WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[GDL]

If you are asserting that the consequences of failure to heed the warnings of apostasy aren't real according to the initially quoted statement ... then you have created a classic "straw man" argument. A "straw man" is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. Where in that statement is it asserted that the warnings aren't real? .... nowhere. If you are not saying that the statement denies the warnings of apostasy were/are real, then my apologies, that's just the way I understood your statement [in that case you can just ignore my remaining explanation].

My apologies if my answer was confusing. I believe the warnings are real and that the consequences for not heeding the warnings are real. I also see the author of Hebrews drawing on history to show how God dealt with those who did not heed His warnings and commands, so he can help us to conclude that God's warnings and consequences are real.

My point by analogy in this realm is that warnings will be tested. If the one in authority does not follow through with the stated consequences for not heeding the warnings, then the warnings and threats of consequences become meaningless, and the authority is destroyed and will be disregarded.

God's absolute authority is never destroyed, and His warnings are real, and His stated consequences are real.

I'm sure you can structure this into a logical statement that works for us.

As an added note, over time I've come to truly wonder ever deeper what drives people to work so hard to explain away God's warnings as if He never intends to follow through with the stated consequences for not heeding them.

I hope this clarifies what I think.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thanks! So since you quote nothing with which you disagree, we are in agreement. That's really nice.

Well if you agree with the post you are quoting from (post # 1199 linked) we are in agreement and as long as your not conflating justification and sanctification. There is really not much information in your post to know exactly what you believe to be honest which is why I was asking you questions for clarification that you would not answer in the other thread. So it is hard to know what you are actually saying to be honest Clare.

 

[Clare73]

Well if you agree with the post you are quoting from (post # 1199 linked) we are in agreement and as long as your not conflating justification and sanctification.

Do you think they are conflated in my explanation of each?

You seem to be conflating salvation and justification.
Salvation = payment of my debt for sin and sin's remission by faith in Jesus atoning work, thereby saving me from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

Justification = declared/pronounced "not guilty" by God because of faith which remitted my sin (above),
imputation/crediting of Christ's righteousness to me (Romans 3:21) as
God's righteousness (Romans 1:17) was imputed/credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Do you understand what I am saying above?

Do you see the difference between salvation and justification?
No righteousness is involved in salvation, only in justification.

Keeping in mind that these two, for all practical purposes, occur simultaneously.
So imputed righteousness is the outcome.

And then sanctification? = obedience which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

The righteousness of justification is Christ's righteousness imputed, while
the righteousness of sanctification is imparted (acquired in obedience).
No righteousness is involved in salvation, only forgiveness of sin and God's wrath removed, thereby qualifying one for imputation of Christ's righteousness.

There is really not much information in your post to know exactly what you believe to be honestly

My post presents only one point: the place of works in salvation, justification and sanctification.

which is why I was asking you questions for clarification that you would not answer in the other thread. So it is hard to know what you are actually saying to be honest Clare.

Is the above better?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you think they are conflated in my explanation of each?

You seem to be conflating salvation and justification.
Salvation = payment of my debt for sin and sin's remission by faith in Jesus atoning work, thereby saving me from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

Justification = declared/pronounced "not guilty" by God because of faith which remitted my sin (above),
imputation/crediting of Christ's righteousness to me (Romans 3:21) as
God's righteousness (Romans 1:17) was imputed/credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Do you understand what I am saying above?

Do you see the difference between salvation and justification?

And then sanctification? = obedience which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Keeping in mind that these three occur almost simultaneously.

The righteousness of justification is Christ's righteousness imputed, while
the righteousness of sanctification is imparted (acquired in obedience).
No righteousness is involved in salvation, only forgiveness of sin and God's wrath removed, thereby qualifying one for imputation of Christ's righteousness.

My post presents only one point: the place of works in salvation, justification and sanctification.

Is the above better?

So do you agree with what was posted to you in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

 

[Clare73]

Do you think they are conflated in my explanation of each?

You seem to be conflating salvation and justification.
Salvation = payment of my debt for sin and sin's remission by faith in Jesus atoning work, thereby saving me from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

Justification = declared/pronounced "not guilty" by God because of faith which remitted my sin (above),
imputation/crediting of Christ's righteousness to me (Romans 3:21) as
God's righteousness (Romans 1:17) was imputed/credited to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Do you understand what I am saying above?

Do you see the difference between salvation and justification?
No righteousness is involved in salvation, only in justification.

Keeping in mind that these two, for all practical purposes, occur simultaneously.
So imputed righteousness is the outcome.

And then sanctification? = obedience which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

The righteousness of justification is Christ's righteousness imputed, while
the righteousness of sanctification is imparted (acquired in obedience).
No righteousness is involved in salvation, only forgiveness of sin and God's wrath removed, thereby qualifying one for imputation of Christ's righteousness.

