Christian I have learnt over many years that niceness is rather superficial, but saying the truth in love gets to the heart of a matter, especially on the Boards.

You've said EC conspires with terrorists.
You've called me racist.
You've mocked armymats intelligence and implied he's an idiot.

What you perceive about me didn't just come out of thin air...it was in response to some pretty unpleasant comparisons of Israelis to Nazis, Jews as Christ-killers and Israel no longer being a chosen people...as for Matt I am sure he can defend himself, I haven't tried to be rude just forthright and in the light of his answer to me I thought it was a fair comment.

None of this has anything to do with the subject of your thread. This just looks like you know you can't back up anything you're claiming, which looks like a load of BS to me, and so you're falling back on absurd insults in hopes we ignore just how terrible a job you are doing supporting your claims.

Why you are jumping in on the band-wagon baffles me...you're not interested, you don't accept a word I say and just want to stick your oar in and stir things up...IMO you'd be better advised to find something you are interested in and give some positive contribution else where.

 

[E.C.]

I am around a man five days out of the week who taught some of the students killed in Jenin. His uncle was killed as well. Tell him that that was a "propaganda lie". It would be as if you had relatives killed on 7 July 2007 and was told that that was a lie.

Your accusations of terrorist linkage I take to the highest offense because last April I signed away six years of my life to serve the United States Navy. That means when I am finished with my training and deployed in the Fleet my life is at risk. If I am able to take the opportunities that I would like than my life is at a greater risk. Why do I do this? Because I love this country and hate fanaticism of any kind.
I am giving my life and you accuse me of conspiring with those who would be more than happy to take it? How dare you.


Have you ever met a Palestinian? Do you even see them as being human beings with hopes, dreams and emotions? Any man can zealously support whatever popular opinion surrounds him. A true Christian man supports what is right in spite of what the popular opinion is.

Palestinians and Israelis kill each others civilians; this is a fact. The difference is that Israelis can fight back; Palestinians can not. After the Massacre of Jenin the UN wanted to go in and investigate, but were not allowed because Israel said "no". So how did news of what happened get out? A brave man with a camera, whose producer was killed by the IDF after filming, who merely went in and asked people "what happened?"
There is film footage of Palestinian men being marched around in the nude, executed and their bodies crushed into the gravel by bulldozers. I have seen it.

The question then is what happened to those IDF soldiers who committed the atrocities in Jenin? They same as those SS members who erased Lidice from the map: they were decorated as heroes for executing people naked and bombing apartments full of old women and children.




Leave this forum. This is a subforum for debate, not insulting its members. The Orthodox people support their brothers and sisters in Christ wherever they may be. They are in Palestine and have been there since Pentecost. If the Israelis have their way, than there will be no Christians in Palestine.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think you misunderstand me when I talk of supporting Israel...it doesn't mean I believe what goes on in Israel doesn't matter...of course it does...they have prostitution, a thriving inappropriate content industry, racketeering, some unfair laws and a whole bunch of other things..and Jerusalem is not the Holy Capital of the world...in fact if/when the third Temple is built I think those verses in Revelation (abomination of desolation) will bring G-ds further judgment.

But despite these things it is my contention that as Christians we should pray for Israel, seek to see the Jewish people blessed, and long that they might come to know their Messiah, I believe that this is encumbent upon us, especially with the re-establishment of Israel as a nation, and the rise of anti-Semitism in all its guises that condemns Israel beyond what is morally acceptable.

but there is no reason for Israel to be "special" over any other nation since Christ came. the chosen people fulfilled their reason for being called. God became incarnate.

Not so much crazy as wilfully ignorant...who can contend with such prejudices...you are also free to believe the earth is flat.

she lives there, she knows what's going on. that's not ignorance, that's calling an expert an expert, so unless you live there, you are the willfully ignorant one here, not me.

The people of Israel (the Jews) whether in the land or out, are still considered a nation before G-d....just because the New Covenant had been ratified does not sweep away all the promises YHWH made to the nation of Israel, and you cannot spiritualize them away and put the ekklesia (all Believers) in its place....the two are both relevant, otherwise Paul makes no sense in what he tries to show through Romans...eg that they have not been cast away, G-d still has plans for His people Israel (not the ekklesia/Church).

and where is this in Scripture?

Ez 36: 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

how do you know you are reading that correctly? how do you know that the land is NOT the holy nation of St Peter (the Church) being gathered from the nations (the paganism and those who deny Christ)?

 

[Zeek]

I am around a man five days out of the week who taught some of the students killed in Jenin. His uncle was killed as well. Tell him that that was a "propaganda lie". It would be as if you had relatives killed on 7 July 2007 and was told that that was a lie.

I have heard so many lies from Arab Palestinians I could write another book (perhaps I will)...exaggeration is part of their culture, but the West are so gullible and they use that the whole time...they laugh at how easy it is to pass off their fairy-tales to us.

