Why people reject the reality of Hell

[Saint Steven]

My apologies, then. I'm still trying to figure out all the different sections of the Platform. I believe I owe the brother an apology.

Thanks. No worries.

Here's an unbiased presentation of all three biblical views of the final judgment.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[wendykvw]

Thanks. No worries.

Here's an unbiased presentation of all three biblical views of the final judgment.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Dr. Gregory Boyd has a new book representing all three views : ECT, annihilation and universalism. Will be ready August 16th. Although Dr. Gregory is not a universalist, he is a Pentecostal, and a conditionalist. He has influenced the universalist movement, and is one of many who has provided materials to advance this new reformation.

 

[Der Alte]

Exactly, we disagree on what the verse main focus should be. With regard to Matthew 25:46. Your focus is on infinity of torture. The focus that is illuminated here, is those who refer to Christ as their Lord. They are on the left and will be consigned to the eternal fire. This poses no problem for Catholics, Orthodox, or Universalist. It does pose a problem for Protestants.

Do you think that the ones on the left merely saying Lord makes them followers of Christ? Can you show me any vs. which supports that?
Don't you think that anyone who knows they are finally going to be punished for their misdeeds, will say anything trying to get out of it?
I think the ones on the left are some of the many in this passage.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

I remember not too long ago two televangelists who were always saying Lord, Lord who both were found to be doing unchristian like things and fell from grace. Preaching about Jesus and saying Lord, Lord did not make them Christians.

 

[wendykvw]

Do you think that the ones on the left merely saying Lord makes them followers of Christ? Can you show me any vs. which supports that?
Don't you think that anyone who knows they are finally going to be punished for their misdeeds, will say anything trying to get out of it?
I think the ones on the left are some of the many in this passage.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

I remember not too long ago two televangelists who were always saying Lord, Lord who both were found to be doing unchristian like things and fell from grace. Preaching about Jesus and saying Lord, Lord did not make them Christians.

According to most Protestant denominations all you need to do is confess Jesus is Lord. This was not the belief of the early church. Protestantism and the reformers threw the baby out with the bath water. Sanctification is life long, a process that may not be complete at death. The term purgatory by Catholics, an intermediate state by Orthodox, Time in Gehenna for Judaism and according to Christ the punishment of Gehenna. So yes, this included believers. Christ has warned in many passages in the gospel.


The conviction that all believers are magically made perfect at the moment of death can be traced back Luther’s original protest. The concept of purgatory had become so fused with the idea of paying for your own sins and with the grotesque practice of selling indulgences that Luther and other Protestants ended up rejecting the concept of post-mortem sanctification (“purgatory”) altogether.

So far as I can see, the early Protestants threw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. While Scripture is admittedly scant on details of the next life, I find hints that suggest that there’s some sort of refining process that believers must go through on their way to their eternal home.

For example, in Matthew 5 Jesus says;

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny” (Mt. 5:25-26).

Notice that Jesus says the person will eventually get out of prison, which tells us he’s not talking about an eternal punishment. This person is clearly “saved.” Yet, there’s a punishment this person must undergo before they are released from prison. In light of Christ’s atoning death I think we have to interpret this punishment in a pedagogical instead of a retributive sense. It’s not a matter of a person paying for their own sins. It’s rather a matter of a person learning what they have to learn. Jesus is teaching us that we either learn to be reconciled with our adversaries now or we’ll have to learn this later – and it’s apparently in our own interest to learn this now

 

[Der Alte]

...

The Lake has important qualities.
Theion and theioo, rooted in Divine.

Nonsense! Neither word, "theion" nor "theioo" occurs anywhere in Revelation.

 

[Der Alte]

...

According to most Protestant denominations all you need to do is confess Jesus is Lord. This was not the belief of the early church. Protestantism and the reformers threw the baby out with the bath water. Sanctification is life long, a process that may not be complete at death. The term purgatory by Catholics, an intermediate state by Orthodox, Time in Gehenna for Judaism and according to Christ the punishment of Gehenna. So yes, this included believers as is Christ warning in many passages in the gospel.
The conviction that all believers are magically made perfect at the moment of death can be traced back Luther’s original protest. The concept of purgatory had become so fused with the idea of paying for your own sins and with the grotesque practice of selling indulgences that Luther and other Protestants ended up rejecting the concept of post-mortem sanctification (“purgatory”) altogether.
So far as I can see, the early Protestants threw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. While Scripture is admittedly scant on details of the next life, I find hints that suggest that there’s some sort of refining process that believers must go through on their way to their eternal home.
For example, in Matthew 5 Jesus says;

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny” (Mt. 5:25-26).​

This is not about the after life Jesus is telling people how to conduct themselves in this life.

Notice that Jesus says the person will eventually get out of prison, which tells us he’s not talking about an eternal punishment. This person is clearly “saved.” Yet, there’s a punishment this person must undergo before they are released from prison.​

Has nothing to do with the after life.