My post presents only one point: the place of works in salvation, justification and sanctification.

Is the above better?

So do you agree with what was posted to you in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

You don't understand my above post, do you?

One thing at a time. . .I want to get my post nailed down before we do anything else.

What do you think you are not getting there?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You don't understand my above post, do you?
One thing at a time. . .I want to get my post nailed down before we do anything else. What do you think you are not getting there?

I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you before I provide a detailed response to your post if needed. So can I take it that you agree with my response to your earlier post provided in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

 

[Clare73]

I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you before I provide a detailed response to your post if needed. So can I take it that you agree with my response to your earlier post provided in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

One thing at a time.

Ask about what you do not understand, as long as it takes to understand my post.
When this is off the table, then I can consider your post.

What do you think you are not getting in my post?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you before I provide a detailed response to your post if needed. So can I take it that you agree with my response to your earlier post provided in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

Your response here...

One thing at a time. Ask about what you do not understand, as long as it takes to understand my post. When this is off the table, then I can consider your post.

Well since you will not answer my questions for clarification or say if you are in agreement with my original response to your post in post # 1199 linked, I am going to address your post as to what I think it is saying. So lets do as you wish and we will start with your post first and then you can tell me if you agree with my response to you from post # 1199 linked.

Do you disagree with any of the following? If so, please quote what you disagree with. Feel free to respond in Salvation Lost thread. True faith saves. True faith obeys.

In post # 1199 linked, I told you that I agree with both of these statement providing scripture to show why I agree that true faith is saving faith and true faith obeys Gods Word.

But it is not faith's obedience which saves, it is only faith itself, apart from its works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This is where some clarification on your behalf might be required. However I agree that obedience to Gods' law alone does not save us. However obedience to Gods' law and His Word is the fruit of genuine faith that saves and obeys as per your earlier statements. The scripture here says that we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of your selves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9). So receiving God's grace is not separate from faith which obeys God's Word. The reason we receive Gods' grace is because we are all sinners in need of Gods salvation but the purpose of God's grace that we receive through faith that obeys, is to lead us to obey God as shown in Romans 1:5 which tells is that God's grace is for obedience to the faith (the Word) and again we read that this same grace that we receive through faith which obeys is to teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. - Titus 2:11-12. So once again Gods' grace is not separate from faith and faith is not separate from obedience to the faith (Gods' Word). So perhaps (just a suggestion) the correct way of stating what you said above should be what you stated the first time. That is genuine faith obeys. Grace and faith are for obedience to Gods' Word. Obedience does not save us, but faith and grace are not separate from obedience to the faith which leads us to obey Gods' Word and to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, so that we an live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" , his and his alone! Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! For God neither gives his glory to nor shares his glory with another!

Agreed we are all sinners in need of Christs salvation and His Spirit and without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5; Matthew 9:12-13; Matthew 7:13-23. God's salvation however is from sin because genuine faith as you stated earlier obeys Gods' Word which agrees with Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:3-4. God's salvation for fallen sinners (us) is His alone and which is why Paul says and this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Christ Jesus has come into the world to save sinners of who I am chief *1 Timothy 1:15.

Having been to the third heaven and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works, but which necessary obedience leads to righteousness leading to holiness of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer.

I think this statement requires some more work on your behalf as it is ambiguous and confusing to be honest in my personal opinion, which was one of the reasons I asked you for clarification earlier as it sounds here like your conflating justification with sanctification (I did not ask you for word meanings). We agree that genuine faith is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12). Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and walking in the power of Gods' Spirit through faith (Galatians 5:16) and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus and obedient to the faith as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says (see John 8:31-36) and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart. Obedience by faith therefore as posted earlier is the fruit of genuine faith that saves and obeys and is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12 until we have been tried and our time on earth is over.

Now, I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. So can I take it that you agree with my earlier response in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

it sounds here like your conflating justification with sanctification (I did not ask you for word meanings).

The Biblical definitions of the words "justification" and "sanctification" show why I am not conflating their meanings.
You either do not know those Biblical definitions, or you do not understand them.

Your response here...

Well since you will not answer my questions for clarification or say if you are in agreement with my original response to your post in post # 1199 linked, I am going to address your post with a detailed scripture response as to what I think it is saying.

In post # 1199 linked, I told you that I agree with both of these statement providing scripture to show why I agree that true faith is saving faith and true faith obeys Gods Word.

