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Why support the nation of Israel?

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by Zeek, Feb 28, 2013.

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  1. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    you have given nothing outside of your own opinion.

    I gave you the town, I have you a prominent member of said town. if you really care you will see for yourself.

    if that is a new expression to you, you need to read the New Testament better, cause it's in there.

    being Orthodox and not a Protestant, I am not just gonna read the Scripture and trust that I am listening to the Spirit, because I could be listening to myself or a demon and thinking it's the Spirit. the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth, so I will listen to that Church.
     
  2. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    It is a precept that Jesus discusses with His disciples, He told them many things that they did not understand at the time, but told them these things so that when they did occur they would remember His words...you may not like or agree with what I say, but its in your Bible same as mine.

    Luke 21:
    29Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

    John 14:
    28“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29“Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.


    Prophecy encompasses many things, essentially Old Testament prophets were the oracle of G-d...they heard from G-d and advised the nation, including the King...they were a moral compass to the nation, and when Israel went astray they were the voice of reason that reminded them of the covenant relationship they had with G-d and the consequences for ignoring what they had signed up to.

    In the New Testament prophecy is spoken of in terms of exhortation, consolation and edification. (1 Cor 14:3)

    So yes prophecy does involve talking of the future, and is largely linked to Covenant relationship in respect of the Jewish nation...but it is not limited to simply predicting the future, and the Prophets of Old has their lives bound up in the life of the nation.


    Believe it or not, I am not a dispensationalist...I believe in a Covenant theology, from what I understand the main reason Orthodoxy does not accept the re-emergence of Israel is because they can only see it in terms of the Covenant, and because they are largely secular and ungdodly and do not recognise Messiah, then the wrath of G-d still abides on them and they are outside His plans.

    However what I keep trying to demonstrate is that all this is true, but there comes a time when the grace of G-d which has been extended to the Gentiles for a period...is also concentrated on the Jewish people, despite their spiritual state in an effort to show to them the love that YHWH has for them....this is accomplished first by G-d bringing them back to the land and then events will unfold that will reveal Himself to the nation. Ezekiel 36 is very specific about G-d doing this ...not because of them (they are still in disobedience) but for His Names sake.

    If I can get you to consider how we as Gentiles first got to know G-d...it was when we were at odds with Him, lost in our trespasses and sin, and the Bible says we were found by Him even though we weren't even looking for Him...that is Grace. I believe that G-ds grace is beginning to be specifically extended to the Jewish people in these days.

    Romans 10

    20And Isaiah is very bold and says,
    “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
    I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.” 21But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”

    In terms of wickedness, in the scales of justice with the US and Israel I don't believe Israel to be any worse in human terms, and perhaps far more moral in some areas. Many believe the US is spiritual Babylon...but I support the US despite her many inconsistencies and the wickedness throughout the nation.

    Israel is often held to a far higher standard than any other nation
    .

    The Bible speaks differently.


    Actually the vast majority were in ruins and deserted...sure there were peasant and nomadic communities scattered over the land, but they were hardly a thriving indigenous community.


    No, I don't mean a cynical look at how the world is benefits (is blessed) I mean the facts that are available in our everyday lives, including a great deal of computer technology and medical advancements...for example, recently a mechanical frame has been invented that can help paralysed people walk again...the Jewish man who invented this is himself paralysed and cannot benefit from his own invention, but is so pleased he has been able to help others. Check this out.

    Israeli device lets paralyzed people stand, walk



    Not really...Jerusalem has been the main focus of attention and only intermittently...the rest of the land was largely unworkable and was not the prime concern of those seeking to conquer, not even the Moslems.


    Oh I see...well as I have explained it is not quite like that...events that have happened and are happening re-invigorate prophetic Scriptures that have lain largely dormant until G-d chooses to ignite them...I happen to believe this is a work of the Spirit and is in line with the way G-d has chosen to operate as described in His Word...you may not believe this for whatever reasons, but I shape my life and understanding around this.
     
  3. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    Explain to me in a nutshell what you are expecting me to demonstrate...is it that Israel is still at the center of G-ds purposes?

    Fine...I care deeply for the truth, but I was hoping you would have a bit more substance/evidence to your arguments...I will go and do my own research.


    :doh:...I'm not going to argue with you over such a trifle...what can I say?... I am such an ignoramus.


