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Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

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Divide

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Wait, so you’re basing your claim of having a high IQ on a test you took when you were a child? Bro...

No, that was just the first time, in school. I'm not bragging on a high IQ, but rather making the point that, the official types have had me checked out before, and I don't fit the profile, history or anything of being one who has mental disabilities of some sort.

If I had mental difficulties it would certainly have surfaced at some point and manifested into my behavior, which would have put it on my record somewhere...well, guess what? It didn't. I was married to the same girl for 26 years...how bad could I be if she stayed that long? Lol.

I don't fit the mould man. That's all. I have too much going for me. I may be poor, but I'm a happy well adjusted serf on this planet. and I don't need any stinking pills, lol!
 
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gaara4158

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I had a mental deficiency which caused me to have a hallucination that I was supposed to pray for a mna that I've never met before...and it turned out to be the truth and was confirmed by the man himself...Now how could that be?

Coincidences happen every day. People need help every day. People have hallucinations every day. It’s really not difficult to explain your story with a combination of a few everyday occurrences. Coincidence is absolutely a better explanation than the complete non-explanation of “divine intervention.”
 
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gaara4158

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No, that was just the first time, in school. I'm not bragging on a high IQ, but rather making the point that, the official types have had me checked out before, and I don't fit the profile, history or anything of being one who has mental disabilities of some sort.

If I had mental difficulties it would certainly have surfaced at some point and manifested into my behavior, which would have put it on my record somewhere...well, guess what? It didn't. I was married to the same girl for 26 years...how bad could I be if she stayed that long? Lol.

I don't fit the mould man. That's all. I have too much going for me. I may be poor, but I'm a happy well adjusted serf on this planet. and I don't need any stinking pills, lol!

No one’s selling you pills, man. We’re just trying to get you to approach this scenario rationally, and you seem more willing to believe that you’re surrounded by amateur psychiatrists who just don’t understand you than to question why you believe so strongly what you believe. That’s all.
 
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Divide

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Oh, you know what? I remember when I did get in trouble one time for cultivation of Marijuana and I got 2 years probation on a deferred sentance. Which included me having to take some classes through the court. It was a...don't relapse into being a pot smoker class, I forget the name of it exactly. So I did the class and thought it was over with, and my probation officer tried to tell me that I have to do another class also...a cognitive skills class of some sort. I told her no, they told me one class at first and nothing else, so they're not going to force me to pay more and take another class, that I don't need and they didn't tell me I had to in the beginning. She got mad at me and ended the interview and told me to leave.

The next month I came in and she said that she had talked it over with her boss...and he said that I don't need any cognitive skills class...(!!!)
Their conversation went like this...He needs this class and is refusing to take it...(Hmm, does he even had a job?)...well, yes he's been self-employed for about 20 years now...(really?!)
(How long has he been divorced? and what's his past drug usage been according to record?)...Uh, well, he's never had a drug charge before and he's been married for a little over 14 years...(What?! and you think he needs a cognitive skills class? He don't need that!)

She was trying to get me in trouble and force me too. and her boss did not agree.
If it don't look like a dog turd, and it don't smell like a dog turd...there's a good chance that it isn't a dog turd.
 
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Divide

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No one’s selling you pills, man. We’re just trying to get you to approach this scenario rationally, and you seem more willing to believe that you’re surrounded by amateur psychiatrists who just don’t understand you than to question why you believe so strongly what you believe. That’s all.

Allright. It's really quite simple to me. I know what I heard. It was real. The only reason the amateur psychiatrist's come out is because the story challenges what they believe and have been taught. Now their education is costing someone a lot of money, and no one wants to believe that they've been taught wrong. So the obvious he's a kook in need of help becomes a viable defense mechanism for themselves to give reassurance that, they are getting a good education and they are smart. SO if I'm sick...they can rest easy in their own belief system.

Maybe I didn't go to college...but I do have a lot of the books. I have two successive copies of the DSM. As far as, uneducated (didn't go to college) folks go, I got a pretty fair handle on how that stuff works.

Why wont they answer how I could have a fake hallucination...that turned out to be true? No CF board member psychiatrist can answer that because it flies in the face of their diagnosis of me.
 