This is where some clarification on your behalf might be required. However I agree that obedience to Gods' law does not save us. However obedience to Gods' law and His Word is the fruit of genuine faith that saves and obeys as per your earlier statements. The scripture here says that we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of your selves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9). However this grace that we receive through saving faith that leads us to obey God we are also told in Romans 1:5 is for obedience to the faith (the Word) in Romans 1:5 and again

we read that this same grace that we receive through faith which obeys is to teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. So once again Gods' grace is not separate from faith that obeys Gods' Word. So the correct way of stating what you said above should be what you stated the first time. That is genuine faith obeys. Grace and faith are for obedience to Gods' Word. Obedience does not save us, but faith and grace are not separate from obedience to the faith which leads us to obey Gods' Word and to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, so that we an live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Yes, you are talking about sanctification here through obedience in the Holy Spirit. . .we are on the same page.
Obedience is for sanctification, not for salvation or justification.
Only true faith saves and justifies, and true faith obeys. But the obedience does not save or justify.
The obedience only sanctifies, which is what the Christian life is about.

From this it follows that, if there is no work of sanctification through obedience going on in one's life,
then one's faith is not true, which means it did not save,
which means one is still in their sin and unbelief.

Agreed we are all sinners in need of Christs salvation and His Spirit and without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5; Matthew 9:12-13; Matthew 7:13-23. God's salvation however is from sin because genuine faith as you stated earlier obeys Gods' Word which agrees with Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:3-4. God's salvation for fallen sinners (us) is His alone and which is why Paul says and this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Christ Jesus has come into the world to save sinners of who I am chief *1 Timothy 1:15.

Yes, salvation is from the penalty of sin and also from the power of sin, which means we will be set apart from sinning in our lives.

I think this statement requires some more work on your behalf as it is ambiguous and confusing to be honest which was one of the reasons I asked you for clarification earlier as it sounds here like your conflating justification with sanctification (I did not ask you for word meanings). We agree that genuine faith is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12). Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus and obedient to the faith as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is the fruit of genuine faith that saves and is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12.

Now, I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. So can I take it that you agree with my earlier response in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

I agree with everything you say above, is that the same thing?

I really like playing well together.

I think we may still have some work to do on salvation and justification.
See if you can understand my explanation of them based on their Biblical definitions (post #1203).

G'nite.

 

[Clare73]

I do agree that "true faith saved and true faith obeys what Gods' Word says. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved

"Obedience to God's law" is nebulous.

The law given to the people (Hebrews 7:11), that powerless and weak law (Romans 8:3), has been set aside because it was weak and useless and could make nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19),
while love is the fulfillment of the Decalogue "and any other commandment there my be." (Romans 13:8-10)

We are not under the supervision of the law in the NT (Galatians 3:25;1 Corinthians 9:20), it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
The NT is replete with specific instructions on how to live and practice the NT laws of love of God and love of neighbor (Romans 3:8-10).

So I need you to clarify specifically what law of God you are referring to, since much is no longer applicable, before I can evaluate if I agree with you or not in yours following.

because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
We are saved by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.
According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That's "obedience of faith."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Saving faith is believing in Jesus Christ.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
We are born again to believe in Jesus Christ and his atoning work.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Obedience to God's word as it is understood in the light of the NT.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"Obedience to God's law" is nebulous.

The law given to the people (Hebrews 7:11), that powerless and weak law (Romans 8:3), has been set aside because it was weak and useless and could make nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19),
while love is the fulfillment of the Decalogue "and any other commandment there my be." (Romans 13:8-10)

We are not under the supervision of the law in the NT (Galatians 3:25;1 Corinthians 9:20), it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
The NT is replete with specific instructions on how to live and practice the NT laws of love of God and love of neighbor (Romans 3:8-10).

So I need you to clarify specifically what law of God you are referring to, since much is no longer applicable, before I can evaluate if I agree with you or not in yours following.

You may want to attend to your formatting as your post is very hard to read and follow here.

 

[Clare73]

You may want to attend to your formatting as
your post is very hard to read and follow here.

Yes, it is. . .I fixed it.

I do agree that "true faith saved and true faith obeys what Gods' Word says. Faith according to James and Paul is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says *James 2:13-26; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 11:1-40. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved

"Obedience to God's law" is a nebulous phrase.

The law given to the people (Hebrews 7:11), that powerless and weak law (Romans 8:3), has been set aside because it was weak and useless, and could make nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19), making the priesthood which administered it likewise making nothing perfect,
while love is the fulfillment of the Decalogue "and any other commandment there my be." (Romans 13:8-10)

We are not under the supervision of the law in the NT (Galatians 3:25;1 Corinthians 9:20), it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Edit: Now that Christ has come, we are under the supervision of love, where the law is now written on our hearts, love giving us to obey it without having to continually purpose our obedience, for it becomes simply what love does, making any other form of obedience of it apart from love to be worthless.
And though the law has no power to condemn us, our love is counted as its perfect fulfillment, as Abraham's faith was counted as perfect righteousness (of God, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21).
Likewise, to assist us in its practice, the NT is replete with specific instructions on how to live and practice the NT laws of love of God and love of neighbor (Romans 3:8-10).

