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Clare73

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I will address your claims in detail shortly as I do not believe they are biblical but happy to show why from the scriptures if it might be helpful. You posts demonstrate a lot of confusion as in a previous post you stated you agreed with everything posted in post # 1199 linked and now you say you disagree so I am getting mixed messages or have you changed your mind again?

Your response here...
My "everything you said above" meant your quoted comments from post #1288 to which I was responding.

I agree with your post #1288. I did not say I agreed with your post #1199.
In my post #1212, I presented some of the inaccuracies of your post #1199.

It's not confusing, unless you need it to be so.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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My "everything you said above" meant your quoted comments from post #1288 to which I was responding.

I agree with your post #1288. I did not say I agreed with your post #1199.
In my post #1212, I presented some of the inaccuracies of your post #1199.

It's not confusing, unless you need it to be so.
You were quoting directly from
LoveGodsWord wrote: Now, I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. So can I take it that you agree with my earlier response in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because... :)
Your response was...
I agree with everything you say above, is that the same thing?
There was no inaccuracies in post # 1199 linked that I am aware of but I will look at what you have posted shortly when I have more time to check if your claims are true or not true.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Galatians 2:21 (KJV)
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
When we turn salvation partly to ourselves then you frustrate the grace of God!
Hello dear friend. No one is telling you to get your righteousness from the law.
 
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Clare73

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You were quoting directly from
Your response was
That was all explained in post #1221. . .

So you don't intend to address my post #1212?

I thought I saw that coming in your post #1213.

But then there was post #1219:
I will address your claims in detail shortly as I do not believe they are biblical but happy to show why from the scriptures if it might be helpful.

But turns out I was spot on after all!

Curiouser and curiouser. . .

Do you even read responses to you?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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That was all explained in post #1221. . .

So you don't intend to address my post #1212?

I thought I saw that coming in your post #1213.

But then there was post #1219:

But turns out I was spot on after all!

Curiouser and curiouser. . .

Do you read responses to you?

What makes you think I have no intentions of addressing your post when past history has always shown I have always addressed your posts with detailed scripture responses? I am only asking for clarification so I do not misunderstand what you are trying to say, because your earlier posts stated you were in full agreement with everything that was said to you in post # 1199 linked as shown in post # 1222 linked. Sorry I am finding your posts confusing and a little hard to follow but if you have changed your mind now I am happy to discuss what you posted afterwards if you like although it seemed like a contradiction to me so I was asking for clarification so there was no misunderstandings.
 
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Clare73

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What makes you think I have no intentions of addressing your post when past history has always shown I have always addressed your posts with detailed scripture responses?
I dunno'. . .it seemed like the thing at the time.
I am only asking for clarification so I do not misunderstand what you are trying to say, because your earlier posts stated you were in full agreement with everything that was said to you in n post # 1199 linked as shown in post # 1222 linked.
For the third time, I am telling you I do not and did not agree with your #post 1199.

Rather, I addressed your post #1199 (in my post #1212), to which you have not responded.
Sorry I am finding your posts confusing and a little hard to follow but if you have changed your mind now I am happy to discuss what you posted afterwards if you like although it seemed like a contradiction to me so I was asking for clarification so there was no misunderstandings.
Are you going to address my post #1212 (which comments on your post #1199)?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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For the third time, I am telling you I do not and did not agree with your #post 1199.
Well I only quoted what you said as shown in post # 1222 linked where you stated in your own words that you were in full agreement with post # 1199 linked so that is where all the confusion has come from I guess and is why I was asking for clarification so I did not have any misunderstandings as to what you were saying. As to your other question, yes I will address your post with a detailed response as it is an easy one when I have a little more time.

Take Care.
 
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Clare73

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Well I only quoted what you said as shown in as shown in post # 1222 linked where you stated in your own words that you were in full agreement with post # 1199 linked so that is where all the confusion has come from I guess and is why I was asking for clarification so I did not have any misunderstandings as to what you were saying. As to your other question, yes I will address your post with a detailed response as it is an easy one when I have a little more time.

