Why people reject the reality of Hell

[Trivalee]

Do you know what it means to be in Christ, Trivalee? I do!

Philippians 2:10 - Rotherham Emphasized Bible
"In order that, in the name of Jesus, every knee might bow—of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground..."

You know what it means to be in Christ, yet you don't believe that God will punish those who reject him in hell fire? I wonder...

 

[FineLinen]

You know what it means to be in Christ, yet you don't believe that God will punish those who reject him in hell fire? I wonder...

The Father of all fathers punishes with a goal of change and transformation in the exercise, not unending torment! NOT!!!

The safest place in life is in the hands of God.

 

[Lazarus Short]

A strong argument for universalism (not to say unitarian universalism) is to take an overview of the history of Christendom when fire, "hell" and damnation were dominant in the minds and hearts of men.

What do we see during that time?

crusades

massacres

persecution of minority sects

"kill them all and let God sort them out"

burnings at the stake

"they're going Hell, so let's give them a good start!"

a very corrupt Church

and, I insist...a very corrupt theology.

 

[Der Alte]

In Jesus' sermon in Matt. Ch. 5, He mentions 'hell' more than once so you are incorrect that His teaching (including paying the last cent) is restricted to our earthly lives. It's common knowledge that Christ would often use earthly examples to teach spiritual truths. As an example, Matthew 21:33-41 is not simply a story about a landowner and his vineyard.

That is what a parable is using something known/understood to clarify/explain something not known or understood. Saying somewhere in Matt ch. 5 Jesus says something about hell does not tell me anything. Please quote scripture so I can discuss it.
I agree Matt 21:33-41 is not simply a story about a landowner and his vineyard. But every detail of the parable is not exactly like the kingdom of God point Jesus is explaining.
Here is a couple of vss, from Matt 5

Matthew 5:39-42
(39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
(41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
(42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.​

None of this is going to be happening in heaven or hell.
39 Nobody is going to be smiting anybody on the cheek in heaven or hell
40 Nobody is going to be suing anybody at law in heaven or hell
41 Nobody is going to be compelling anyone to go a mile in heaven or hell.
42 Nobody is going to be borrowing anything from anybody in heaven or hell.
Jesus is giving guidance how His followers should behave here in this world.
In another discourse there was something about paying the last penny. There will be no pennies to pay in either heaven or hell. Nobody will be buying their way out of either one.

 

[Der Alte]

We are living in the age of grace, but those who continue to disdain the sacrifice made on the cross for their sins and die as the enemy of God will be cast into the lake of fire.
Hebrew 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Bible never said God will slap those who reject him and did evil all their life on the wrist for being naughty and, welcome them into heaven.

Don't know about others but I see a fate worse than death in Heb 10
-much sorer punishment,
-Vengeance belongeth unto me,
-I will recompense, saith the Lord.
-The Lord shall judge his people.
-It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
For those that believe in UR that doesn't sound like UR to me.

 

[wendykvw]

That is what a parable is using something known/understood to clarify/explain something not known or understood. Saying somewhere in Matt ch. 5 Jesus says something about hell does not tell me anything. Please quote scripture so I can discuss it.
I agree Matt 21:33-41 is not simply a story about a landowner and his vineyard. But every detail of the parable is not exactly like the kingdom of God point Jesus is explaining.
Here is a couple of vss, from Matt 5

Matthew 5:39-42
(39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
(41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
(42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.​

None of this is going to be happening in heaven or hell.
39 Nobody is going to be smiting anybody on the cheek in heaven or hell
40 Nobody is going to be suing anybody at law in heaven or hell
41 Nobody is going to be compelling anyone to go a mile in heaven or hell.
42 Nobody is going to be borrowing anything from anybody in heaven or hell.
Jesus is giving guidance how His followers should behave here in this world.
In another discourse there was something about paying the last penny. There will be no pennies to pay in either heaven or hell. Nobody will be buying their way out of either one.

