WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

Obviously I don't.

Then I do not understand your past arguments. Anyhow it is ok if we have come to the same conclusions and are in agreement in the end.

Take Care

 

[GDL]

Good then why all the argument before when scripture was provided showing that Christians can depart the faith and lose their salvation? I take it that you do not believe in OSAS then.

Obviously I don't.

klute: FWIW, and with the intent of trying to be constructive, it's frequently hard to tell what you believe. It would be easier to read and understand you, if you'd simply answer some questions more simply, yes, no, "obviously I don't" was a good one. I think what is obvious is that LGW asked you the above quoted question for this same reason. If I'm wrong, he can correct me.

 

[Trivalee]

This was explained. . .twice.

"Onus"? . . .to preserve his sons?!!
Is it an "onus" to preserve your children from harm with warnings?

More knowledge of Scripture reveals:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Also in 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

Explained. . .twice.

You completely refused to address the passages I posted to debunk your doctrine. I see you are fixated on your position.

I wish you well...

 

[Clare73]

You completely refused to address the passages I posted to debunk your doctrine. I see you are fixated on your position.

Contrare. . .

You refused to address the passages of my post you quoted immediately above in your post #1183.

However your passages, in the post following:

Please review and address the under listed:
1. Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2. Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
3. Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
4. Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone, a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
5. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The recurring theme in these texts is "he that endures/overcomes to the end". The NT is full of similar exhortations to the saved. It will be superfluous to quote them all because the above is sufficient for the objective mind.
There is a requirement from these scriptures for the saved to exercise their free will to persevere, abide, endure or overcome the trials and tribulations inherent in the Christian journey in other to enjoy eternal life in the next age. IOW, the responsibility is on the saved to ENDURE to the end of his pilgrim journey on earth!

were addressed in the following response:

True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" (v.6)... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9)

These warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy (unto perdition). The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away" (Hebrews 6:6)... "For if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26).

So actually, it is the passages in my post, which you quoted in post #1183 immediately above, that have not been addressed. . .and that being because "you are fixed on your position?"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

YES OR NO BECAUSE...

Guys I think it is good if we can be upfront with what we believe when asked questions so there is no misunderstandings between anyone here. Generally, I believe most of the thread has been constructive but I see there is opportunity for misunderstandings when questions are not simply answered. I do also understand that sometime more than a yes/no answer is required but if this is the case we can state either yes "because....." or no "because....." This might be helpful to avoid any misunderstandings between everyone.

God bless.

 

[GDL]

True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" (v.6)... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9)

These warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy (unto perdition). The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away" (Hebrews 6:6)... "For if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26).

Clare, this is not really addressed to you specifically. I'm just using your readily available post and not certain where these statements originated. Just a few comments from the opposing point of view:

• I agree that "True believers" (which I'd in part identify as those who abide as commanded) will rightly fear these warnings and thus that they are instructive and assist in our preservation. I agree some will fear them because they are real warnings and those who fear are real, abiding Christians
• The problem with fearing warnings that are not real, is that they end up being meaningless as far as consequences go. As I look through history as God has written it - which the author of Hebrews does - God's warnings are real and He is to be accordingly feared.
• This is all very basic and reasonable so far. Any parent or person in authority knows empty threats are meaningless and that's it's best not to make them - it'll ultimately damage or destroy your authority.
• To say there is nothing in these passages stating any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy unto perdition:

• Is in a sense redundant. And this is part of where our debates get centered. Will a genuine follower of Christ abide as commanded? In my view, yes. So, I'd try to come up with different terminology for one who may [genuinely?] follow for a time vs. one who genuinely abides in following. Or I'd just rephrase similarly to how I just did. This is part of the reason why I previously put forth Luke 8. Jesus dealt with these issues in part in His teaching of the parable that most will just eisegete their favored soteriology back into.

• Is not a real argument and can just as easily be matched with: There is nothing in these passages stating any genuine follower will NOT actually commit apostasy unto perdition. In fact, the simple and straight-forward reading is that there are some who will commit apostasy. That's the reason for the clear warning from God who does not issue empty warnings - ask Adam. Or, in context, look at what we do with unproductive thorns & thistles (Hebrews 6 context) and look at the death penalty prescribed in the Mosaic Law for those who rejected it (Hebrews 10 context). Burning and death do not look like empty threats, but realities not to be tested.

• Regarding conditional, hypothetical and who will actually do what's warned against doing:

• Sure, these warnings are hypothetical in the sense of being conditional. IF we do not grow up as commanded, and IF we do not heed God's commands such as those in Hebrews 10:22-25, which BTW end with another growing up context, then there are various levels of consequences including what these verses speak of. God warns us of all of them and commands us what to do to not suffer them. It always goes back to being His abiding, obedient, faithful, growing up children, like our First-Born Brother who learned obedience from the things He suffered and became perfected (also in Hebrews).