    Wow...no wonder Scripture doesn't come easily to you...do you actually read the Bible, or don't you trust yourself to read it with a clean heart and an open mind?...you are a living stone in the ediface called the Church...not made with human hands, but spiritual bricks. You have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you.

    So you have an Orthodox back-ground and defer to the teachings of that part of the Body to which you give allegiance...but you are also an individual and have a G-d-given mind of your own, that can actually make decisions based on biblical truths...The Orthodox Church can't live your life for you, and might be mistaken on certain issues...our trust should ultimately be in the L-rd, and I would have thought Orthodoxy would have encouraged that understanding.
     
  4. Cappadocious

    Cappadocious Well-Known Member

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    But predicting the future is not the point.

    Then you do not understand.

    Nothing is outside God's plan.

    I believe God restored the kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament. It's recorded there. But Ezekiel predicting the restoration of the secular state of Israel as a "stage" in the salvation of the Jews after Christ came? That's a bit much.

    Insofar as God does everything for the salvation of the world, sure. But then you gotta go all the way.


    Then why isn't he giving them the blessings spoken of in the Sermon on the Mount?

    Pastoral nomadic communities are thriving indigenous communities.



    We got a lot of similar advancements from Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia too.

    History simply doesn't bear that out.
     
  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    you came on here to defend why we should theologically support Israel, and all you have given is your interpretation of Scriptures.



    I have spoken with a woman who actually lives there. a Christian woman. kinda makes it easy. but yes, you should.

    you probably then should not be instructing others to read Scripture



    no, Scripture actually does come easily for me. I have the proper interpretation. you fall into every modernist and liberal view of theology. that I can just pick up a Bible and read it, pray about what I am reading, and understand. every Christian denomination does what you are instructing me to do, and yet they all say different things, like we are doing. so there has to be some standard that can show if you are reading ir correctly. that standard is the Church because the Church is the context for the Scripture. the Bible flows out of the belief of the Church that wrote and put it together, for its purposes. and that Church sees itself as Israel, not the nation state you are talking about.

    Mormons use the same arguments you are using when they evangelize, so that kinda shows that you cannot just read it and pray alone, completely devoid of context.



    the Church is the Body of Christ, headed by Him, offered to the Father, and guided by the Holy Spirit. my God given mind will submit to the Church, because by doing to, I am submitting to Him. there is no Biblical truth for believing that I can just go off on my own contrary to what Christ taught. Christ gave the Church for a reason, and said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Apostles into all truth. so either Christ lied and held back this view from them, or He has done a poor job leading His Church because Messianic Judaism and theological support for the nation state of Israel is very modern, and the thought was either lost right after the Apostles or we did not get it until then. none of these is compatable with what Christ taught the Church
     
  6. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    Come on Cap...I gave you a far more extensive summary than what you are quoting, you obviously have something on your mind regarding prophecy.please spit it out I can't bear the suspense.


    If that is the case are you now saying the Jewish people are relevant and are still included in G-ds plans according to the Bible?




    You know something, Elijah thought he was the only G-d fearing man alive at the time of Ahab and Jezebel, but G-d revealed to him there were 7,000 others in Israel who do not serve other gods.

    Israel may be called secular by modern parlance, but then again down through the ages the nation fluctuated in its allegience to YHWH, but there was always a remnant. This modern secular State of Israel probably has more true Believers than at any time since the 2-3rd century...in light of what Ezekiel states and what other prophets indicate, I see this as evidence for G-d at work precisely according to His Word.


    The nation as a whole does not obey YHWH and does not recognise Messiah...but G-d is at work, and there will come a time when swords will be turned into plough-shares and the lwolf will live with the lamb....




    The point was that many towns were desolate and their walls remained broken down...I don't suppose it will make any difference to you if I point out that being nomadic and indigenous in this instance is a bit of an oxymoron, even the Ottomans did not count nomads in their poor census reports because they wandered in and out of the various lands, but lets not go down that path.



    I suspect that regarding the State of Israel your cup will always be half empty, and comparisons to Nazis will never be far from your thoughts and your lips.

    We must have read different historical narratives...it's a smorgasbord out there.
     