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Divide

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Coincidences happen every day. People need help every day. People have hallucinations every day. It’s really not difficult to explain your story with a combination of a few everyday occurrences. Coincidence is absolutely a better explanation than the complete non-explanation of “divine intervention.”

Just a big coincidence? Out of state, long distance, needs help right then...and I just happen to have a coincidental hallucination that the exact man in my hallucination who in real life actually needed help that day at that time...coincidence?!

No way. No way no how. I believe that coincidences can happen...but not like that! If you believe that that was a coincidence...then...you're being short sighted about it.
 
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gaara4158

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Oh, you know what? I remember when I did get in trouble one time for cultivation of Marijuana and I got 2 years probation on a deferred sentance. Which included me having to take some classes through the court. It was a...don't relapse into being a pot smoker class, I forget the name of it exactly. So I did the class and thought it was over with, and my probation officer tried to tell me that I have to do another class also...a cognitive skills class of some sort. I told her no, they told me one class at first and nothing else, so they're not going to force me to pay more and take another class, that I don't need and they didn't tell me I had to in the beginning. She got mad at me and ended the interview and told me to leave.

The next month I came in and she said that she had talked it over with her boss...and he said that I don't need any cognitive skills class...(!!!)
Their conversation went like this...He needs this class and is refusing to take it...(Hmm, does he even had a job?)...well, yes he's been self-employed for about 20 years now...(really?!)
(How long has he been divorced? and what's his past drug usage been according to record?)...Uh, well, he's never had a drug charge before and he's been married for a little over 14 years...(What?! and you think he needs a cognitive skills class? He don't need that!)

She was trying to get me in trouble and force me too. and her boss did not agree.
If it don't look like a dog turd, and it don't smell like a dog turd...there's a good chance that it isn't a dog turd.

Ah, so you’re no stranger to drugs then? That can explain all kinds of one-off neural misfires even after the effects have worn off, even in the absence of any persistent cognitive problems. Again, you just seem to have the very common preference to believe you’re special and everyone else is wrong than to consider that perhaps you simply misinterpreted a signal from your brain because the prediction happened to come true. Let me help you understand the difference between the two possibilities.

First, let’s say you’re right. The voice you heard was indeed from without, and it was giving you real information. This would be a completely unprecedented occurrence as it has never been demonstrated to have happened before in all of human history. Assuming it was a one-off and you couldn’t repeat this feat, you’d have no way to demonstrate to anyone that this really happened. Furthermore, you would have no way of knowing for yourself whether this voice was from a reliable source or a random hallucination because it would feel exactly the same either way.

Now, let’s consider the alternative. Your brain had a glitch that made you believe a voice told you about a man who needed help, and later you interpreted that glitch as divine revelation because you met someone who fit the description from the voice. This is a much more common occurrence that requires no appeals to unknown spiritual realms or entities. Hallucinations, people needing help, people talking to each other, coincidences... these things are all well-known occurrences. Stranger things have happened.

So, which would you expect people to believe? Which one should you believe?
 
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gaara4158

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Just a big coincidence? Out of state, long distance, needs help right then...and I just happen to have a coincidental hallucination that the exact man in my hallucination who in real life actually needed help that day at that time...coincidence?!

No way. No way no how. I believe that coincidences can happen...but not like that! If you believe that that was a coincidence...then...you're being short sighted about it.

Argument from incredulity. That’s an emotional objection, not a rational one.
 
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gaara4158

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Allright. It's really quite simple to me. I know what I heard. It was real. The only reason the amateur psychiatrist's come out is because the story challenges what they believe and have been taught. Now their education is costing someone a lot of money, and no one wants to believe that they've been taught wrong. So the obvious he's a kook in need of help becomes a viable defense mechanism for themselves to give reassurance that, they are getting a good education and they are smart. SO if I'm sick...they can rest easy in their own belief system.

Maybe I didn't go to college...but I do have a lot of the books. I have two successive copies of the DSM. As far as, uneducated (didn't go to college) folks go, I got a pretty fair handle on how that stuff works.

Why wont they answer how I could have a fake hallucination...that turned out to be true? No CF board member psychiatrist can answer that because it flies in the face of their diagnosis of me.