Take Care.
Another wall of Scripture is not a response to my post.

Ours is not to set the texts into opposing truths against each other.

Our is to resolve the texts into the one Scriptural truth in agreement with all the texts under consideration.

So whatever texts you present, please show how all the texts under consideration agree.
 
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enoob57

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the Bible is very clear to the folks that believe works are necessary for salvation:
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


What is the relationship of faith, works, and security in salvation? | GotQuestions.org

All peoples should be sure of their salvation 'NOW' according to God's Word
Romans 8:16 (KJV)
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


If you are not experiencing this assurance, find out from God 'why'!
 
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Rapture Bound

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enoob57 stated [post #1229], "All peoples should be sure of their salvation 'NOW' according to God's Word."

My Reply :

Yes indeed, settling this question within ourselves is of uttermost importance!!

The problem is... many of those who believe that some genuine believers will lose [forfeit] their salvation agree that the believer can have assurance. However, they don't believe this assurance includes a "future tense assurance." That is to say, they claim that this assurance can only be a present possession, but believers are yet in some type of "probationary standing" in which they may yet fail to inherit what God has promised them [concerning their Heavenly inheritance ... future tense]. And if what they are saying is true, they cannot even logically claim to possess assurance that they will "remain saved" come next week or even tomorrow for that matter!

The real question to ponder is, "Were genuine believers simply put in a position of possibly or potentially gaining an entrance into Heaven when they were regenerated and justified before God by believing on Jesus' blood sacrifice? ... or was a future entrance into Heaven actualized and realized when they experienced regeneration and justification? It is very plain to see that the latter is the gospel truth.. it is truly the Good News that the Creator of the universe legitimately offers to all!"

To use an illustration - What if a friend of mine was to say to me, "Today I've received Jesus as my Lord and Savior! I've placed all my faith and hope in His atoning work for the forgiveness of my sins; it's like a ten ton weight has been lifted off of me!!"? ...
Should I respond by saying, "Praise God for this amazing news, I hope and pray that you make it to Heaven someday, I hope that you realize that you are still on probation even after God has saved you?" ... I certainly hope not.

Now, it may be true that I may wonder if he or she truly placed their faith in Christ's atoning work on their behalf, and have asked for forgiveness solely on that basis. And, I may anxiously await to see if their are any fruits or evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence subsequent to my friend's profession of faith. But once again, the question revolves full circle back to question of genuineness. Was that person's faith truly "saving", was their faith directed, and placed upon the proper object of faith?... that being Christ's atoning work and His righteousness alone apart from anything that they can offer.

The real question at hand here is NOT, "will any person who has been justified before God lose or forfeit that position?"...but rather, "did that person ever experience the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and a justified standing before God?" The denial or misunderstanding of my truth claims concerning the genuineness of a believer's faith lies at the root of much of the confusion that exists in many of the minds of those within the "LOS" [Loss of Salvation] camp. I provide compelling evidence for my claims in my post #55 - page 3 on my thread < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Though the Reformers said much about faith, even to the point of calling their message of justification “the doctrine of faith,” their interest was not of the modern kind. It was not subject-centered but object-centered, not psychological but theological, not anthropocentric but Christocentric. The Reformers saw faith as a relationship, not to oneself, but to the living Christ of the Bible, and they fed faith in themselves and in others by concentrating on that Christ as the Savior and Lord by whom our whole life must be determined.

The faith of the individual must be seen as simply a means [the necessary sole instrument] of finding all one's hope outside oneself in the person and work of another; and not in any sense an originating cause or objective ground of justification. For this reason ["saving"] faith is exclusive and intolerant of company; it is only truly present when any and every contribution towards his salvation on the part of the believer is absolutely and unequivocally shut out.