  7. Adaephon

    Adaephon Guest

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    Been looking at tweets from AIPAC2013 on twitter. It's pretty nauseating. So much jingoism and whitewashing. Eric Cantor gave a pretty crazy speech about how Israel is a "gift" to the "free people of the world" or something which is ironic considering their illegal occupation of Palestine, and how they are introducing apartheid with segregated busses.
     
  8. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    Same old same old.

    Absolute nonsense about segregated buses being apartheid...they have introduced the scheme for the benefit of the Arabs and the safety of their citizens, but the anti-Israel media are trying to make it into something it is not, and Christians should not be so willing to jump on the band-wagon.
     
  9. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    With due respect whatever I say and whatever Scripture I quote is going to be received as if I had leprosy...not a single person has said 'wait a minute I'll look further into that' or 'I see what you are getting at'...I'm not Orthodox and so regarding the subject of Israel and the Jewish people it as if I am a heathen. (not complaining I experience it quite a lot...just stating how things appear from my end :))


    It is part of what I do.

    I get it....the I am right and you are wrong syndrome because our Church is the only real genuine 100% accurate Holy Spirit led community.

    I appreciate the historicity that both the Orthodox and Catholic bodies have...but that does not equate with perfection, and there are some glaring controversies that have raged through centuries...so to think that the only differences that occur are within main-stream Protestant bodies is not exactly true, and I can walk into most congregations and have no real theological differences that separate the Body....

    If the Church (your tradition) choses to see itself as Israel, it must also understand that Israel was never perfect, and failed in many respects bringing judgment upon herself. It must also contend with the fact about what to teach concerning modern Israel that must be a thorn in the side of many peoples traditional theology.

    I am not a Mormon-type-cultist, I am a Christian talking to another Christian...the same Holy Spirit dwells in me that dwells in you...the same Spirit that makes the Word of G-d come alive and speak to our heart and our conscience...if indeed we have learnt to listen and obey.


    I understand that loyalty...but the Church should not be turned into something it is not...the Church is the ekklesia not the Orthodox establishment...they are part of the ekklesia, and the Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons and has no religious affiliations....in other words no group has the monopoly on G-d, although many imagine they do.


    That is never something I have suggested.

    and you believe that means Jesus established Othodoxy and that within Othodoxy the truth would always be found.....I believe differently that He established the ekklesia not an organization...and that within the ekklesia are many traditions including Orthodoxy.

    Jesus certainly kept things to Himself...Scripture says so.

    The whole idea of national Israel re-emerging is a theme throughout the prophets and it totally compatible with what the Bible teaches...that it has happened in our times is a theological shock to many groups, especially if they have a traditional and historical in-built anti-Semitic bias and theology....I mean the idea that the Christ-Killers could actually still be in the plans of G-d is appalling to some Christians, who believe G-d will only have anything to do with them if they repent and become good Christians...a bit like saying the only good Jew is a Christian.
     
  10. Adaephon

    Adaephon Guest

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    It's pretty pathetic to see you making excuses for institutionalized racism.

    http://m.aljazeera.com/story/20133414315434321

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage

    http://m.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424127887324178904578340541101396634?mg=reno64-wsj
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2013
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    that's a cop out

    then you should probably read it closer before you go instructing others to read it.

    another cop out

    before Pentecost and the Spirit being poured out on all flesh, yes Israel was imperfect in her teachings because they were not ready since the Messiah had not come. since Pentecost, because of the promise of Christ, the Church is perfect in her teachings. just because someone calls themselves Israel does not mean that they are Israel, especially from a Christian point of view

    and yet, you are using the same weak arguments that they use to defend their beliefs. read Scripture and pray about it. if it were that easy, the Bible would be very small and Christians would not be as divided as they are.

    there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit is leading people by telling them contradictory things. He is no repector of persons to be true, but Him not being a respector of persons does not mean folks can claim whatever they want about Him and think they are following Him. there is one visible Body of Christ, that is what you see in Acts, and it is how the Church was viewed for the first 1500+ years. the idea that you can be a Christian without THE Church is modernist and very liberal.

    that's fine that you believe that, but it's neither biblical nor historic

    not post Pentecost, and He never said He would wait to 2000 years to tell us something new. again, neither historic nor biblical

    and again, you are merely stating that your definition if Israel after Pentecost is the true onw. you are providing nothing concrete to defend what you are saying, you are just saying this is the way it is because I say the Bible says so.
     