I agree the penny is not literal. The point of many parables points to heavenly truth using earthly examples. We are agreement I think on that point. We are to prepare for the kingdom are we not? This is really the dilemma Calvinist and Arminianism share. Can salvation be lost by our failings or are we secure. Calvinist claim the elect are eternally secure, armininism says we must be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. Which is it? Can we lose salvation or is it secure?

 

[Der Alte]

I agree the penny is not literal. The point of many parables points to heavenly truth using earthly examples. We are agreement I think on that point. We are to prepare for the kingdom are we not? This is really the dilemma Calvinist and Arminianism share. Can salvation be lost by our failings or are we secure. Calvinist claim the elect are eternally secure, armininism says we must be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. Which is it? Can we lose salvation or is it secure?

I can vividly remember when FDR died, how all of the grown ups acted. But for more recent things sometimes not so good. I am forever losing something, laying something down and forgetting where it was.
One cannot "lose" their salvation that way. But,

Hebrews 10:26-31
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

This is clearly speaking of someone who was "saved." Someone who "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," Someone who only "knew or heard about,""was introduced to the gospel" etc. would not be said to be "sanctified" by the blood of Christ.
"how much sorer punishment,""Vengeance belongeth unto me,""I will recompense," "The Lord shall judge his people "[not strangers] "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
This is what happens to believers who "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing."

 

[BobRyan]

In another discourse there was something about paying the last penny. There will be no pennies to pay in either heaven or hell. Nobody will be buying their way out of either one.

More actual Bible details please.

Matt 18:
28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling, and went and threw him in prison until he would pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him.

That was the "parable" ...

Now here is the "Lesson" it teaches according to Christ

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


Christ's own conclusion does not allow the "ignore this teaching of Christ -- He can't be serious" kinds of responses.

It teaches us about forgiveness revoked it also teaches us that whatever debt a human owes in that second-death of lake of fire and brimstone torment - will be paid by the sinner.

 

[Jipsah]

You know what it means to be in Christ, yet you don't believe that God will punish those who reject him in hell fire? I wonder...

Me, I have to wonder how people manage to believe that God is a pitiless fiend who has decreed that sinners be tortured forever for no discernble reason.

 

[FineLinen]

A strong argument for universalism (not to say unitarian universalism) is to take an overview of the history of Christendom when fire, "hell" and damnation were dominant in the minds and hearts of men.

What do we see during that time?

crusades

massacres

persecution of minority sects

"kill them all and let God sort them out"

burnings at the stake

"they're going Hell, so let's give them a good start!"

a very corrupt Church

and, I insist...a very corrupt theology.

Brother Laz: It is truly sad how we have twisted the Good News Gospel into ghastly happenings!

 

[FineLinen]

Brother Laz: It is truly sad how we have twisted the Good News Gospel into ghastly happenings!

"But God still loves us with such great love. He is so rich in compassion and mercy. Even when we were dead and doomed in our many sins, he united us into the very life of Christ and saved us by his wonderful grace! He raised us up with Christ the exalted One, and we ascended with him into the glorious perfection and authority of the heavenly realm, for we are now co-seated as one with Christ! Throughout the coming ages we will be the visible display of the infinite riches of his grace and kindness, which was showered upon us in Jesus Christ. 8For by grace you have been saved by faith. Nothing you did could ever earn this salvation, for it was the love gift from God that brought us to Christ! So no one will ever be able to boast, for salvation is never a reward for good works or human striving. We have become his poetry, a re-created people that will fulfill the destiny he has given each of us, for we are joined to Jesus, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good works we would do to fulfill it!" ~TPT

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I kind of reckon being burned alive could be considered torture whether it's a form or punishment or not.

It might enlighten you to read all the Old and New Testament Scriptures describing hell.

 

[FineLinen]

It might enlighten you to read all the Old and New Testament Scriptures describing hell.