In light of Christ’s atoning death I think we have to interpret this punishment in a pedagogical instead of a retributive sense. It’s not a matter of a person paying for their own sins. It’s rather a matter of a person learning what they have to learn. Jesus is teaching us that we either learn to be reconciled with our adversaries now or we’ll have to learn this later – and it’s apparently in our own interest to learn this now​

...

 

[wendykvw]

According to most Protestant denominations all you need to do is confess Jesus is Lord. This was not the belief of the early church. Protestantism and the reformers threw the baby out with the bath water. Sanctification is life long, a process that may not be complete at death. The term purgatory by Catholics, an intermediate state by Orthodox, Time in Gehenna for Judaism and according to Christ the punishment of Gehenna. So yes, this included believers as is Christ warning in many passages in the gospel.
The conviction that all believers are magically made perfect at the moment of death can be traced back Luther’s original protest. The concept of purgatory had become so fused with the idea of paying for your own sins and with the grotesque practice of selling indulgences that Luther and other Protestants ended up rejecting the concept of post-mortem sanctification (“purgatory”) altogether.
So far as I can see, the early Protestants threw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. While Scripture is admittedly scant on details of the next life, I find hints that suggest that there’s some sort of refining process that believers must go through on their way to their eternal home.
For example, in Matthew 5 Jesus says;

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny” (Mt. 5:25-26).​

This is not about the after life Jesus is telling people how to conduct themselves in this life.

Notice that Jesus says the person will eventually get out of prison, which tells us he’s not talking about an eternal punishment. This person is clearly “saved.” Yet, there’s a punishment this person must undergo before they are released from prison.​

Has nothing to do with the after life.

In light of Christ’s atoning death I think we have to interpret this punishment in a pedagogical instead of a retributive sense. It’s not a matter of a person paying for their own sins. It’s rather a matter of a person learning what they have to learn. Jesus is teaching us that we either learn to be reconciled with our adversaries now or we’ll have to learn this later – and it’s apparently in our own interest to learn this now​

In Jesus' sermon in Matt. Ch. 5, He mentions 'hell' more than once so you are incorrect that His teaching (including paying the last cent) is restricted to our earthly lives. It's common knowledge that Christ would often use earthly examples to teach spiritual truths. As an example, Matthew 21:33-41 is not simply a story about a landowner and his vineyard.

 

[Trivalee]

Our Father's essence is LOVE. All that He does, as the Father of all fathers flows from who He is. He indeed judges the wicked, and all of us who walk within Him as His children.

Let me fall into His glorious grasp!

Glad we agree on something at last. However, those who continue to reject him and die in sin will be judged on the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire for eternal punishment.

 

[Trivalee]

First Church of God, Torturer

Sorry, you lost me. Please clarify.

 

[Trivalee]

"The light" apparently being that God is merciless, and will consign those who have offended Him to eternal torment with no other purpose but to torture them. For God so loved the world that He will consign most of those He has created to suffer in flames forever, without hope, and without relief, ever. No more of that "Father forgive them" stuff, no more mercy that endures forever. Eternal life is no longer the Gift of God, but the sentence of the damned. Some "light", that.

We are living in the age of grace, but those who continue to disdain the sacrifice made on the cross for their sins and die as the enemy of God will be cast into the lake of fire.

Hebrew 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Bible never said God will slap those who reject him and did evil all their life on the wrist for being naughty and, welcome them into heaven.

 

[FineLinen]

Glad we agree on something at last. However, those who continue to reject him and die in sin will be judged on the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire for eternal punishment.

Our Father's plan comes to perfect conclusion. What began in Him, ends in Him. Every broken wreck of sin ultimately bows & confesses IN Him, YOU ARE LORD!

Do you grasp what it means to be IN Jesus Christ the Lord? That identical IN is what is transpiring in this confession by every dimension of the heavens, earth, & underworld!

It is not perfunctory genuflections: NOT

 

[Trivalee]

Spiritual discernment flows out of union with the Spirit of the Lord. The Scriptures are not understood by the religious natural man, but require the opening of the eyes and heart.

Then opened He their understanding...

Very true. I like the way you phrased it; "Spiritual discernment flows out of union with the Spirit of the Lord." Unfortunately, most scholars are not in union with the Holy Spirit and consequently, approach the scriptures as an academic complexity that must be unravelled with the brilliance of their mind.

 

[Trivalee]

Our Father's plan comes to perfect conclusion. What began in Him, ends in Him. Every broken wreck of sin ultimately bows & confesses IN Him, YOU ARE LORD!

Do you grasp what it means to be IN Jesus Christ the Lord? That identical IN is what is transpiring in this confession by every dimension of the heavens, earth, & underworld!

It is not perfunctory genuflections: NOT

There is no repentance after death, so the one who never confessed "IN Him" in this life will ultimately end up in hell fire.

I can't see the Lord saying to the likes of Hitler and Osama Bin Laden, "hey, you've been a bad boy, but it's all forgiven. Come into heaven".

 

[Trivalee]

Thanks. No worries.