  12. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    Whatever....it is a safety measure and makes sense, even to many Palestinians who get better service...but there will always be the detractors who use it to fan the flames of a racist argument.
     
  13. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    (Zazal)-If the Church (your tradition) choses to see itself as Israel, it must also understand that Israel was never perfect, and failed in many respects bringing judgment upon herself. It must also contend with the fact about what to teach concerning modern Israel that must be a thorn in the side of many peoples traditional theology.
    (ArmyMatt)-before Pentecost and the Spirit being poured out on all flesh, yes Israel was imperfect in her teachings because they were not ready since the Messiah had not come. since Pentecost, because of the promise of Christ, the Church is perfect in her teachings. just because someone calls themselves Israel does not mean that they are Israel, especially from a Christian point of view.

    Interesting claim...where specifically does Scripture ever claim or imply the Church is perfect in her teachings? Bearing in mind that first of all you have to explain the proper definition of the word Church in the context that you choose to use.

    What I know is that even Paul warns those he teaches not to believe him if he speaks things that are contrary to the Gospel, and goes on to imply that he was not initially taught by man, but G-d gave him revelation through the Holy Spirit. (Gal 1:11-12)...


    I am not a Mormon-type-cultist, I am a Christian talking to another Christian...the same Holy Spirit dwells in me that dwells in you...the same Spirit that makes the Word of G-d come alive and speak to our heart and our conscience...if indeed we have learnt to listen and obey.
    and yet, you are using the same weak arguments that they use to defend their beliefs. read Scripture and pray about it. if it were that easy, the Bible would be very small and Christians would not be as divided as they are.

    That is just you being ingenuous...it isn't just that you pick up a Bible and pray about it, but that one of the ways you begin to understand G-d is by reading the Bible and learning the Word of G-d...burying Scripture in your heart. When I first became a Believer while hitching through Spain, I knew virtually nothing about G-d or the Bible, but when I turned to Him and repented and had an infilling of His Spirit, the Bible came alive and I devoured it and studied it and I will do so till I drop off my perch.

    I tested what I learnt against things I heard in Christian meetings, books I read, various teachings and specifically through debate with Christians and witnessing to non-Christians...but most of all I understood that the Holy Spirit was my guide, and was leading me to understand more fully the things of G-d, the character of G-d and what the Christian life is all about...this same method of understanding G-d is common to many Believers, because we have been indwelt by the same Spirit, and is not tempered or hindered by being filtered through mans teachings or traditions, many of which are a distraction.


    I understand that loyalty...but the Church should not be turned into something it is not...the Church is the ekklesia not the Orthodox establishment...they are part of the ekklesia, and the Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons and has no religious affiliations....in other words no group has the monopoly on G-d, although many imagine they do.
    there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit is leading people by telling them contradictory things. He is no repector of persons to be true, but Him not being a respector of persons does not mean folks can claim whatever they want about Him and think they are following Him. there is one visible Body of Christ, that is what you see in Acts, and it is how the Church was viewed for the first 1500+ years. the idea that you can be a Christian without THE Church is modernist and very liberal.

    Again you are saying things that no one has said, and assuming a simplistic airy-fairy wishy-washy new-age sort of Christianity is what I and others like me have acquiesed to....such an idea is like me summing up your beliefs as weird and full of strange hymns and prayers to Mary and the Saints and the whole host of Heaven, with a drab medieval liturgy.

    Actually what you see in Acts of the Apostles is communities of Jewish and Gentile Believers springing up throughout the Near East, and hands being laid upon those with clear leadership potential and proven character...unfortunately it became very institutionalised by the middle of the 4th Century with draconian measures taken against those who did not do what the dominant Christian group demanded.

    The whole idea of national Israel re-emerging is a theme throughout the prophets and it totally compatible with what the Bible teaches...that it has happened in our times is a theological shock to many groups, especially if they have a traditional and historical in-built anti-Semitic bias and theology....I mean the idea that the Christ-Killers could actually still be in the plans of G-d is appalling to some Christians, who believe G-d will only have anything to do with them if they repent and become good Christians...a bit like saying the only good Jew is a Christian.

    and again, you are merely stating that your definition if Israel after Pentecost is the true onw. you are providing nothing concrete to defend what you are saying, you are just saying this is the way it is because I say the Bible says so.