Justification must be seen and received as a blessing dependent wholly and exclusively on Christ alone, on what He is and what he has done--a blessing enjoyed simply through being joined directly to him, through finding one's all in him, through drawing one's all from him, without the interposition of any other mediator or mediating channel whatever." This is to say it is "not faith in our faith" that justifies us, but rather it is our faith in the object of that faith - Christ and His meritorious atoning work on our behalf - that forever secures a right standing before God.

Failure to recognize this imputed or forensic aspect of justification along with the failure to properly distinguish between the roles of justification and sanctification within salvation are perhaps the two foremost contributing factors leading to a person's inability to gain assurance that they will receive a future Heavenly inheritance.

links - Distinctions between justification and sanctification :

Post #63 - page 4 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Post #92 - page 5 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Post #103 - page 6 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Post #124 - page 7 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
 
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Buzzard3

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Continuing from the above question...

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

HEBREWS 10:26-31
[26], (1-2) FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], (3) BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], (4) OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], (5) CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], (6) FOR YOU HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith:(7) BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...
  1. WE (BELIEVERS) can return back to a life of known unrepentant sin; HEBREWS 10:26
  2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
  3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
  4. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
  5. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
  6. (6). WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
  7. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38
.................

All the above of course are Gods' Word which compliments what the writer of Hebrews has already written about believers departing the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin in Hebrews 6:4-8 as shown earlier teaching us that a believer can receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and choose to reject it and depart the faith rejecting a knowledge or the truth of Gods' Word in order to return and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and unbelief. Departing the faith therefore as demonstrated above shows that a believer can depart God to return to become an unbeliever who no longer believes and follows what God's Word says to live a life in unbelief and unrepentant sin.

God bless you reader as you seek Him through His Word
Paul teaches that faith is not enough for salvation and implies that once-saved-always-saved is unbiblical nonsense - Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

No one knows for certain if they're saved or not until after we die and are judged by Christ. That's why salvation is described as a "hope" in more than twenty NT verses.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Paul teaches that faith is not enough for salvation and implies that once-saved-always-saved is unbiblical nonsense - Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.
No one knows for certain if they're saved or not until after we die and are judged by Christ. That's why salvation is described as a "hope" in more than twenty NT verses.

Hello Buzzard, yes there is many NT scriptures that describe God's gift of eternal life as hope while we are being tried *see Titus 3:1-7; Colossians 1:23; 1 John 3:3; 1 Peter 3:15; 1 Peter 1:21; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 6:11; Hebrews 3:14 and the end of our faith being eternal life. We have the hope of eternal life today through faith in Gods' Word. However we do not receive eternal life until the end after we have been tried and tested through temptation *James 1:12; Matthew 24:13. I believe however Paul teaches that faith is enough but true faith means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says *Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4. Sadly many will depart the faith when tested and return to unbelief and sin or follow and believe doctrines of devils according to Hebrews 10:26-39; Hebrews 6:4-8 or 1 Timothy 4:1
 
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Brightfame52

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Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12

This is false, sanctification is once and for all by the death of Christ Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

For the elect, whom Christ died, God has made Him to be unto them Sanctification 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
 
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LoveGodsWord

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This is false, sanctification is once and for all by the death of Christ Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

For the elect, whom Christ died, God has made Him to be unto them Sanctification 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Not really. False sanctification leads to disobedience to what Gods' Word says (see 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21). Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:4 through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says *1 Corinthians 15:34 and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12 and holiness *1 Peter 1:15-16. Justification which is Gods forgiveness for sin's past we receive through faith, is not the same as sanctification that also takes place by faith in Gods' Word as God work's through us, saving us from our sinful nature.

Take care
 
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enoob57

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This is false, sanctification is once and for all by the death of Christ Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

For the elect, whom Christ died, God has made Him to be unto them Sanctification 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
I understand you form your theology monergistically thus you would have to see this in that way... so at the judgment seat of Christ do you see Jesus judging Himself in what He did in you?
 