"But God still loves us with such great love. He is so rich in compassion and mercy. Even when we were dead and doomed in our many sins, he united us into the very life of Christ and saved us by his wonderful grace! He raised us up with Christ the exalted One, and we ascended with him into the glorious perfection and authority of the heavenly realm, for we are now co-seated as one with Christ! Throughout the coming ages we will be the visible display of the infinite riches of his grace and kindness, which was showered upon us in Jesus Christ. 8For by grace you have been saved by faith. Nothing you did could ever earn this salvation, for it was the love gift from God that brought us to Christ! So no one will ever be able to boast, for salvation is never a reward for good works or human striving. We have become his poetry, a re-created people that will fulfill the destiny he has given each of us, for we are joined to Jesus, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good works we would do to fulfill it!" ~TPT

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"But God still loves us with such great love. He is so rich in compassion and mercy. Even when we were dead and doomed in our many sins, he united us into the very life of Christ and saved us by his wonderful grace! He raised us up with Christ the exalted One, and we ascended with him into the glorious perfection and authority of the heavenly realm, for we are now co-seated as one with Christ! Throughout the coming ages we will be the visible display of the infinite riches of his grace and kindness, which was showered upon us in Jesus Christ. 8For by grace you have been saved by faith. Nothing you did could ever earn this salvation, for it was the love gift from God that brought us to Christ! So no one will ever be able to boast, for salvation is never a reward for good works or human striving. We have become his poetry, a re-created people that will fulfill the destiny he has given each of us, for we are joined to Jesus, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good works we would do to fulfill it!" ~TPT

Hell is for those who refuse His great love that He sent His only Son to suffer and die on the Cross for the sins of the world. Jesus suffered the eternal wrath of God for every sinner who was and will ever be born. Those who refuse the invitation of of the Gospel spurn God's great love both for His Son and for the world. So instead of Jesus taking God's wrath for them, they will be condemned to suffer the continuous wrath of God for all eternity. So there is God's great love for those who come to Christ and put their faith in Him, but severe justice for those who tread the blood of Christ underfoot through their rebellion against Him.

 

[Der Alte]

More actual Bible details please.
Matt 18:
28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling, and went and threw him in prison until he would pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him.
That was the "parable" ...
Now here is the "Lesson" it teaches according to Christ
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Christ's own conclusion does not allow the "ignore this teaching of Christ -- He can't be serious" kinds of responses.
It teaches us about forgiveness revoked it also teaches us that whatever debt a human owes in that second-death of lake of fire and brimstone torment - will be paid by the sinner.

I don't see any contradiction between my post and yours.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't see any contradiction between my post and yours.

I agree with your statement about "no pennies" and "nobody can buy their way out" but in the Matt 18 example - we have important details where debt is owed, debt is forgiven... then debt is returned and the person must pay the full debt in torment. So those aspects are literal.

But I don't meet vary many people who expect pennies in hell or some sort of cash register and a way to buy themselves out.

In Luke 12 we are told that some owe much and others little.

45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

It does not say "all owe infinite" - rather all will pay "in full".

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with your statement about "no pennies" and "nobody can buy their way out" but in the Matt 18 example - we have important details where debt is owed, debt is forgiven... then debt is returned and the person must pay the full debt in torment. So those aspects are literal.
In Luke 12 we are told that some owe much and others little.
45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
It does not say "all owe infinite"

I still agree. I was primarily addressing some who think every element of a parable will be literally reenacted in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[FineLinen]

Hell is for those who refuse His great love that He sent His only Son to suffer and die on the Cross for the sins of the world. Jesus suffered the eternal wrath of God for every sinner who was and will ever be born. Those who refuse the invitation of of the Gospel spurn God's great love both for His Son and for the world. So instead of Jesus taking God's wrath for them, they will be condemned to suffer the continuous wrath of God for all eternity. So there is God's great love for those who come to Christ and put their faith in Him, but severe justice for those who tread the blood of Christ underfoot through their rebellion against Him.

"Continuous wrath for all eternity" is a figment of depravity.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Continuous wrath for all eternity" is a figment of depravity.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

So Jesus is lying when He said on a number of occasions that Hell is eternal torment subject to the continual wrath of God?

 

[Saint Steven]

So Jesus is lying when He said on a number of occasions that Hell is eternal torment subject to the continual wrath of God?

Most of the problem is with the biased translation. For example:

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”