    It is there in your Bible in black and white, but it appears you don't believe in the prophets otherwise you would believe the words they speak concerning Israel...it doesn't get more concrete than that, and you can't really get a stronger wake up call (prophetic indicator) than the re-emergence of the State of Israel.

    Ezekiel 20:34 - "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered -- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath."

    Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."

    Isaiah 66:8 NIV - "Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children."

    Ezekiel 36:11; 24 KJV - "And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better [unto you] than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."

    Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."

    Isaiah 35:1-2 NIV - "The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy...."
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Church, the Body of believers established by Christ. His Body, of whom He (God is the Head. Christ said the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church, that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, and that the Spirit would lead into all truth (to the Apostles).



    and yet, that is not what you see in the book of Acts. yeah, I have no doubt that you turned to Christ and repented, but every Christian says this, and this is not what is seen having been done by Christians in Scripture. they always went to an existing bishop or priest, and were recieved into the already existing Body, even after professed belief and repentence (ie Paul still went to Ananias even after he was struck down at Damascus).



    no I am merely saying that if you look at Christianity, actually read what the early Church did, you will find that what you profess and what you stated earlier about your conversion are NOT what you see either in history or the Bible. that means that it is very modernist and liberal



    while you are correct in your first point, the second idea is just false if you actually read what those men and women from that time say. if what you said were true, then the minority belief would have gotten squashed by the dominant group, but saints like St Maximos the Confessor, who were persecuted by members of the Church, have been deemed correct while the dominant groups have been deemed the heretics.



    you are again merely stating that your belief is correct because of how YOU read it in the Bible. if Israel is the Church all of those verses you mention apply. so, again, you cannot just throw Scripture quotes over and over.
     
  15. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    (Zazal)-Interesting claim...where specifically does Scripture ever claim or imply the Church is perfect in her teachings? Bearing in mind that first of all you have to explain the proper definition of the word Church in the context that you choose to use.

    What I know is that even Paul warns those he teaches not to believe him if he speaks things that are contrary to the Gospel, and goes on to imply that he was not initially taught by man, but G-d gave him revelation through the Holy Spirit. (Gal 1:11-12)...




    (ArmyMatt)-Church, the Body of believers established by Christ. His Body, of whom He (God is the Head. Christ said the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church, that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, and that the Spirit would lead into all truth (to the Apostles).

    OK lets have a closer look at what you see as the evidence that proves the Church is perfect (and by association that this is the Orthodox tradition.)

    Matt 16:

    13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

    The expression gates of Hades/Hell which in Greek is pulai hadou is lifted from the Hebrew and simply means the abode of the dead or Sheol.
    So in context of Peters confession of faith, Jesus is saying that 'death won't triumph'. Those of us who like Peter confess Jesus as L-rd and Saviour and know the Father are secure in the knowledge that death holds no fears because Jesus has defeated sin and death....this is made evident by other Scriptures such as:

    1 Cor 15:
    54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans:6
    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    You went on to say, "that the Spirit would lead into all truth (to the Apostles)"....so I have quoted the Scripture below to see if this actually means that what the Church teaches will always be perfect.

    12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

    In light of what has previously been spoken about (not necessarily by just you) it is interesting to note that Jesus holds back from revealing certain things.

    I don't think anyone would argue the fact that the Holy Spirit is always true in what He speaks, and is 100% reliable, and if I said to you 'Jesus is L-rd' you would say 'Amen' or if I said to you 'Jesus has been revealed through Scripture and through the revelation of the Holy Spirit as Almighty G-d' you would also say 'Amen' (a cultist would not).

    So is Jesus talking about a specific group of people when He mentions the Church?...answer, yes, it is everyone who like Peter confesses who Jesus is...what the Church is not, is a specific religious group, be they Orthodox, Catholic, or any shade of Protestant. This is the sticking point with many Christian communities that try to claim otherwise and believe they alone are the true inheritors of the apostolic mantel, and thereby create a partisan theology that has a degree of exclusivity...the older traditional communities make certain claims to justify their particular brand of Christianity, and later groups under the Protestant umbrella do exactly the same thing (getting back to basics, rediscovering biblical truths etc).