You keep saying you know, but you never answer *how* you know. You don’t seem to grasp its importance. Exactly *how* do you know you weren’t hallucinating and subsequently experienced a coincidence?
 
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HitchSlap

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Be more specific unless you are afraid of the rebuttal. When all else fails, try to show that I'm crazy. Is that the tactic?
Specifically, nothing you say comports with reality.
 
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Jjmcubbin

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I chose the first one? As if they're different? I figured you was in med school, but I call that in school too, you learn there, right?

There's nothing hidden meaning or anything like that. It's the same thing to me, school, college...? I dunno, if you had found a way to be offended over that...sorry. I was just talking. I know you think you're right. I used to think I know everything too. About 25 to 30 years old? As I got older I noticed that I didn't know everything and some things are not like they say it is. But keep paying attention to life and you may spot some weird things too.
I think this may be a cultural difference. Here, school and college are completely different.
And what does my age have to do with anything? I know I am right in this case because that seems to be something you should visit a doctor for. Also, how am I right for saying that you might want to visit a doctor? I once gave the impression that I was "diagnosing" you, for which I apologized. I don't get it. As for being right all the time, if that was true, I would probably have killed many patients with my incomplete knowledge of medicine.
 
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DogmaHunter

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That's why I tell you now. When it happens, you"ll become a minister of God's Truth written more than 3k years ago. God bless you

And when Lord Xenu the intergalactic emperor returns to this planet, we'll all become scientologists.
 
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DogmaHunter

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How I should I know? I'm not a doctor.

But you excluded the possibility that that voice you say you heared, was a hallucination....
You concluded that it was a real voice and that it came from god.

How did you conclude that? Now you're saying that you don't know? So you are just assuming it?

All I know is I was sittin there surfing the internet and our Lord came and told me to pray for a guy. Based on all the armchair psychiatry being tossed around this thread, the indicators seem to be, it a re-curring thing hearing voices with those who are sick.

Not necessarily.
It being a one time thing indeed likely exludes things like full blown psychosis, which doesn't go away without meds and which usually only gets worse.
But as it should be clear by know, there's a whole myriad of things that can cause hallucinations. Including temporary ones that, in the big picture, are rather harmless (health wise).

It gets to be more and more I take it, from what's being said. The "voices" typically are telling people to go and hurt someone or kill someone, or even themselves

I've already told you that that is a misconception.
People tend to think that psychiatric patients are all psychotic psychopaths that go on killing sprees. This is very wrong.

and you guys seem to be trying hard to keep inserting the phrase...but only I can hear...that must be symptomatic and important to a psychosis diagnosis? So ya'll's trying to attach it, lol! No one knows if someone else could have heard it also had anyone been there besides me.

Since the voice did not come from another person, radio, tv, ... it seems a safe assumption that even if other people would have been present, only you would have heared it.

I guess that's a reasonable question. Well, I would have to conclude that, Since the Lord decided to speak to me, literally, that in effect proves and removes any doubt of if there is a real spiritual realm or not. So there is, and that (to me), by implication means, whoa, ok so the Bible is true, spirits are real, so that there is a spiritual war going on which we're caught in the middle of.

Your claim of hearing voices proves nothing at all unless you can demonstrate that these voices were real and that they came from the source you say it came from.

I asked you how I, as a third party, can tell the difference between your claim (assuming it is real) and one that actually is suffering from auditory hallucination?

And your answer seems to be "well, i'm claiming it - that settles it".
Makes no sense.

That said, maybe those sick people are not lying, but rather maybe they do really hear voices telling them to hurt people too.

And the voices go away when taking medication, because they are afraid of anti-psychotic medicine?

(If God can talk to me, then evil spirits can also talk to people.) No one can really prove that those people did not hear voices.

So are you saying that hallucinations might not exist?

There may be more interference from dark spirits than we typically realize on this planet? I don't even know for sure. Maybe some of them do imagine it, while some others may be speaking the truth. It seems to me, that one of the keys to this is...just what are the voices telling the people to do? Good? or evil?

Why would it matter?
Can hallucinations only be "evil" or something?

I note that when attempting to answer my question of how I could distinguish your claims from the claims of a psychotic person, instead of actually trying to make a case for your claims, you are instead trying to argue that hallucination might not exist.

This should tell you something about the strength (or rather lack thereof), of your position.