• It is clearly revealed in those passages in the context who may commit apostasy: In Hebrews 6, in context, it's the infants under discussion in Hebrews 5 who do not heed command and instruction to grow up and then at some point, face God's not permitting their growth, and who fall away. The same contextual process can easily be used to identify who the potential candidates are for Hebrews 10:26. It's all in context, and there are at least 3 commands that precede verse 26. All these commands are made to Christians and Christians have choice to obey in God's empowerment or disobey and possibly fall away. Also, nowhere in the Scriptures is continuous willful sin treated lightly. Part of the cure for this is what's being discussed in Hebrews 5-6. The infants per 5:13 are unlearned and unskilled in the "word of righteousness." All unrighteousness is sin, and sin is lawlessness according to 1 John. It's all just disobedience in the end and thus it's not faith (Hebrews 3 covers this) and it's not love (John14; 1 John4-5). Is it any wonder that the perpetually unlearned and unskilled infants continue in willful sin? We ought to be joining the learned who are teaching us these things and be telling the infants they best grow up. Part of this is covered in Hebrews 10 in the 3rd preceding command re: assembly.

 

[Trivalee]

Contrare. . .

You refused to address the passages of my post quoted immediately above in your post #1183.

However your passages, in the post following:

were addressed in the following response:

True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" (v.6)... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9)

These warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy (unto perdition). The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away" (Hebrews 6:6)... "For if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26).

So actually, it is the passages in my post, which you quoted in post #1183 immediately above, that have not been addressed. . .and that being because "you are fixed on your position?"

I have taken time to review your posts and I disagree with you.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, this is not really addressed to you specifically. I'm just using your readily available post and not certain where these statements originated. Just a few comments from the opposing point of view:

• I agree that "True believers" (which I'd in part identify as those who abide as commanded) will rightly fear these warnings and thus that they are instructive and assist in our preservation. I agree some will fear them because they are real warnings and those who fear are real, abiding Christians
• The problem with fearing warnings that are not real, is that they end up being meaningless as far as consequences go. As I look through history as God has written it - which the author of Hebrews does - God's warnings are real and He is to be accordingly feared.
• This is all very basic and reasonable so far. Any parent or person in authority knows empty threats are meaningless and that's it's best not to make them - it'll ultimately damage or destroy your authority.
• To say there is nothing in these passages stating any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy unto perdition:

• Is in a sense redundant. And this is part of where our debates get centered. Will a genuine follower of Christ abide as commanded? In my view, yes. So, I'd try to come up with different terminology for one who may [genuinely?] follow for a time vs. one who genuinely abides in following. Or I'd just rephrase similarly to how I just did. This is part of the reason why I previously put forth Luke 8. Jesus dealt with these issues in part in His teaching of the parable that most will just eisegete their favored soteriology back into.

• Is not a real argument and can just as easily be matched with: There is nothing in these passages stating any genuine follower will NOT actually commit apostasy unto perdition. In fact, the simple and straight-forward reading is that there are some who will commit apostasy. That's the reason for the clear warning from God who does not issue empty warnings - ask Adam. Or, in context, look at what we do with unproductive thorns & thistles (Hebrews 6 context) and look at the death penalty prescribed in the Mosaic Law for those who rejected it (Hebrews 10 context). Burning and death do not look like empty threats, but realities not to be tested.

• Regarding conditional, hypothetical and who will actually do what's warned against doing:

• Sure, these warnings are hypothetical in the sense of being conditional. IF we do not grow up as commanded, and IF we do not heed God's commands such as those in Hebrews 10:22-25, which BTW end with another growing up context, then there are various levels of consequences including what these verses speak of. God warns us of all of them and commands us what to do to not suffer them. It always goes back to being His abiding, obedient, faithful, growing up children, like our First-Born Brother who learned obedience from the things He suffered and became perfected (also in Hebrews).