    If the Holy Spirit is evidenced in the lives of Christians across the multi-faceted spectrum of authentic Christian belief it would be true to say that they all have access to the Father through the Son by the Spirit, and that means access to knowledge of the truth...again a very biblical concept, and a theme found throughout Scripture.

    There is no hierarchy in the Body that I see...just a variety of individuals gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve the Body/Church, and the truths that line up with Scripture and thus the Holy Spirit are found in the Orthodox establishment and clean across the Board to some of the more recent movements.

    What is acceptable as sound doctrine varies to a degree between groups...this doesn't mean the Spirit is wrong or the author of confusion...it means that as fallible sinful individuals, we have the capacity to complicate things or fudge up the issues. There are core elements to a Christians beliefs that cannot be compromised, but there are other issues that do not effect salvation and are based on interpretation, tradition, and revelation.

    So having said all this, I can not see any clear indication from Scripture that backs up your claim about perfection in the Church...perfection it seems lies with G-d and with us only when we follow His lead.

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  16. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    what evidence do you have to show that you are reading this correctly?



    and Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, and New Agers all claim this as well. so who is right, and what evidence do you have to show that you are reading this correctly?



    the Holy Spirit is God, and He can do what He wills. that does not mean that those who He is acting upon are in the Body of Christ.



    then you need to read closer. there are bishops, priests, and deacons all mentioned in the NT. there always has been a heirarchy.



    not a Biblical belief, and found nowhere in Scripture. just a way of justifying Christianity being so divided.



    and this is the crux of the matter, how do you know you are reading this correctly? you admit humans are fallible, and yet you keep hammering YOUR opinion on what the Scripture says.
     
  17. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    I am giving you the benefit of my understanding according to a straight-forward reading of the plain text concerning the Scriptures you mentioned that demonstrate 'the Church is perfect in her teachings'...it is for you to prove what you said from the Scriptures you quoted is correct, especially as you believe you have the weight evidence...what I have written is to pre-empt your reply and for you to understand more fully where I stand and why.




    So is Jesus talking about a specific group of people when He mentions the Church?...answer, yes, it is everyone who like Peter confesses who Jesus is...what the Church is not, is a specific religious group, be they Orthodox, Catholic, or any shade of Protestant. This is the sticking point with many Christian communities that try to claim otherwise and believe they alone are the true inheritors of the apostolic mantel, and thereby create a partisan theology that has a degree of exclusivity...the older traditional communities make certain claims to justify their particular brand of Christianity, and later groups under the Protestant umbrella do exactly the same thing (getting back to basics, rediscovering biblical truths etc).



    and Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, and New Agers all claim this as well. so who is right, and what evidence do you have to show that you are reading this correctly?

    THEY ARE CULTISTS....they do not know G-d, they may speak in similar religious language, but the god they believe in is a caricature of the G-d who is revealed through Scripture...this is so easily evidenced by looking at any of their basic doctrines concerning the nature and character of G-d...

    I don't have any evidence that I am reading the Bible correctly...the Bible should be its own evidence and should instruct us...if I make a mistake or get the wrong end of the stick I am always ready to rethink things and prayerfully reconsider. It may not make sense to you, but part of my learning process when reading Scripture has been what I call a witness in my spirit through the Holy Spirit...very much like the disciples on the road to Emmaus who after Jesus has taken them through the Old Testament and vanishes say LK 24:32 “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

    I believe that the Holy Spirit does lead the Church into all truth, but we are the individuals that make up the Church/Body...and we are given the promise of the Spirit, not just to assure us of forgiveness, the promise of eternal life and the things to come...but to help us and guide us which includes understanding Scripture...indeed He the Spirit is called the Paraclete or Helper/Guide, and when you read John 14-16 you see that He is to us what Jesus was to His disciples...as the L-rd promises John 14: 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

    The promise although given to the disciples was for everyone who believed including you and me.



    If the Holy Spirit is evidenced in the lives of Christians across the multi-faceted spectrum of authentic Christian belief it would be true to say that they all have access to the Father through the Son by the Spirit, and that means access to knowledge of the truth...again a very biblical concept, and a theme found throughout Scripture.
    the Holy Spirit is God, and He can do what He wills. that does not mean that those who He is acting upon are in the Body of Christ.