We do have to be careful when spirits speak to us. The Bible even says to test the spirits, to see if they are from God. Quite a few people here are trying wishing hoping that the voice that I heard did or will tell me to harm someone, and that just didn't happen in my case. So now what?

So now nothing.
It's still an open question: how to tell the difference between you hearing actual voices (from god or whatever other undetectable source you want to claim) and those voices being just hallucinations?

Textbook Psychiatry says, if anyone hears a voice that isn't there, then they are psychotic or whatever. There's their standard. All based on what we can see and touch only and based on there is no God.

You think all psychiatrists are atheists?

So when some guy tells you that there is a dude sitting on the couch and you look at the couch and there is nobody there.... What do you conclude? That there's an actual person there that you simply can't detect? Or would you rather conclude that the guy who's claiming it must be mistaken or hallucinating?

What about if the dude claims that there are midget pink elephants dancing on the table?

Now I do like books. I always have and love to read. But not everything is in textbooks. We have our own senses too. Our own eyes, our own ears. Personal experiences teach people things too.

Sure. Albeit that it is well known our senses can seriously fail and that people can be seriously misled by their own brain.

It's not like this is unknown or something... it is well known. And it has been for a very long time. I'm sure you are aware of this.

So again, it's kind of curious that your "defense" here, seems to consist of suggesting that hallucinations might not exist after all.

But what is to be done when a man's experience disagrees with man's textbooks? Will you believe your own sensory input or believe the textbook and let it set the standard for your beliefs?

Well, that's the thing, now isn't it?
As I said, there's a reason why it's so hard to treat psychiatric conditions.... Hallucinations can be extremely convincing, no matter how bizar they might be.

A wise man once said "the easiest person to fool, is yourself".
 
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DogmaHunter

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Boy you should be careful with medications. From what I've heard from people, especially the anti-psychotic meds that they give to mental patients are dangerous pills. They start taking them and then if they stop taking them they get suicidal and stuff, start freaking out.

For psychotics, the alternative is not taking any meds, suffering brain damage and eventually resorting to suicide.

More then 70% of untreated schizofrenia patients ends up at least attempting suicide.
When treatment is carefully followed, that number goes down drastically.

It's not like there are demonstrated alternatives.....

Also, typically - especially with conditions like schizofrenia - those meds need to be taken for the rest of their lives. Schizofrenia is a condition where the patient suffers from chronic psychotic episodes. During such an episode, patients are bombarded with anti-psychotics to pull them out of it. After that, they are required to remain on a certain daily dose, to prevent relapse.

If they stop taking the meds, they go into psychosis again.

It is dangerous practice to try to cure everything with a pill.

Anti-psychotics don't cure "everything". Just one specific thing.
And they don't actually "cure" either. Rather, they suppress. There is no cure for things like schizofrenia. One can only try and keep it under control. In severe cases, anti-psychotics also don't succeed in preventing new accute episodes.

Some pills are good and do help, but pills are not the be all end all of any of life's ills. Though based on the television commercials and how hard they all are pushing pills to people it's pretty obvious that they want everyone to be medicated. Big push of medications, and always a huge laundry list of potential bad side effects!
I'm not seeing why this is relevant to the point at hand.
Nobody here is speaking in such general terms.

We're talking specifically about hallucination and the ways they can manifest.
And how we can differentiate "hearing actual voices" with auditory hallucination, in context of your specific claim of having heared a voice that you believe to be from god.

That's not health care Brother. Have you ever read the Hippocratic oath that doctors take? They changed it you know, back in the late 60's, I think. Do me a favor man, go google the old and new Hippocratic oaths, and read them both. It used to be part of the oath...to not give medication (pills!) unless dire circumstances. No wonder they changed it. The new Hippocratic oath reads like almost exactly opposite of what the first one said! Doctoring used to be a much different profession. So nah, you can embrace all prescription medications if you wish to for yourself, but I'm a wee bit cautious what I let doctors give me. I've adjusted my own dosages before too (with my seizure meds) because of the side effects that were undesirable. SO I cut the dose. The doc didn't like it but he doesn't know as much about my case as I do, because I live with it. He actually agreed with me then. He said that's how the entire medical/health care system works...feedback from the patient. Not, you should take a pill!