So I need you to clarify specifically what law of God you are referring to, since so much of the written code is no longer applicable, before I can evaluate if I agree with you or not.

because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty ofcondemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved

We are saved by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."

through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.
According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5

That's "obedience of faith."

as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says

"What God's Word says" is nebulous.
Much of the written code is no longer applicable.
Genuine faith is obedience to NT teachings (Romans 6:16-19).

from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).

We are born again to believe in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, and to obey his teachings as presented in the NT.

Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12

Obedience to God's word as it is understood in the light of the NT.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, it is. . .

My response to your post below is in two parts: the first part giving the NT teaching on the law, and
the second part is my beginning comments on the rest of your post.



Part 1:
"Obedience to God's law" is nebulous.

The law given to the people (Hebrews 7:11), that powerless and weak law (Romans 8:3), has been set aside because it was weak and useless, and could make nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19), making the priesthood which administered it likewise making nothing perfect,
while love is the fulfillment of the Decalogue "and any other commandment there my be." (Romans 13:8-10)

We are not under the supervision of the law in the NT (Galatians 3:25;1 Corinthians 9:20), it was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Edit: Now that Christ has come, we are under the supervision of love, where the law is now written on our hearts, love giving us to obey it without having to continually purpose our obedience, for it becomes simply what love does, making any other form of obedience of it apart from love to be worthless.
And though the law has no power to condemn us, our love is counted as its perfect fulfillment, as Abraham's faith was counted as perfect righteousness (of God, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21).
Likewise, to assist us in its practice, the NT is replete with specific instructions on how to live and practice the NT laws of love of God and love of neighbor (Romans 3:8-10).

So I need you to clarify specifically what law of God you are referring to, since so much of the written code is no longer applicable, before I can evaluate if I agree with you or not in

yours following: (where I have made beginning comments in blue type in between the dashed lines)

Part 2:
because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
We are saved by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.
According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That's "obedience of faith."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by genuine faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. Therefore according to the scriptures, we demonstrate our faith by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says from the heart. Anything else is the dead faith of devils and is not saving faith which is why Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them" *Matthew 7:12-23.

Genuine faith therefore is demonstrated as believing and obeying what Gods' Word says
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Saving faith is believing in Jesus Christ.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
from a new heart that loves (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4) which is God's new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; see also Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 14:12).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
We are born again to believe in Jesus Christ and his atoning work.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Justification from sin therefore is faith alone because there is nothing that we can do to atone for our sins. Sanctification on the other hand is Christian growth and growing in God's grace to become more and more like Jesus as we receive a knowledge of what Gods' Word says and is seen as believing and obeying Gods' Word from the heart as we walk in the power of Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which is a work of a lifetime and not a one time event *see John 8:31-36; Matthew 11:28-30 but is continuous growth leading to godliness *Titus 2:11-12
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Obedience to God's word as it is understood in the light of the NT.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Take Care.

I am finding the discussion with you a little confusing. I am happy to give a detailed response to this but did you not say that you were in agreement with everything in post # 1199 linked?

 

[Clare73]

I am finding the discussion with you a little confusing. I am happy to give a detailed response to this but did you not say that you were in agreement with everything in post # 1199 linked?

That is post #1199 that I am addressing.

Okay, I fixed it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That is post #1199 that I am addressing.
Okay, I fixed it.

I am still confused by your posts. Why are you addressing post # 1199 linked if you have already said you agree with everything in it in your post # 1209? Sorry genuine question I am just trying to understand your thinking.

 

[Clare73]

I am still confused by your posts. Why are you addressing post # 1199 linked if you have already said you agree with everything in it in your post # 1209?
Sorry genuine question I am just trying to understand your thinking.

I agree with your doctrine in post #1208.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I agree with your doctrine in post #1208.

So you said you agree with everything in post # 1199 linked. Are you still in agreement?

 

[Clare73]

So you said you agree with everything in post # 1199 linked. Are you still in agreement?

In post #1212, I present some of the things with which I disagree in the inaccuracy of which they are stated in post #1199.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In post #1212, I present some of the things with which I disagree in the inaccuracy of which they are stated in post #1199.

I will address your claims in detail shortly as I do not believe they are biblical but happy to show why from the scriptures if it might be helpful. You posts demonstrate a lot of confusion as in a previous post you stated you agreed with everything posted in post # 1199 linked and now you say you disagree so I am getting mixed messages or have you changed your mind again?

LoveGodsWord wrote: Now, I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. So can I take it that you agree with my earlier response in post # 1199 linked? Simple question. Yes/No or yes because.... or no because...

Your response here...

I agree with everything you say above, is that the same thing?

Take Care.

 

[enoob57]

Galatians 2:21 (KJV)
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
When we turn salvation partly to ourselves then you frustrate the grace of God!