    That depends if you read Scripture openly or come to it with specific teachings already lodged in your understanding that force themselves upon the text. I was talking of people that it is obvious they know G-d from the testimony of their lips, their character and their life-style....I was not alluding to the work of the Holy Spirit in the process of drawing men to the Saviour.


    There is no hierarchy in the Body that I see...just a variety of individuals gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve the Body/Church, and the truths that line up with Scripture and thus the Holy Spirit are found in the Orthodox establishment and clean across the Board to some of the more recent movements.



    then you need to read closer. there are bishops, priests, and deacons all mentioned in the NT. there always has been a heirarchy.

    (Evidently there is no monopoly on being patronizing :cool:)

    What you see as a hierarchy, I see as servanthood, and although Paul was such an amazing example of a gifted individual, he did not assume his position as an Apostle...it was evident for all to see and accompanied by signs and wonders. The office to which he was called became apparent over a period of at least 14 years, and he went around setting up congregations and laying hands on people to receive the office of deacon, elder or whatever...IMO it was never viewed as a hierarchy, and was certainly never full of pomp, wealth and power.
    There are core elements to a Christians beliefs that cannot be compromised, but there are other issues that do not effect salvation and are based on interpretation, tradition, and revelation.
    not a Biblical belief, and found nowhere in Scripture. just a way of justifying Christianity being so divided.

    Christianity has been divided since its inception...that is because of the nature of man. The New Testament is rife with accounts of the differences throughout the different congregations... so yes it is biblical, and no it is not an excuse to justify Christianity being divided.

    You are setting the bar at an unattainable and unrealistic height because diversity within the Body was a given from the get go and never a major issue...the problems that did arise centered around the person and nature of G-d...the fundamental backbone of Christian belief, and other issues that added or detracted from the simplicity of the Gospel such as circumcision.



    So having said all this, I can not see any clear indication from Scripture that backs up your claim about perfection in the Church...perfection it seems lies with G-d and with us only when we follow His lead.
    and this is the crux of the matter, how do you know you are reading this correctly? you admit humans are fallible, and yet you keep hammering YOUR opinion on what the Scripture says.

    And yet you have not backed up why the Scriptures you referenced demonstrate the Church is perfect in her teachings...if the Scripture does not show what in my 'opinion' it does, then it is up to you to back up what you stated and clearly show me why those verses show what you claim, and where I am evidently misunderstanding what I read.
    __________________
    "Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann

    "The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
     
  18. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no you are giving me how you read it. the Bible was never intended to be read the way that you are reading it now. and it is not plainly read at all, especially when one devoids the context and the culture that brought it forth.



    who do the same thing YOU do when they read it. you only SAY that you are not making up an idol, but they look at the same scripture and comes to redically different conclusions. so it's pretty clear that the Bible is not meant to only be read on it's own



    and everybody says that, and everybody disagrees, and stays in disagreement. not only with each other, but with the founders of their own confessions.



    no, that promise was given to the Body that Christ started, which is a historic Body, that is visable. people are not just Christians and then a part of that Body because they think the Spirit is moving them.



    the heirarch is based on servanthood, because the Chief priest is the Suffering Servant. no one is talking about wealth or power. and to say that those who were ordained did not have authority is a complete denial of history and Scripture. St Paul is always asserting his authority as an apostle. he speaks of being obediant to those appointed over you. he calls out ranks within the Body that is the fulfillment of the OT Levitical priesthood.

    yes, there is and always has been a heirarchy



    evidence for this is......?



    no it isn't. all things are possible with God. we are talking about dogmatic differences, where is it in Scripture that some doctrines are improtant, and some are not?



    not the point of this thread. thr burden of proof is on you since you are the one who is telling us to theologically support the nation state of Israel. if you wanna know our take on interpretation, fine, but that is another thread.

    so, I'll ask again, how do you know you are reading the Scripture correctly?
     
  19. Zeek

    Zeek Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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    Matt, I have told you why I believe it is important to support Israel based on a number of texts in the Bible, I have also explained that as Christians we have a debt to the Jewish people, and strongly suggested if we understood the heart of G-d to the Jews whom He chose, then we would align ourselves with His attitude.

    If you don't believe that is what Scripture says and need to be 're-explained' then that is up to you...if you believe I am theologically out in left field, that is fine, but I have sincerely given you the evidence, and will happily lay more before you.

