WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[GDL]

GDL stated [post #1139],

"Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:
Does this person lose their salvation?
OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?"

My Reply :

The last two questions are based on a logical fallacy of the initial conditional statement ... "if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus". That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized. Therefore, the resulting questions become nonsensical [logically incoherent].

The initial conditional statement should be restated like this :

"if a person experiences a justified status in the eyes of God, can that person ever lose [forfeit] that position?"

I realize you like to speak of Justification, and you can ask what you like. Your question is a good one and ultimately is part of the discussion about belief and enduring belief.

However, to believe in Jesus [momentarily with lasting results] and to endure in believing in Jesus are 2 different things, so my premise is 2-fold and based upon the wording of the one who prompted the question. It also addresses your OJAJ (as I recall is your preference??).

So, again (and more precise): If a person believes in Jesus, and if this person does not endure in believing in Jesus:

• Does this person lose their salvation (justification (for you))?
• OR was this person never saved (justified (for you)) in the first place?

 

[Rapture Bound]

GDL [post #1141] replied
"So, again (and more precise): If a person believes in Jesus, and if this person does not endure in believing in Jesus:

• Does this person lose their salvation (justification (for you))?
• OR was this person never saved (justified (for you)) in the first place?"

My Reply :

Again ....the last two questions are based on a logical fallacy of the initial conditional statement ... "if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus". That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized. Therefore, the resulting questions become nonsensical [logically incoherent]... so how can you expect me to answer them?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

GDL stated [post #1139],

"Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:
Does this person lose their salvation?
OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?"

My Reply :

The last two questions are based on a logical fallacy of the initial conditional statement ... "if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus". That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized. Therefore, the resulting questions become nonsensical [logically incoherent].

The initial conditional statement should be restated like this :

"if a person experiences a justified status in the eyes of God, can that person ever lose [forfeit] that position?"

Unless I am misunderstanding what your saying, I believe Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 warning us not to depart the faith and return to unbelief and sin which puts us in the lot of the unbelieving wicked. This of course is Gods' Word not mine which is in disagreement with you here.

 

[GDL]

GDL [post #1141] replied
"So, again (and more precise): If a person believes in Jesus, and if this person does not endure in believing in Jesus:

• Does this person lose their salvation (justification (for you))?
• OR was this person never saved (justified (for you)) in the first place?"

My Reply :

Again ....the last two questions are based on a logical fallacy of the initial conditional statement ... "if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus". That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized. Therefore, the resulting questions become nonsensical [logically incoherent]... so how can you expect me to answer them?

Why don't we just approach it this way: Please explain your reasoning.

 

[klutedavid]

So, a Christian is a person who:

• Believes in Jesus (calls on the name of the Lord), and
• Does not stop believing in Jesus (continues to call on the name of the Lord)

• Yes, that is the dictionary definition of a Christian.

  Questions:

1. Does a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord:
   1. Continue to live a life of unrepentant sin?

1. 1. What is the difference between the sin that you commit every week of the year. And what you call, 'unrepentant sin'?
   2. I cannot really comment until you define the difference in the type of sin.

      [*]Grow in the knowledge and action of obeying God?

      Does the scripture say that you are saved; because you believe in Jesus. Or does the scripture say that, you must believe in Jesus and attain a level X of the knowledge of God? And achieve a level Y of action?

      [*]Do the good works God created him or her to do?

      Paul states we are a new creation and as such, we are created for good works. The works are not the reason for your salvation, salvation is by grace through faith. Good works should follow salvation. You need the Holy Spirit to exert a good work. The Holy Spirit is the confirmation, the seal of God upon you. Yet, we are always saved by the gospel of grace.

   [*]If a person says and continues to say they believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord, and does not obey God - obey Jesus Christ - does this person truly believe in Jesus / call on the name of the Lord?

   I think Jesus identifies a Christian by grace through faith. Then would look for the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, a believer will bear fruit, because that is the work of the Holy Spirit in and through that person. Unless of course, you believe that you can maintain your salvation yourself, perhaps even contribute to that act of salvation?

 

[Rapture Bound]

GDL [post #1144] stated, "Why don't we just approach it this way: Please explain your reasoning."

My Reply :

Reasoning concerning what? Please make your question specific [as it stands, your request is vague]. Perhaps you are asking me why I believe in OJAJ?, if that is the case, please ask
specific questions concerning justification ... generalities are extremely ineffective in these issues.

 

[klutedavid]

Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:

• Does this person lose their salvation?
• OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?

It should hold true given the definitions.

That if, a person believes in Jesus, then they are saved (Romans 10:9-13).

If a person does not believe in Jesus, then they are not saved but judged (John 3:18).

Therefore, it must be true, that a person whom once believed in Jesus, but now does not believe in Jesus. That person cannot be saved and remains under the initial, general judgement.

 

[BobRyan]

It didn't say that an unsaved person cannot be a partaker of the Holy Ghost

Lost people are not "Born again" and do not have the Spirit of Christ "in them". He works "on them" drawing them to Christ.

Rom 8:5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[BobRyan]

Once again, if a person believes in Jesus and does not endure in believing Jesus:

• Does this person lose their salvation?
• OR, Was this person never saved in the first place?

good point.

Failure to keep something is not a sign you never had anything to keep

 

[BobRyan]

It should hold true given the definitions.

That if, a person believes in Jesus, then they are saved (Romans 10:9-13).