Your accusations of terrorist linkage I take to the highest offense because last April I signed away six years of my life to serve the United States Navy. That means when I am finished with my training and deployed in the Fleet my life is at risk. If I am able to take the opportunities that I would like than my life is at a greater risk. Why do I do this? Because I love this country and hate fanaticism of any kind.
I am giving my life and you accuse me of conspiring with those who would be more than happy to take it? How dare you.

Then don't spout out the typical rhetoric that comes from the mouth of those that hate Israel and want to see it destroyed...my comment was meant to be provocative...You can't take the moral high-ground because you are joining the Navy, serving your country and potentially risking your life...I'm glad for you, I hope it works out and that you learn much about life and make good friends.

Have you ever met a Palestinian? Do you even see them as being human beings with hopes, dreams and emotions? Any man can zealously support whatever popular opinion surrounds him. A true Christian man supports what is right in spite of what the popular opinion is.

Have I Met a Palestinian?....friend I have lived in Israel, I know many Palestinian Arabs, I go back regularly, I speak/debate/argue weekly to Palestinian, Israeli and all other supporters of human rights issues in Israel...just last week I was in a lecture by a co-founder of the Electronic
Intafada.

I have been at pains to explain that although I am a passionate pro-Israel supporter, that does not mean I ride rough-shod over the rights of other people, Palestinian or otherwise, and I support organizations that help both Jews and Arabs.

Israel might be popular in the States, but I can tell you that supporting Israel in the UK is a totally different ball-game...virtually every Church community is against Israel, many believe in divesting from Israel and on the theological side the vast majority believe like the Orthodox and Catholics that Israel has no further significance in the plans of G-d...so I am hardly aligning myself with popular opinion.

Palestinians and Israelis kill each others civilians; this is a fact. The difference is that Israelis can fight back; Palestinians can not.

Israel does not choose to fight...it is the last thing they want, but they are not going to be bullied by demands and terrorism. I believe Israel understands very well how superior their fighting power is... and are generally very restrained...but when you are dealing with people whose national charter wants you all eradicated, you can't just sit back and let them walk over you...as Binyamin Netanyahu said, " If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel -

After the Massacre of Jenin the UN wanted to go in and investigate, but were not allowed because Israel said "no". So how did news of what happened get out? A brave man with a camera, whose producer was killed by the IDF after filming, who merely went in and asked people "what happened?"
There is film footage of Palestinian men being marched around in the nude, executed and their bodies crushed into the gravel by bulldozers. I have seen it.

The Israelis were happy to let any impartial observers in...there were good grounds for not letting the UN in...namely that they refused to have an expert on counter-terrorism who would be able to properly assess things, and because one of them compared the Israeli star of David to a swastika...the UN are not impartial when it comes to Israel. Nevertheless they eventually went in and admitted there was no massacre and about 56 Palestinians killed.

If the film you are referring to is "Jenin, Jenin", by Muhammad Bakri, then I have seen it too, as I have seen virtually all footage available...it has been edited and crafted and is not admissable...especially in the light of the overwhelming evidence that has been dredged up following the battle in Jenin, that totally contradicts such findings and exposes the lengths the Palestinians went to in order to decieve the public and garner support for their cause.

The question then is what happened to those IDF soldiers who committed the atrocities in Jenin? They same as those SS members who erased Lidice from the map: they were decorated as heroes for executing people naked and bombing apartments full of old women and children.

You are so quick and ready to believe such things...all I can hope for is that you do a bit more research and be prepared to re-evaluate your present understanding. Many of those young Israeli soldiers lost friends and comrades during Jenin, fighting terrorists, I hope as a military man you will one day understand that they bravely fought against a well prepared enemy and are not ashamed of the way they did things, which did not include executions, murder and cover-ups....but a mission that took great care in avoiding civilian casualties and should be commended not condemned.

Leave this forum. This is a subforum for debate, not insulting its members.

I'm disappointed...you get a bit of a verbal roughing up and you want to run. I have not insulted you...my reference to Hamas and Fatah was born out of a need to test the waters, I know full well you are not in cahoots with them...it was sarcastic hyperbole, but the things you said are the same sort of things they say.

Why not tough it out with me, rather than demanding I leave...that is the easy option. I bear you no ill-will, but I won't swallow nonsense or allow lies to go unchallenged...We're both Christians, we both love the Saviour, so we have common ground...you may not think you like me, what I say or how I say them, but at the end of the day I am not your enemy I am your brother in Christ.

The Orthodox people support their brothers and sisters in Christ wherever they may be. They are in Palestine and have been there since Pentecost.

I support all Believers as well.

If the Israelis have their way, than there will be no Christians in Palestine.

You have much to learn young Skywalker.