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LoveGodsWord [post #1234] said,

"Not really. False sanctification leads to disobedience to what Gods' Word says (see 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21). Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:4 through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says *1 Corinthians 15:34 and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12 and holiness *1 Peter 1:15-16. Justification which is Gods forgiveness for sin's past we receive through faith, is not the same as sanctification.

Take care"


My Reply :

You stated,
"Not really. False sanctification leads to disobedience to what Gods' Word says (see 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21)."

I would agree that a false sanctification will lead to disobedience; however, the issue here is not one of false sanctification, but rather genuine sanctification. Just as a false justification, that is, a counterfeit position of right-standing and forgiveness before God will prove to be useless, a false sanctification can only lead to disobedience, spiritual destruction, and continuance in an unregenerated state.

The failure to distinguish between the positional and progressive aspects of sanctification ranks among the foremost mistakes or blindspots of those among the LOS [loss of salvation] camp. Therefore, it lies at the core of the contentions between those who believe that genuine salvation will never be forfeited [or lost] by any regenerated person, and those [LOS] who assert that that circumstance will actualize in some.

Here are some links to posts where I provide the evidence for my claim that although justification and sanctification are components of salvation that must and will exist in all believers, there yet exists a critical distinction between them. Without a proper understanding or acknowlegment of this all-important scriptural distinction, a person's understanding of the term "justification" will be faulty [a mistake that can carry with it catastrophic eternal ramifications].

(1) [post #124] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

(2) [post #63] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

(3) [posts #92 & #98] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

(4) [post #103] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Keep in mind, that this issue was intrinsic to "The Great Divide" over of the doctrine of justification during the Protestant Reformation. Many do not realize that the RCC [Roman Catholic Church] position on this issue is that there is no distinction between positional and progressive sanctification. The RCC position is one that views justification, rather than sanctification, as being both positional and progressive in nature [this error, in IMHO, is the foremost reason why those who embrace the RCC position on justification cannot acheive assurance of their salvation since right standing before God is obviously progressively obtained (but never actually reached in this lifetime) by the performance of man rather than God (according to their model)].

Therefore, many who come under the label "Protestant" are in actuality agreeing with the RCC position by denying a distinction between justification and sanctification, or by denying a distinction between positional sanctification and progressive [practical/ongoing] sanctification. The bottom line is that a person must decide if justification is progressive in nature or if it pertains to a fixed status of right standing before God - that is, one that will inevitably result in a future glorified status in Heaven ... it really is that simple.


You stated, "Justification which is Gods forgiveness for sin's past we receive through faith, is not the same as sanctification."

Again I would agree with your assertion here. However, as demonstrated in the links provided in my above reply, since there is substantial scriptural evidence revealing that all those who have been positionally sanctified will inevitably experience a future glorified state in Heaven [as well as a progressive sanctification by the working of the Holy Spirit], it only logically follows that all who have been sanctified have also been justified. Progressive sanctification is truly the promised and guaranteed result in those who have experienced the dual states of justification and positional sanctification at their new birth event.
 
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Brightfame52

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Not really. False sanctification leads to disobedience to what Gods' Word says (see 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21). Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:4 through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says *1 Corinthians 15:34 and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12 and holiness *1 Peter 1:15-16. Justification which is Gods forgiveness for sin's past we receive through faith, is not the same as sanctification that also takes place by faith in Gods' Word as God work's through us, saving us from our sinful nature.

Take care
Do you deny that Heb 10:10 teaches that they were once and for all sanctified by the Death of Christ?
 
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Brightfame52

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I understand you form your theology monergistically thus you would have to see this in that way... so at the judgment seat of Christ do you see Jesus judging Himself in what He did in you?
I don't understand what you mean, you have lost me.
 
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In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

*So without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1) In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.
 
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Danthemailman

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Do you deny that Heb 10:10 teaches that they were once and for all sanctified by the Death of Christ?
The writer of Hebrews clearly states "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified.

To go from sanctified positionally in Christ back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction to verses 10 and 14.
 
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