• It is clearly revealed in those passages in the context who may commit apostasy: In Hebrews 6, in context, it's the infants under discussion in Hebrews 5 who do not heed command and instruction to grow up and then at some point, face God's not permitting their growth, and who fall away. The same contextual process can easily be used to identify who the potential candidates are for Hebrews 10:26. It's all in context, and there are at least 3 commands that precede verse 26. All these commands are made to Christians and Christians have choice to obey in God's empowerment or disobey and possibly fall away. Also, nowhere in the Scriptures is continuous willful sin treated lightly. Part of the cure for this is what's being discussed in Hebrews 5-6. The infants per 5:13 are unlearned and unskilled in the "word of righteousness." All unrighteousness is sin, and sin is lawlessness according to 1 John. It's all just disobedience in the end and thus

• it's not faith (Hebrews 3 covers this) and it's not love (John14; 1 John4-5). Is it any wonder that the perpetually unlearned and unskilled infants continue in willful sin? We ought to be joining the learned who are teaching us these things and be telling the infants they best grow up. Part of this is covered in Hebrews 10 in the 3rd preceding command re: assembly.

Hebrews deals with new Hebrew Christians who were considering returning to Judaism and not going into God's full-time salvation rest in Jesus Christ, as those who rebelled in the dessert in Numbers 14 refused to go into Canaan's rest (Hebrews 3:7-11) from their enemies (Joshua 1:13).
The warnings in Hebrews are in reference to their thereby rejecting the one and only sacrifice for their sin in Christ's atoning sacrifice, while crucifying him all over again and remaining in their unforgiven sin.

 

[Clare73]

I have taken time to review your posts and I disagree with you.

Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.

The following Scriptures have not been addressed by you in regards to the born again falling away:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Also in 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

 

[GDL]

Hebrews deals with new Hebrew Christians who were considering returning to Judaism and not going into God's full-time salvation rest in Jesus Christ, as those who rebelled in the dessert in Numbers 14 refused to go into Canaan's rest (Hebrews 3:7-11) from their enemies (Joshua 1:13).
The warnings in Hebrews are in reference to their thereby rejecting the one and only sacrifice for their sin in Christ's atoning sacrifice, while crucifying him all over again and remaining in their unforgiven sin.

And therefore, there is absolutely nothing applicable to gentile Christians in the letter and we can ignore it, know that all the instruction and command about advance to an explained maturity and warnings about perpetual infancy do not apply to us, know all the instruction about the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ and all of its benefits only concern Hebrew Christians, know all the instruction about the end of the old system and conscience that can now be perfected does not apply, disregard all the information about faith, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on.... And then there's that other Scripture elsewhere that we can ignore that says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ and that we who believe in Christ are all children of Abraham, and........... And then there are those gentiles and Jews who were being "Judaized" to go back into that old system, so I'm sure none of that information was allowed to be given to other than Hebrew Christians unless the Apostle to the Gentiles taught them in another document or meeting.

BTW, Hebrews contains some of the main instruction about Christ's glory and His metachoi - companions - partners - those who will reign with Him. Dear God, do we need to throw that out too?

James was written to the 12 tribes and Peter's addressees were diaspora Jews also. So out goes those too. Most if not all the epistles are addressed to specific congregations to deal with specific situations therein.

We're far removed from all of this and I'm thankful to be instructed by all Scripture, including that big portion that preceded the New Covenant Writings, that had a very Jewish audience as I recall.

Please pardon the sarcasm, Clare, but you for one knows it does surface periodically. I know you can dish too, so last word on this topic is yours.

 

[Clare73]

Hebrews deals with new Hebrew Christians who were considering returning to Judaism and not going into God's full-time salvation rest in Jesus Christ, as those who rebelled in the dessert in Numbers 14 refused to go into Canaan's rest (Hebrews 3:7-11) from their enemies (Joshua 1:13).
The warnings in Hebrews are in reference to their thereby rejecting the one and only sacrifice for their sin in Christ's atoning sacrifice, while crucifying him all over again and remaining in their unforgiven sin.

And therefore, there is absolutely nothing applicable to gentile Christians in the letter and we can ignore it, know that all the instruction and command about advance to an explained maturity and warnings about perpetual infancy do not apply to us, know all the instruction about the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ and all of its benefits only concern Hebrew Christians, know all the instruction about the end of the old system and conscience that can now be perfected does not apply, disregard all the information about faith, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on.... And then there's that other Scripture elsewhere that we can ignore that says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ and that we who believe in Christ are all children of Abraham, and........... And then there are those gentiles and Jews who being "Judaized" to go back into that old system, so I'm sure none of that information was allowed to be given to other than Hebrew Christians unless the Apostle to the Gentiles taught them in another document or meeting.

If you say so. . .don't see why all the doctrine the author presented to those new Hebrew Christians to convince them of God's plan in Christ, so that they would not fail to enter their salvation rest in Christ as their ancestors refused to enter their Canaan rest and so were denied God's rest, should be ignored by Gentiles. . .but whatever

BTW, Hebrews contains some of the main instruction about Christ's glory and His metachoi - companions - partners - those who will reign with Him. Dear God, do we need to throw that out too?