If a person does not believe in Jesus, then they are not saved but judged (John 3:18).

Therefore, it must be true, that a person whom once believed in Jesus, but now does not believe in Jesus. That person cannot be saved and remains under the initial, general judgement.

So they are lost when they make that change noted above...

And so "fallen from grace"..."severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 once they turn

 

[GDL]

GDL [post #1144] stated, "Why don't we just approach it this way: Please explain your reasoning."

My Reply :

Reasoning concerning what? Please make your question specific [as it stands, your request is vague]. Perhaps you are asking me why I believe in OJAJ?, if that is the case, please ask
specific questions concerning justification ... generalities are extremely ineffective in these issues.

You can start with explaining this:

That is to say, the premise [conditional statement] will never be actualized

 

[klutedavid]

So they are lost when they make that change noted above...

And so "fallen from grace"..."severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 once they turn

Of course, this should hold given the Biblical definition of a Christian.

You must believe in Jesus to qualify for salvation in the first instance (Romans 10:9-13).

Unbelievers are subject to judgement (John 3:18).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Of course, this should hold given the Biblical definition of a Christian.

You must believe in Jesus to qualify for salvation in the first instance (Romans 10:9-13).

Unbelievers are subject to judgement (John 3:18).

Perhaps you might like to explain your view on what you think it means to "believe" in Jesus?

 

[klutedavid]

Perhaps you might like to explain your view on what you think it means to "believe" in Jesus?

I will use the Biblical definition.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[BobRyan]

Counterfeit faith can be wrecked, as in Matthew 7:21-23.

not a quote of Matt 7.

A broken straw cannot be broken... it already is.

One who is lost does not fall and become lost-er.

The Bible places no value on restoring a lost-er person to once again just being "lost"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will use the Biblical definition.
Romans 10:13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That is not the bible definition of what it means to believe in Jesus. The question I asked you was would you like to explain your view on what you think it means to "believe" in Jesus? See also post # 1137 in regards to "calling on the name of the Lord". I think you simply ignored it. If you do not want to answer the question asked of you of course you do not have to if you do not want to just say so. Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take care.

 

[klutedavid]

That is not the bible definition of what it means to believe in Jesus. The question I asked you was would you like to explain your view on what you think it means to "believe" in Jesus? See also post # 1137 in regards to "calling on the name of the Lord". I think you simply ignored it. If you do not want to answer the question asked of you of course you do not have to if you do not want to just say so. Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take care.

To 'believe' in the first century Koine Greek, to believe in someone, is to TRUST (pistis) someone.

 

[Clare73]

not a quote of Matt 7. . .

Strawman. . .it is an example of counterfeit faith.

A broken straw cannot be broken... it already is.

One who is lost does not fall and become lost-er.

The Bible places no value on restoring a lost-er person to once again just being "lost"

Elementary. . .it's not about falling into lostness, it's about the falling out of the counterfeit faith of the already lost.

Counterfeit faith does not save, but that doesn't mean one cannot fall out of his counterfeit faith into antitheism or unbelief.

 

[Rapture Bound]

LoveGodsWord replied [post #1143], "Unless I am misunderstanding what your saying, I believe Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 warning us not to depart the faith which is Gods' Word not mine is in disagreement with you here."

Yes, these warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy [unto perdition]. The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away - Hebrews 6:6 ... "For if we sin wilfully" - Hebrews 10:26.

For a fuller explanation of my response refer to my post #100 - page 5, on my thread,
< Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

 

[GDL]

Yes, that is the dictionary definition of a Christian.

Not sure what dictionary you'd be talking about. Care to identify it?

• What is the difference between the sin that you commit every week of the year. And what you call, 'unrepentant sin'?

• I cannot really comment until you define the difference in the type of sin

Continuous unrepentant sin was there in the contents of the question. You might find the concept of continuous practice of sin or such terminology depending upon what translation of the Bible you use.

Does the scripture say that you are saved; because you believe in Jesus. Or does the scripture say that, you must believe in Jesus and attain a level X of the knowledge of God? And achieve a level Y of action?

I simply asked if a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord grows in the knowledge and action of obeying God? Yes, no, maybe?

Paul states we are a new creation and as such, we are created for good works. The works are not the reason for your salvation, salvation is by grace through faith. Good works should follow salvation. You need the Holy Spirit to exert a good work. The Holy Spirit is the confirmation, the seal of God upon you. Yet, we are always saved by the gospel of grace.

Again, my question was simply: Does a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord do the good works God created him or her to do? Yes, no, maybe?

I think Jesus identifies a Christian by grace through faith. Then would look for the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, a believer will bear fruit, because that is the work of the Holy Spirit in and through that person. Unless of course, you believe that you can maintain your salvation yourself, perhaps even contribute to that act of salvation?

My question again: If a person says and continues to say they believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord, and does not obey God - obey Jesus Christ - does this person truly believe in Jesus / call on the name of the Lord?

It should hold true given the definitions.

That if, a person believes in Jesus, then they are saved (Romans 10:9-13).

If a person does not believe in Jesus, then they are not saved but judged (John 3:18).

Therefore, it must be true, that a person whom once believed in Jesus, but now does not believe in Jesus. That person cannot be saved and remains under the initial, general judgement.

Which one of the following should hold true:

• The person was saved and then lost salvation?
• OR the person never was saved?