Completely irrelevant to the points under discussion.

Anti-psychotics serve a real purpose, for which there is no alternative.
Psychotic people not taking their meds, is about the worst thing they can do. It never ends well.

Not saying you are psychotic - clearly you aren't. I just can't leave this unanswered. It happens to be a subject that I'm sensitive about because of what I've been through with someone close to me.

I've seen the proportions it can take on without medicine. And I've seen what happens when treatment is carefully followed. I've also seen what happens when the treatment isn't carefully followed as per the doctor's prescription.


Believe me when I tell you that those conditions are not the kinds of conditions where you want to think to know better then the psychiatrist.....

We're not talking about a common cold where not taking your meds simply means that it'll take 2 days longer before you heal.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Oh, I put a mild bad word in that last post and the 'puter changed it to bless and do not curse...sorry guys! I'll try to keep it more clean and diplomatic. :)
Yeah, that can really be annoying - particularly when the word is part of the name or title of something...
 
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Aman777

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Specifically, nothing you say comports with reality.

Provably false since I show that "all living creatures" had their beginning in WATER as Gen 1:21 clearly states. Godless heathens changed God's Truth into the satanic lie that living things, which had their beginning in water were "natural" creatures. What it shows is that the godless lie and change the names of things in order to support their false Religion of Evolution. They are so desperate they force teach their false beliefs to our children as fact.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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I don't know about the Hindus and so forth, but I see what you're getting at. I thought the same thing about the (American) Indians...no Bible, just the great Spirit and all that, and I don't know how God deals with that sort of situation, but He sure does, He has to, those are His children too. I have a sneaking feeling that He does deal with other races in His own way, I just don't know how. These different races and religions may have different names for their God, but, they all lead to the same throne and the same judge and the same God.
I will read the other thread and give you my take on it, sure why not? It might take a day or two because I want to address it since you asked.
Well, Thanks, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on them. My initial take is that perhaps your God is one of the many Hindu Gods (keeping in mind that the Hindu religion has been practised for at least 600 years before the first old testament scripture was written).
You ask a good question there. Yes, it seemed unusual and weird to me. God certainly does not need my help to help someone, and yet that is what He did. I have speculated on the why of it for quite awhile now, and what I have come up with...might make sense?
Now we do know that after Jesus's resurrection that, the debt was paid in full. I *think* that, it is all there and paid for, and the only thing missing is for us to receive it and accept it. Scripture says, Ye have not because ye ask not...So perhaps God doesn't move on something...until it is prayed for. We ask for it. So even though our miracle is available and waiting for us to receive it...it wont be released unto us, until someone prays and asks for His help?
Am I sure it wasn't an Angel, or a prankster friend? Yes, I'm sure it was not any human being. It was weird too, scripture says my sheep know my voice...Now then, I have never heard the audible voice of the Lord before this...and surprisingly enough, I did know His voice. I knew it down to the core of my being. I can not exactly explain how I knew, I just knew. It was so obvious who it was that it was never a question of who is that. When the tangible presence of God came into that room, it was a thick tangible presence that can't be ignored or missed.
As I understand it, you were the only person to hear this voice, right? Do you know what Satan is capable of? Are you absolutely sure that Satan, an immortal supernatural being, is incapable of tricking one mere fallible human being for a few minutes of conversation?
God is really always in the room. He sees and knows everything about everyone. There is no such thing as privacy of thoughts or actions. None of us have been alone at any time in our entire lives. Unseen spiritual beings, however, He mostly keeps Himself hidden from us. We don't see Him or feel His presence as a rule, but when He chooses to reveal Himself somewhat to us for whatever purpose He has...There's no mistaking it brother. When God walks into the room you know it. And yet, He was still mostly hidden when He visited and spoke to me. I did not see anything. I felt His presence and I heard Him. We had a short conversation. No one else was there. I lived alone at the time.
So, what would you have done if this voice asked you to sacrifice an innocent child (perhaps your own son if you had one?) in his honour instead of praying for your friend? I ask, because if I were to hear such a voice, I'd be entirely concerned for my, and everyone else's safety and seek professional help. Did you ever talk to a professional about your conversation? I really do encourage you to do so.
That was not satan man. No way. I have felt the presence of both evil and good and there's a big difference. That was no...distraction from doing some other good deed. I'm no super expert on supernatural beings or anything, but I've been paying attention for a long time, and praying for wisdom and understanding and for discerning of Spirits too, and God has taught me some things. It is written in scripture to always test the Spirits too see if they are of God or not, and I do this, but I actually did not test this Spirit which spoke to me, because I knew who it was. That prolly sounds a little contradictory, but...in effort to explain the gravity of the situation, the presence of God manifested in the room with me...was very intense. It was not just a feeling I had, it was a a tangible and thick presence in that room. Oh yes, it was very real. It might be a little hard to grasp what I'm saying, but I guarantee you that when Jesus walks into the room with you one day...then you will know what I mean.
I wish that were the case. Why is a Damascus Road experience not bestowed on all of us? That would instantly clear this whole thing up for everyone, wouldn't you agree? I don't understand why so many of us are selected for damnation if your God is in fact real. I hold some comfort in my reservation given the 100% conviction so many other religious adherents have for their faiths in exactly the same way you are convinced of yours.
Satan doesn't tell people to pray for others. That is not how he rolls. Those type of stupid thoughts do come though, because satan wants to cast doubt on everything to do with God. So the evil spirits will whisper that type of crap to you and put those thoughts in your head. But we're to shake that crap off and trust that God is not a liar and hold onto our faith in Him. That's what it is all about. Having faith in God. He wants us to trust Him. and when we do, He is delighted and will stand up to His word, and gives us the desires of our heart. First thing, trust God. To consciously put our faith and trust in an unseen God, and then He will be with us and never leave us or forsake us. I read that and said ok. I choose to do this. I trust God and whatever happens happens, and then a funny thing happened...He started helping me almost daily. I have so many testimonies of things that the Lord has done for me...That it boggles my mind. This been going on for me since 2009. I've been paying attention to how things work out and the Lord has begun to show a pattern with me, in how He helps me. It seems to be...always at the last minute, but never late.
I have to ask, how do you know God has anything to do with it? and Again, how can you be sure that Satan couldn't fool you into thinking he was your God?
The less that you trust God, the less sense any of this will make. Only after you choose to begin to trust God, that is when He will help you
which sounds alot like confirmation bias - again given the plethora of other religions and religious people all having equally profound experiences after believing in their Deities, I don't see how you can justify your experience as being either real to anyone without a way to independently confirm them, or true over any other religion's deity(ies).
 