James was written to the 12 tribes and Peter's addressees were diaspora Jews also. So out goes those too. Most if not all the epistles are addressed to specific congregations to deal with specific situations therein.

We're far removed from all of this and I'm thankful to be instructed by all Scripture, including that big portion that preceded the New Covenant Writings, that had a very Jewish audience as I recall.

Please pardon the sarcasm, Clare, but you for one knows it does surface periodically. I know you can dish too, so last word on this topic is yours.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So what is everyone's view on this question?

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

God bless

 

[GDL]

So what is everyone's view on this question?

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

God bless

Yes.

To minimally clarify:

Yes, we can depart the Faith and Yes, we can go from being a Believer to being an unbeliever.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes. To minimally clarify: Yes, we can depart the Faith and Yes, we can go from being a Believer to being an unbeliever.

I think we have shown enough scripture in this thread to prove this now Gary without any reasonable doubt. Did you want to add anything else here? My view is that if a believer or someone who was once a Christian can depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin then there is no such thing as once saved always saved because Gods 'Word is conditional to believing and obeying what Gods' Word says in the present tense till the end of our time here on earth..

God bless

 

[GDL]

I think we have shown enough scripture in this thread to prove this now Gary without any reasonable doubt. Did you want to add anything else here? My view is that if a believer or someone who was once a Christian can depart the faith and return to a life of known unrepentant sin then there is no such thing as once saved always saved because Gods 'Word is conditional to believing and obeying what Gods' Word says in the present tense till the end of our time here on earth..

God bless

God is working in Christ to create and raise His other Children to both desire and become increasingly, lastingly, willingly obedient / faithful / loving to Him and thereby loving to one another, and thereby increasingly like Him and their first-born brother and Lord. He trains and disciplines those He loves so they can share His holiness and eternality, but He does not force anyone and take away their free will to choose who and what they will ultimately follow.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Here's some observations concerning the [below] statement from post #1186 :

"True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" (v.6)... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9)

These warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy (unto perdition). The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away" (Hebrews 6:6)... "For if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26)."


In GDL's attempt to refute the various truth claims associated with [the above] statement he replied:

"The problem with fearing warnings that are not real, is that they end up being meaningless as far as consequences go. As I look through history as God has written it - which the author of Hebrews does - God's warnings are real and He is to be accordingly feared."

My response :

If you are asserting that the consequences of failure to heed the warnings of apostasy aren't real according to the initially quoted statement ... then you have created a classic "straw man" argument. A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. Where in that statement is it asserted that the warnings aren't real? .... nowhere. If you are not saying that the statement denies the warnings of apostasy were/are real, then my apologies, that's just the way I understood your statement [in that case you can just ignore my remaining explanation].

Let me further illustrate the truth claims contained in that statement:

For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

Now let's apply this to he opening truth claims contained in the statement ...

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that accompany failure to do so.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, will actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.

(5) The warning passages [scattered throughout the scriptures] are just one of the many means [for example - His Chastisements - Hebrews 12:6] that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although Hebrews 6 & 10 does not provide compelling evidence [by and in themselves] for this claim ... other passages accomplish that. I believe the truth claims provided in the statement provide the best explanation of those texts as it pertains to the issue of the eternal security of the believer.


GDL replied, "There is nothing in these passages stating any genuine follower will NOT actually commit apostasy unto perdition."

My reply :

Agreed, however, it was LoveGodsWord that used Hebrews 6 & 10 as evidence to support the theory that some genuine believers will lose their Heavenly inheritance. The statement simply offered what I believe to be the correct perspective of those passages [Hebrews 6 & 10] ... not as evidence that no genuine believer will ever lose their Heavenly inheritance.


GDL stated, "Also, nowhere in the Scriptures is continuous willful sin treated lightly"

My reply :

Agreed, however, if you are asserting that any genuine believer will actually live a lifestyle of willful, unrepentant sin, then I believe that you are mistaken. Again, if that's not what you are saying, my apologies [and just disregard my further explanation]. Whosoever sinneth that is, habitually, deliberately, characteristically, and finally. - Doddridge. "Who habitually and avowedly sinneth."

1 John 3:9,"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Here we discover the main reason why true believers will ultimately persevere and receive their heavenly inheritance.

I agree with Albert Barnes comments on this glorious promise of God:

" He who is born again will not sin finally, or will not fall away. "His seed remaineth in him," 1 John 3:9. See the notes at that verse. There is a principle of grace by which he will ultimately be restrained and recovered. This, it seems to me, is fairly implied in the language used by John; for if a person might be a Christian, and yet wholly fall away and perish, how could it be said with any truth that such a man "sinneth not;" how that "he doth not commit sin;" how that "his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin?" Just the contrary would be true if this were so.

