Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[Skreeper]

See ya on the other side, lol.

I sure hope not because that would truly be an unfair punishment for me.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Wow you guys are really out there. I'm not going to begin repeating myself when you guys mostly do not even read what I write. I can tell that by your repeated questions that I've already answered.

No offense, but a lot of you guys questions are coming across like, what if C-A-T really spelled dog?

So believe what you want to brothers and sisters...and I will too. See ya on the other side, lol.

I understand it's drawing you to an uncomfortable conclusion, but I would urge you to persist if you honestly believe you're correct - after all, if 'Truth' is on your side, it'll stand up to scrutiny, right? Go ahead and demonstrate the "C-A-T really spells dog" nonsense of my line of questioning. Are you seriously saying that Satan couldn't possible trick you in isolation, a mere mortal, fallible human being? Likewise, why not answer my question about sacrificing your Son? and for that matter, how do you explain the equally profound experience other religious adherents have with their deities? You can't all be right...

it seems you know where your unconfirmable experiences can lead you and you don't want to confront it. If your position was so rock-solid, you wouldn't be running your legs off right now and you'd be answering my questions.

 

[Divide]

I sure hope not because that would truly be an unfair punishment for me.

I doubt it but really don't know, that's between you and God. There will be two groups of people there, I'll be one on in the other group of people across from yours.

I understand it's drawing you to an uncomfortable conclusion, but I would urge you to persist if you honestly believe you're correct - after all, if 'Truth' is on your side, it'll stand up to scrutiny, right? Go ahead and demonstrate the "C-A-T really spells dog" nonsense of my line of questioning. Are you seriously saying that Satan couldn't possible trick you in isolation, a mere mortal, fallible human being? Likewise, why not answer my question about sacrificing your Son? and for that matter, how do you explain the equally profound experience other religious adherents have with their deities? You can't all be right...

it seems you know where your unconfirmable experiences can lead you and you don't want to confront it. If your position was so rock-solid, you wouldn't be running your legs off right now and you'd be answering my questions.

Not really, you've already made it clear that you guys wont believe anything that anyone says. You're just trolling me demanding some sort of proof that your worldly belief system wont outright reject with it's worldly views. You got lots of company here that think as you do so that seems to encourage you. Well, what can I say? God doesn't roll like that and I didn't make it that way, it's His rules, not mine. So good luck with that. There's a lot more to aan education than blindly accepting everything their textbooks tell you. Learning comes from thinking for yourself, not from a program. Education will only get you so far.

 

[Skreeper]

I doubt it but really don't know, that's between you and God. There will be two groups of people there, I'll be one on in the other group of people across from yours

Well if God truly wants to punish me he just needs to put me in your group. I'd rather be with my fellow baby eating atheists.

 

[gaara4158]

I doubt it but really don't know, that's between you and God. There will be two groups of people there, I'll be one on in the other group of people across from yours.



Not really, you've already made it clear that you guys wont believe anything that anyone says. You're just trolling me demanding some sort of proof that your worldly belief system wont outright reject with it's worldly views. You got lots of company here that think as you do so that seems to encourage you. Well, what can I say? God doesn't roll like that and I didn't make it that way, it's His rules, not mine. So good luck with that. There's a lot more to aan education than blindly accepting everything their textbooks tell you. Learning comes from thinking for yourself, not from a program. Education will only get you so far.

Blind acceptance of texts is not a facet of education. It’s the exact opposite of education. It’s faith. You’re the one attempting to defend faith.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Not really, you've already made it clear that you guys wont believe anything that anyone says. You're just trolling me demanding some sort of proof that your worldly belief system wont outright reject with it's worldly views. You got lots of company here that think as you do so that seems to encourage you. Well, what can I say? God doesn't roll like that and I didn't make it that way, it's His rules, not mine. So good luck with that. There's a lot more to aan education than blindly accepting everything their textbooks tell you. Learning comes from thinking for yourself, not from a program. Education will only get you so far.

If you took the time to learn critical thinking, you'd understand that Science is a method, not a dictate. Ironically, it is you who takes a book at its word unquestioningly.