 

[Zeek]

but there is no reason for Israel to be "special" over any other nation since Christ came. the chosen people fulfilled their reason for being called. God became incarnate.

It's not a question of Israel being 'special' over any other nation...the fact is that YHWH identifies Himself with the nation of Israel...not with the US, China or India, but with Israel, and despite their history, their stubborness and their disobedience G-d still identifies Himself with Israel and calls them back to the land for His sake not theirs because it is on them that He has placed His name...in other words they are supposed to represent Him.

That the Jewish Messiah, our Saviour was born of the line of David, does not mean G-d no longer has plans and purpose for Israel and for the Jews who have been scattered all over the earth...any reading of relevant chapters in the prophets will identify the fact that they are still His people, but that only a remnant amongst them have come to faith in Him through Messiah (so far).

It is no different than it has always been, judgments came upon Israel due to faithlessness, disobedience and whoring after other G-ds...but amongst their number were great men of G-d who did not bow down to Baal or turn their back on YHWH...there has always been a core of true Believers, and true sons of Abraham, not merely sons of the flesh.

she lives there, she knows what's going on. that's not ignorance, that's calling an expert an expert, so unless you live there, you are the willfully ignorant one here, not me.

I respect that you trust this one person...but I challenge you to look deeper into what actually took place. Sometimes with the best will in the world people believe things that are based on assumptions and distortions...and even Archbishops are not immune from such mistakes.

Are you also aware that many Moslems lie the whole time, especially to Christians as by doing so they believe they are bringing the judgment of G-d to bear on the infidels...they will also cheat, thieve, abuse and kill when it suits their purposes because they can do so with impunity...as with honour killings etc.

and where is this in Scripture?

It is in Romans 9-11 and throughout various writings of the prophets...it is impossible to read your Bible and miss what is being said. Happy to show numerous verse if you cannot see them for yourself. Just Read.

how do you know you are reading that correctly? how do you know that the land is NOT the holy nation of St Peter (the Church) being gathered from the nations (the paganism and those who deny Christ)?

Just read it in context it is so obvious that it is talking about the Jewish people and the land YHWH gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for an eternal inheritance. (I've never come across the expression 'the holy nation of St Peter, that's a new one on me.)

 

[Gnarwhal]

God did identify with national Israel, the one in the Old Testament Scriptures. Then in the first century AD, the faithful Jews chose to follow the Messiah. Thus the Church succeeded Israel like Jacobs twelve sons succeeded him, and they were succeeded by twelve tribes who became Israel and those twelve tribes later became the unified nation of Israel. In that same fashion, the Church assumed the role of Israel.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's not a question of Israel being 'special' over any other nation...the fact is that YHWH identifies Himself with the nation of Israel...not with the US, China or India, but with Israel, and despite their history, their stubborness and their disobedience G-d still identifies Himself with Israel and calls them back to the land for His sake not theirs because it is on them that He has placed His name...in other words they are supposed to represent Him.

That the Jewish Messiah, our Saviour was born of the line of David, does not mean G-d no longer has plans and purpose for Israel and for the Jews who have been scattered all over the earth...any reading of relevant chapters in the prophets will identify the fact that they are still His people, but that only a remnant amongst them have come to faith in Him through Messiah (so far).

It is no different than it has always been, judgments came upon Israel due to faithlessness, disobedience and whoring after other G-ds...but amongst their number were great men of G-d who did not bow down to Baal or turn their back on YHWH...there has always been a core of true Believers, and true sons of Abraham, not merely sons of the flesh.

He is the God of Israel, but you still have yet to show that Israel is how YOU are defining it.

I respect that you trust this one person...but I challenge you to look deeper into what actually took place. Sometimes with the best will in the world people believe things that are based on assumptions and distortions...and even Archbishops are not immune from such mistakes.

Are you also aware that many Moslems lie the whole time, especially to Christians as by doing so they believe they are bringing the judgment of G-d to bear on the infidels...they will also cheat, thieve, abuse and kill when it suits their purposes because they can do so with impunity...as with honour killings etc.

no one quoted a Muslim, she is a Christian. her husband lives there and her brother in law is the priest. all of the Christians there say the same thing. so no, I do not trust just one person. I trust the experience of an entire Christian town, caught between the Jews and Muslims.

It is in Romans 9-11 and throughout various writings of the prophets...it is impossible to read your Bible and miss what is being said. Happy to show numerous verse if you cannot see them for yourself. Just Read.

Just read it in context it is so obvious that it is talking about the Jewish people and the land YHWH gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for an eternal inheritance. (I've never come across the expression 'the holy nation of St Peter, that's a new one on me.)

you don't know St Peter calling the Church a holy nation (which is what the Prophets used to call Israel, as well as God's Bride which the NT also calls the Church), and you are telling me to read? you also have yet to show that your interpretation is correct. and I appreciate the patronizing. thanks for telling me to read the Bible, even though you are the one who missed a clear verse from both Revelation and Peter.