For a more complete explanation of 1 John 3:9, see post #61 - page 4 - bottom half of post < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God is working in Christ to create and raise His other Children to both desire and become increasingly, lastingly, willingly obedient / faithful / loving to Him and thereby loving to one another, and thereby increasingly like Him and their first-born brother and Lord. He trains and disciplines those He loves so they can share His holiness and eternality, but He does not force anyone and take away their free will to choose who and what they will ultimately follow.

I like how you have phrased where God is leading us. So salvation is from sin not disobedience to sin. God's salvation therefore is restoring us and making us once more in His image. God is love as it is written in the scripture and those who do not love do not know God. This I believe is true salvation and the fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise in those who believe and have been born again to walk in His Spirit. They walk as he walked and love as he loved and love obeys Gods Word from the heart.

God bless

 

[Clare73]

I am asking you for clarification before I answer you so I understand what your trying to say and what you believe. Can you help me here rather than repeat what you posted already?

No, I can't . . .I've stated it as completely and clearly as I know how in the following post.
And it is that statement taken at its word, as it is, that I am asking you to quote what you disagree with.

So you don't intend to quote that with which you disagree in my following post?

"True faith saves.
True faith obeys.

But it is not faith's obedience which saves, it is only faith itself, apart from faith's works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2).

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)
For God neither gives his glory to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8).

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3)." (end of post)

And in my post above, I have not conflated Biblical justification and sanctification there, as is seen in the following:

(Righteousness of) Justification (dikaiosis) = declared/pronounced "not guilty" by God, Christ's righteousness imputed (Romans 3:21), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17) was imputed to Abraham because of faith (Genesis 5:16; Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5)--"righteousness" as in Romans 1:17, 3:20-22, 24, 4:3-6, 9, 13, 22, 8:10, 9:30, 10:3; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 3:9, 5:21; Galatians 2:21, 3:6, 11, 21; Hebrews 10:38, 11:7; James 2:23; 2 Peter 2:21, 3:13

(Righteousness of) Sanctification (hagiasmos) = set apart, from sin and to God in one's life and practice--"righteousness" as in Acts 24:25; Romans 6:13, 16, 18-20; Ephesians 4:24, 5:9; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22, 3:16, 4:9; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 5:13, 12:11; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:29, 3:7

And since sanctification (righteousness) is the fruit of justification (righteousness)--Philippians 1:11,
the word righteousness sometimes means both--"righteousness" as in Romans 14:17; 2 Corinthians 6:7, 14; Ephesians 6:14; James 5:16; 1 Peter 3:12.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, I can't . . .I've stated it as completely and clearly as I know how in the following post.
And it is that statement taken at its word, as it is, that I am asking you to quote what you disagree with.

So you don't intend to quote that with which you disagree in my following post?

"True faith saves.
True faith obeys.

But it is not faith's obedience which saves, it is only faith itself, apart from faith's works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2).

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)
For God neither gives his glory to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8).

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3)." (end of post)

And in my post above, I have not conflated Biblical justification and sanctification there, as is seen in the following:

(Righteousness of) Justification (dikaiosis) = declared/pronounced "not guilty" by God, Christ's righteousness imputed (Romans 3:21), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17) was imputed to Abraham because of faith (Genesis 5:16; Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5)--"righteousness" as in Romans 1:17, 3:20-22, 24, 4:3-6, 9, 13, 22, 8:10, 9:30, 10:3; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 3:9, 5:21; Galatians 2:21, 3:6, 11, 21; Hebrews 10:38, 11:7; James 2:23; 2 Peter 2:21, 3:13

(Righteousness of) Sanctification (hagiasmos) = set apart, from sin and to God in one's life and practice--"righteousness" as in Acts 24:25; Romans 6:13, 16, 18-20; Ephesians 4:24, 5:9; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22, 3:16, 4:9; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 5:13, 12:11; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:29, 3:7

And since sanctification (righteousness) is the fruit of justification (righteousness)--Philippians 1:11,
the word righteousness sometimes means both--"righteousness" as in Romans 14:17; 2 Corinthians 6:7, 14; Ephesians 6:14; James 5:16; 1 Peter 3:12.

I do agree that "true faith saved and true faith obeys what Gods' Word says. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).

Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

I do agree that "true faith saved and true faith obeys what Gods' Word says. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).

Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12

Take Care.

Thanks!

So since you quote nothing with which you disagree, we are in agreement.

That's really nice.