So, that said, will you take the time to answer my questions? Again, because if you knew the process of critical thinking, you'd know I can be swayed by compelling argument - so what say you answer my questions then?

 

[Divide]

Well if God truly wants to punish me he just needs to put me in your group. I'd rather be with my fellow baby eating atheists.

You guys eat babies too?! Wow man. I hope you're joking, but nowadays one can't be too sure.

 

[Divide]

If you took the time to learn critical thinking, you'd understand that Science is a method, not a dictate. Ironically, it is you who takes a book at its word unquestioningly.

So, that said, will you take the time to answer my questions? Again, because if you knew the process of critical thinking, you'd know I can be swayed by compelling argument - so what say you answer my questions then?

I dunno. I doubt it man. It doesn't really come across to me that any of you guys are seriously interested in what I have to say beyond just looking for things to strike me down with. Like you guys are hoping that I'll say something that you can twist around and call me crazy or some crap like that. SO that said, why should I even answer any of your questions. SO you can insult me some more?

You want me to learn critical thinking. I do have critical thinking, but uh, here you go saying I don't, which is code talk for "critical thinking is agreeing with you and how you think"...and that's not going to happen.

I'm not here to prove to you guys that God exists, and demonstrate God and prove God in your little laboratory of a mind and if I can't then, I'm some kook crazy dude with a mental health problem. Like I could even demonstrate Him anyway! You want proof that God exists, don't ask me for it, ask God Himself. Then He will come and prove to you that He does exist...probably. I say probably because if you approach God with that same sort of arrogant heart that you guys display towards me...I wouldn't expect Him to show up. God is not an entertainer nor does He respond to pride or arrogance. He did prove to me that He is real but I approached Him in humility being very humble about it. SO He responded to me.

What makes you guys think that I have all the answers anyway? If you think I'm nuts and need to be on medication...why're you asking me anything? You guys wont listen to me anyway. I said long ago...I'm nothing special. But then who was it...what makes you think you're so special? See you guys wont listen, you're just having a little fun, trolling the Christian guy, hoping that I'll give you some ammo to use against me! Aha! You've smoked pot before! You're a mental case forever now...SO I've smoked pot, so what. How many empty tequila bottles in your collection? If I was an alcoholic then that would be ok with you guys because alcohol is legal and socially acceptable, right? I drank like a fish when I was a teenager and gave it up before I even became legal age to drink. I have NEVER had a DUI...how many have you had?

And that sort of thing lets me know that not one of you even wants to know for real if God exists. You like your life the way it is and have decided to embrace it and there's no room left for God.

Don't you guys ever question anything? Do you really believe that your government is on your side and wants to help you? Do you think that they don't lie to you? There's your critical thinking for you. If you blindly accept everything that they say, then...who is the one who really needs to learn critical thinking? You have to question them. You have to question everything.

I took a professional trade related test one time. (For NATE Certification), and they had a stupid question on it that made no sense. I wrote my answer as being, this question is a wrong and impossible question to answer based on how it is worded. (I questioned them). I asked them who made this test? You need someone else who knows the trade to write the questions, and I gave them an example of how I would have worded the question (I was pretty sure I knew what they were trying to ask). It almost sounded like it was a trick question the way they worded it.
They gave me extra credit for shooting down their question because they realized that I was right.

It happens. We've already established that I am...fallible. I can be wrong. But uh, in that same vein...so are you, so are the other baby eaters. So is your government and it's department of Education. They're just men..fallible, wrong at times by accident, and wrong at times because of agenda and outright lies.

But you guys wont admit that, they are fallible...you can be fallible. Can we even meet on even ground? No we can't because you guys say so. I am wrong, you are not and they are not...uh-huh...So why should I answer your questions again? It's like that. You guys now seem to be becoming a little hostile that I stopped cooperating and here comes the name calling.

You guys would do well to follow PsychoSarah's lead when talking about these sorts of things. She doesn't agree with me, and she has a lot of class in how she carry's herself. She may not agree, but she has respect for people and conversation. She'll ask intelligent questions and acts like she really considers what she is being told, even if ultimately she rejects what is said. She don't go off asking dumb questions designed to insult the other. It's not emotional. It's a reasonable conversation between adults. It isn't about who wins, who can insult the other one more...you guys got no class. Sarah does. I'll talk to her. She makes you guys look bad.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Consumed.