Here's an unbiased presentation of all three biblical views of the final judgment.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Thank you so much!

 

[Trivalee]

"If your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

Indeed, many are still in great darkness despite calling, "Lord, Lord" with their lips while their hearts are far from God. On that day; the Lord will reprove and tell them, "I don't know you, depart from me".

 

[FineLinen]

There is no repentance after death, so the one who never confessed "IN Him" in this life will ultimately end up in hell fire...

The fact is every dimension of Father's Kingdom ultimately declares IN/EN His Name...

YOU ARE LORD!

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τω ονοματ Ιησου παν γονυ καμψη). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ~N.T. Robertson Word Pictures

 

[Trivalee]

The fact is every dimension of Father's Kingdom ultimately declares IN/EN His Name...

YOU ARE LORD!

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τω ονοματ Ιησου παν γονυ καμψη). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ~N.T. Robertson Word Pictures

Show me the scripture where the dead declares "in his name", and is subsequently saved?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The conviction that all believers are magically made perfect at the moment of death can be traced back Luther’s original protest. The concept of purgatory had become so fused with the idea of paying for your own sins and with the grotesque practice of selling indulgences that Luther and other Protestants ended up rejecting the concept of post-mortem sanctification (“purgatory”) altogether.

Not quite. For one, the Eastern Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Churches) have never had a doctrine of Purgatory. So Luther's rejection of Purgatory was not some innovation on his part, but was two-fold: That the Christian passes through judgment to life solely on the merit of Christ alone, and the doctrine of purgatory was itself a late innovation and one which was saturated with abuses in his day.

Also, it's important to understand that the term "Protestant" doesn't refer to Luther protesting anything; but actually refers to the German princes who protested the decree at the 2nd Imperial Diet of Speyer (the Holy Roman Emperor decreed that all the princes had to enforce the Roman religious practice and outlaw Lutheran practice). The Lutheran German princes formally protested this decision, and they became known as "The Protestants" for their "Protestation at Speyer". When Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenburg, it wasn't a protest, it was an invitation for academic debate on the subject of indulgences; Luther also sent a copy of the 95 Theses along with a letter to his Archbishop (Albert of Mainz) in which he appealed to the dignity of the archbishop and also of the pope. Here is how the 95 Theses begin,

"Amore et studio elucidande veritas hec subscripta disputabuntur Wittenberge, Presidente R.P. Martino Lutter, Artium et S. Theologie Magistro eiusdemque ibidem lectore Ordinario. Quare petit, ut qui non possunt verbis presentes nobiscum disceptare agant id literis absentes. In nomine domini nostri Hiesu Christi. Amen."

Translation from the original Latin:
"Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed and defended at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, to do so by letter."

That's not a protest, that's a department head of a university inviting academic discourse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FineLinen]

Show me the scripture where the dead declares "in his name", and is subsequently saved?

Do you know what it means to be in Christ, Trivalee? I do!

Philippians 2:10 - Rotherham Emphasized Bible

"In order that, in the name of Jesus, every knee might bow—of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground..."

"The authority of the name of Jesus causes every knee to bow in reverence! Everything and everyone will one day submit to this name—in the heavenly realm, in the earthly realm, and in the demonic realm. And every tongue will proclaim in every language: “Jesus Christ is Lord Yahweh,” bringing glory and honor to God, his Father! ~TPT

 

[wendykvw]

Not quite. For one, the Eastern Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Churches) have never had a doctrine of Purgatory. So Luther's rejection of Purgatory was not some innovation on his part, but was two-fold: That the Christian passes through judgment to life solely on the merit of Christ alone, and the doctrine of purgatory was itself a late innovation and one which was saturated with abuses in his day.

Also, it's important to understand that the term "Protestant" doesn't refer to Luther protesting anything; but actually refers to the German princes who protested the decree at the 2nd Imperial Diet of Speyer (the Holy Roman Emperor decreed that all the princes had to enforce the Roman religious practice and outlaw Lutheran practice). The Lutheran German princes formally protested this decision, and they became known as "The Protestants" for their "Protestation at Speyer". When Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenburg, it wasn't a protest, it was an invitation for academic debate on the subject of indulgences; Luther also sent a copy of the 95 Theses along with a letter to his Archbishop (Albert of Mainz) in which he appealed to the dignity of the archbishop and also of the pope. Here is how the 95 Theses begin,

"Amore et studio elucidande veritas hec subscripta disputabuntur Wittenberge, Presidente R.P. Martino Lutter, Artium et S. Theologie Magistro eiusdemque ibidem lectore Ordinario. Quare petit, ut qui non possunt verbis presentes nobiscum disceptare agant id literis absentes. In nomine domini nostri Hiesu Christi. Amen."

Translation from the original Latin:
"Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed and defended at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, to do so by letter."

That's not a protest, that's a department head of a university inviting academic discourse.

-CryptoLutheran

Orthodox do not have a purgatory per say, rather they believe an intermediate state. They have always rejected the Catholic definition of purgatory. The practice predated the Catholic church. Although it differs from the Catholic definition.