    In this thread one can't help but touch on other issues, that are not so much a side-track as an addenda that form an integral part of discussing and arguing about the issues at stake...you have ducked out of explaining to me how the Scriptures you gave clearly demonstrate the 'teaching of the Church is perfect'...it is relevant, because it sets a precedent of how and why you view things the way you do.

    I exercise faith when I read the Bible...in other words I trust that the Holy Spirit is going to illuminate my understanding. When I get to some deeper issues I consult books by learned and gifted men, or I ask those that have a degree of spiritual authority or the wisdom of study and experience...I also discuss things the whole time with my brethren...just like I am doing now. So in answer to your question (again) I do my best to check and double check everything, but more importantly to live out the Bible and be obedient to the Word of G-d.

    I don't ever claim to be right....what I claim is to teach what I have been taught from the Bible myself, and if I am wrong on an issue I expect the Holy Spirit to make it evident to me at some stage possibly through any of the methods I have already mentioned, including friends, reading and ministries. I like that bit in Acts 18:26 where the very gifted teacher Apollos was taken aside by Priscilla and Aquila and explained the Word more accurately, and I find that through the years ones understanding on certain things get better rounded, has more depth and better clarity.

    I won't get onto the Cult thing again as you are too ungracious in your reply and don't seem to grasp the differences.

    you said....
    I don't think again you have an understanding of Scripture on this point, because your argument is against what is clearly stated again and again.

    1 Cor 12:27 Now you are Christ&#8217;s body, and individually members of it.

    Rom 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one
    body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

    Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body

    You have some very weird ideas about Christians that don't come from the same tradition as you do, its almost as if you don't see us as part of the Body of Christ because we don't happen to be Orthodox...which if you follow it to its logical conclusion...means you are right in everything and everyone else is not. (this is the strong impression I get, and have also had with some Catholic brethren).

    You ask for evidence of Christianity being divided since its inception...well just look at Paul castigating the Corinthians and trying to sort out their mess...or at Galatians where he despairs of them getting back under the Law...or have a look in Revelations where 7 Christian communities are pin-pointed by the Spirit and already they have major issues.
    Ecc 7:Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

    lastly you say....[QUOTE]no it isn't. all things are possible with God. we are talking about dogmatic differences, where is it in Scripture that some doctrines are improtant, and some are not?[/quote]

    You have doctrines within Orthodoxy that I do not accept regarding Mary, Angels and the Saints...that is not a salvation issue, I believe you have been misled by the traditions of men, but should I let an issue like that stop me from accepting you as my brother in Christ...whereas if you said you believed Jesus was an angelic being and not the Son as expressed throughout Scripture, then that would be a doctrine that differentiated between us on the very nature of our salvation and we would not be of the same faith.
     
  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no you haven't, because every one of those verses you had could be applied to the Church and not the nation state. all you are doing is stating that you are reading it right.

    and I said, that is not the point of this thread. if you like, ask it again, and I am sure many folks on here would love to tell you why the Church's iterpretation is the true one.

    and that is the problem, all of those cultists do that very same thing, all make the same claim that they are trusting the Holy Spirit, and look at how different the faiths are. every single one uses the Bible and their prayer to back up their wacky beliefs. so how can you do the very same thing, and be so convinced that you are correct and they are wrong?

    the problem here is that those letters were written to already established Churches, that the Apostles had already founded. St Paul in his letters was either correcting their mistakes, or telling them that they were on the right track (usually a combo of the two). the Church and her teaching preceeds the Scriptures.

    and St Paul was always there to correct their innovations, heresy, etc. he never said what you said, that there are these differences that don't matter, but some core ones that all Christians must believe. when they were wrong, he told them flat out that they were wrong. so he recalled them to what they had been previous taught. he did not just wash over their problems.


    no evidence that they are traditions of men, because, as pointed out, it stems from how one interprets the Bible. the problem is in interpretation. you continue to only repeat how correct you are. I never said you were not a Christian, but I also will not say that you are in the Church. for us, the role of Mary and the saints IS a salvation issue, and it is not minor.

    so again, what evidence do you have to show that how you read Israel's rebirth in the Bible is the real way, and that Christians should theologically support Israel?
     
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