Of course experts can:

How to Determine a Wine's Age and Origin (Without Looking at the bottle)
How To Tell The Age Of Wine | IF YOUR EXPENSIVE WINE IS FAKE

Today, but there were no sommeliers at that time.

 

[gaara4158]

Aha! You've smoked pot before! You're a mental case forever now...SO I've smoked pot, so what. How many empty tequila bottles in your collection? If I was an alcoholic then that would be ok with you guys because alcohol is legal and socially acceptable, right? I drank like a fish when I was a teenager and gave it up before I even became legal age to drink. I have NEVER had a DUI...how many have you had?

I prefer pot over alcohol myself, but my time in the military forced me to stick to whiskey for several years. It’s totally backwards that it’s the poison that’s legal and the herb that’s schedule 1. In any case, doing drugs doesn’t make you a crazy person. But you have to acknowledge the long-term effects it can have on a person’s mind, especially during the teenage years when critical development is taking place. Mistaking noise for signal is a very common error, one that happens all the time. Why take any other explanation when a simple error does the trick?

You’re assuming an awful lot about us. We’re not a bunch of government-brainwashed robots coming after you because you’re engaging in Wrongspeak. We’re questioning your anecdote wherein you claim to have interfaced with the supreme being of the universe and you’re getting your panties in a bunch when we don’t accept it at face value. That’s not how it works. It’s not our fault your claims don’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Herman Hedning]

You guys eat babies too?! Wow man. I hope you're joking, but nowadays one can't be too sure.

Of course we do. I even had some unborn babies for breakfast this morning. Boiled eggs I think it was called.

 

[Herman Hedning]

Today, but there were no sommeliers at that time.

You don't think people cared about the quality of food and drink even then?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I dunno. I doubt it man. It doesn't really come across to me that any of you guys are seriously interested in what I have to say beyond just looking for things to strike me down with. Like you guys are hoping that I'll say something that you can twist around and call me crazy or some crap like that. SO that said, why should I even answer any of your questions. SO you can insult me some more?

Dude, if your arm grew back by the grace of a deity and you could demonstrate that you had actually lost and arm and that it grew back, I'd be ecstatic.

I'm not here to prove to you guys that God exists, and demonstrate God and prove God in your little laboratory of a mind and if I can't then, I'm some kook crazy dude with a mental health problem. Like I could even demonstrate Him anyway! You want proof that God exists, don't ask me for it, ask God Himself.

I ask but he hasn't responded to my calls. It has been 9 years, and I am still on hold!

What makes you guys think that I have all the answers anyway?

Even if you were speaking with an omniscient deity on a daily basis, I wouldn't think you knew everything.

If you think I'm nuts and need to be on medication...why're you asking me anything?

Because I'm not assuming you are crazy, only maintaining that it is possible that you have a mental problem. Because you hear voices in your head. If I had trouble breathing, and claimed it was because "I get so out of breath talking to god", you'd maintain that it was possible I just had asthma. The first step to telling the difference is asking questions.

You guys wont listen to me anyway. I said long ago...I'm nothing special. But then who was it...what makes you think you're so special?

Absolutely nothing. Even my quirky hobby of growing carnivorous plants isn't unique to me.

See you guys wont listen, you're just having a little fun, trolling the Christian guy, hoping that I'll give you some ammo to use against me! Aha! You've smoked pot before! You're a mental case forever now...SO I've smoked pot, so what. How many empty tequila bottles in your collection? If I was an alcoholic then that would be ok with you guys because alcohol is legal and socially acceptable, right? I drank like a fish when I was a teenager and gave it up before I even became legal age to drink. I have NEVER had a DUI...how many have you had?

-_- I don't drink or smoke anything. The marijuana would only be a concern to me if you claimed that you spoke to a deity while high on it, because marijuana is a mild hallucinogen. Or if you managed to smoke enough of it as a kid to have permanent brain damage.