 

[Zeek]

God did identify with national Israel, the one in the Old Testament Scriptures. Then in the first century AD, the faithful Jews chose to follow the Messiah. Thus the Church succeeded Israel like Jacobs twelve sons succeeded him, and they were succeeded by twelve tribes who became Israel and those twelve tribes later became the unified nation of Israel. In that same fashion, the Church assumed the role of Israel.

Hi BF...I don't think you understand the nature of the nation G-d calls Israel....they have never stopped being a nation before Him, even when they have been dispossessed and dispersed across the face of the earth, and yes even when they have been steeped in unbelief and rejected Torah which was always there introduce them to salvation through their Messiah.

Jer 31

36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.” 37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

The Church has never assumed the role of Israel...that is to spiritualize the Jews and their destiny away, and is not a biblical concept at all, and probably comes from woolly teaching on the term 'Israel of G-d' which encompasses all Believers Jew and Gentile, but also clearly differentiates from physical Israel according to the flesh, which although partially hardened and blinded has not been cast off by G-d or replaced by the Church....Paul talks of their turning away from Yeshua as a 'stumble' or a 'hiccup' if you like...in other words it is temporary and does not constitute a fall (presumably because G-d is for them and not agianst them).

Romans 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!


Gal 6:16 is clearly backed by Pauls teaching in Romans 9-11 where he especially warns the Gentile Believers not to write off the unbelieving Jews because they too have the opportunity to receive His grace through their Messiah and to be grafted back into their natural olive tree.

Romans 11:20....Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Zeek]

He is the God of Israel, but you still have yet to show that Israel is how YOU are defining it.

Please read my reply to Fudge, it touches on it fairly clearly.

no one quoted a Muslim, she is a Christian. her husband lives there and her brother in law is the priest. all of the Christians there say the same thing. so no, I do not trust just one person. I trust the experience of an entire Christian town, caught between the Jews and Muslims.

Where can I read their testimony and account to judge these things for myself ?...I have read pages of accounts, and never come across such a testimony apart from Moslem sources which have all proven to be completely false.

you don't know St Peter calling the Church a holy nation (which is what the Prophets used to call Israel, as well as God's Bride which the NT also calls the Church), and you are telling me to read? you also have yet to show that your interpretation is correct. and I appreciate the patronizing. thanks for telling me to read the Bible, even though you are the one who missed a clear verse from both Revelation and Peter.

Again you totally misunderstand me....you used the expression for the Church as 'the holy nation of St Peter'...of course I know Israel is called a holy nation, but I thought the way you used it was a new term....maybe it is an Orthodox expression.

I wasn't trying to be patronizing in any way by asking you to read...I gave you guide-lines so you could check out things for yourself in Scripture and let the Holy Spirit lead you, rather than me mining verses and trying to build on some of the points I have been making.

I'm sure my bible knowledge is lacking in many places and my understanding could be better...we are all on the same road, may G-d make us fruitful in the knowledge of Himself.

 

[Cappadocious]

I have found that prophecy reveals itself bit by bit, and quite often we only see in part until the next sequence of events is revealed.

I doubt your eyes.

the Jews saw the Messiah as King, but did not see Him as suffering and dying...they missed out some stuff.

And they only figured it out after the fact. Do you really think prophecies are about predicting the future?

I think you will find that Scripture states exactly what you think it doesn't state.

No. No it doesn't.

I'd rather trust the Christians of the first 1800 years of Christianity, and the great medieval Jewish scholars, and even "secular" biblical scholars and historians over some zany, profitless notion that was conjured up in recent times in order to justify supporting wickedness.

Has it never seemed remarkable to you that in one day a nation comes back into being after a 1,800 year absence...

No, no, I think if you take a look at the history leading up to the formation of the modern state of israel, it's pretty straightforward.

And the old kingdom of Israel didn't come back. Some people moved into that area and named their modern state "Israel". You see. Russia calls itself Rome sometimes, but nobody buys that either.

that Jews flock to the land..that ancient cities rise again...

In case you didn't know, those cities were occupied when the zionists moved in. They didn't vanish after the Expulsion.

that the world gets blessed by Israel in so many ways...

You mean how our government gives them money, manpower, and technology and then they use it and develop it?

and that the focus of world attention is on Israel

No surprise there. If you look at the past 2000 years, it's been a rather popular place. You had your Islamic takeover, your Crusades, the Baha'i even did their thing there for a while, really. Spiritual Sodom and Egypt has endured as a popular tourist destination.

I have no idea what you are trying to imply here...it don't sound nice though.

That trying to predict the future through biblical prophecy like you're reading a manual is not only fruitless, but it is also silly. And unstable.