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Divide

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Well, Thanks, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on them. My initial take is that perhaps your God is one of the many Hindu Gods (keeping in mind that the Hindu religion has been practised for at least 600 years before the first old testament scripture was written).

As I understand it, you were the only person to hear this voice, right? Do you know what Satan is capable of? Are you absolutely sure that Satan, an immortal supernatural being, is incapable of tricking one mere fallible human being for a few minutes of conversation?

So, what would you have done if this voice asked you to sacrifice an innocent child (perhaps your own son if you had one?) in his honour instead of praying for your friend? I ask, because if I were to hear such a voice, I'd be entirely concerned for my, and everyone else's safety and seek professional help. Did you ever talk to a professional about your conversation? I really do encourage you to do so.

I wish that were the case. Why is a Damascus Road experience not bestowed on all of us? That would instantly clear this whole thing up for everyone, wouldn't you agree? I don't understand why so many of us are selected for damnation if your God is in fact real. I hold some comfort in my reservation given the 100% conviction so many other religious adherents have for their faiths in exactly the same way you are convinced of yours.

I have to ask, how do you know God has anything to do with it? and Again, how can you be sure that Satan couldn't fool you into thinking he was your God?

which sounds alot like confirmation bias - again given the plethora of other religions and religious people all having equally profound experiences after believing in their Deities, I don't see how you can justify your experience as being either real to anyone without a way to independently confirm them, or true over any other religion's deity(ies).

Wow you guys are really out there. I'm not going to begin repeating myself when you guys mostly do not even read what I write. I can tell that by your repeated questions that I've already answered.

No offense, but a lot of you guys questions are coming across like, what if C-A-T really spelled dog?

So believe what you want to brothers and sisters...and I will too. See ya on the other side, lol.
 
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