And that sort of thing lets me know that not one of you even wants to know for real if God exists. You like your life the way it is and have decided to embrace it and there's no room left for God.

I wouldn't be seeking the answer to a question for 9 years if I didn't want the answer.

Don't you guys ever question anything?

To the point that it's nearly at disorder levels.

Do you really believe that your government is on your side and wants to help you?

Nah, I just think politicians want to be re-elected and don't overly care about most people, in general.

Do you think that they don't lie to you?

lol, anyone that claims not to ever lie is lying.

I took a professional trade related test one time. (For NATE Certification), and they had a stupid question on it that made no sense. I wrote my answer as being, this question is a wrong and impossible question to answer based on how it is worded. (I questioned them). I asked them who made this test? You need someone else who knows the trade to write the questions, and I gave them an example of how I would have worded the question (I was pretty sure I knew what they were trying to ask). It almost sounded like it was a trick question the way they worded it.
They gave me extra credit for shooting down their question because they realized that I was right.

Happens sometimes. In my human physiology class, the machine that grades the exams entirely messed up, so half the class had drastically incorrect grades and the remainder still had incorrect ones by a few points.

It happens. We've already established that I am...fallible. I can be wrong. But uh, in that same vein...so are you, so are the other baby eaters. So is your government and it's department of Education. They're just men..fallible, wrong at times by accident, and wrong at times because of agenda and outright lies.

Hence why hypotheses are tested heavily by hundred/thousands of people before they are considered reliable enough to be called theories. It helps reduce the chances that the conclusions are the result of human error. That's why claims about individual experiences aren't considered to be near as reliable as those made through the scientific process. It's the difference between relying on the word of 1 person and the tests of many times more.

You guys would do well to follow PsychoSarah's lead when talking about these sorts of things. She doesn't agree with me, and she has a lot of class in how she carry's herself. She may not agree, but she has respect for people and conversation. She'll ask intelligent questions and acts like she really considers what she is being told, even if ultimately she rejects what is said.

Hehehe, I'm still gonna post my response to this. While I always praise the virtues of having a respectful tone when debating, debating like this for years can wear you down. I've lost my patience with people before, and you have to admit that most people on this subforum don't bother, regardless of their position in the debate. Being rude is pointless, but so is letting yourself get offended. My first experience with online people was a troll that insisted my step-dad (whom they did not know) must have molested me. Not the best welcoming committee, and it definitely made me upset, but no benefit came of being upset.

She don't go off asking dumb questions designed to insult the other. It's not emotional. It's a reasonable conversation between adults. It isn't about who wins, who can insult the other one more...you guys got no class. Sarah does. I'll talk to her. She makes you guys look bad.

I ask most of the same questions they do with different wording. In case you don't remember, when other people were suggesting you might have schizophrenia, I didn't disagree with them. Rather, I proposed a test that would help to distinguish if you did or not, since schizophrenia results in distinctly different brain activity than prayer does.

 

[Divide]

Dude, if your arm grew back by the grace of a deity and you could demonstrate that you had actually lost and arm and that it grew back, I'd be ecstatic.

I know, and me too! I would demonstrate anything for God that would give proof of these things in a heartbeat. That would be so cool, lol! But alas, I am not God (Lol) and He doesn't do things that way for some reason and there's not anything that anyone can do about it because, well, He's GOD. It seems like He likes to be rather dramatic and awe inspiring when he shows proof on a large scale to many people at once. Biblical history is full of it, like the parting of the Red Sea. Boy, there wasn't any doubt in anyone's mind that day about does God exist. Those Egyptian soldiers all seen the water being held back (and then were stupid enough to think oh we can do that too, he'll hold the water back for us so we can go kill his people...Lol!)

I think that God likes to be low-key most of the time so that people can exercise their faith and trust Him. Then when He's ready to give a large crowd a sign (proof) that He'll do that...because many people will then turn to Him (knowing the truth at that point) and increase the Lord's harvest. That makes sense to me.

I ask but he hasn't responded to my calls. It has been 9 years, and I am still on hold!

Yeah, I remember you saying that before, 9 years. I hear testimonies where (quite a few of them!) people are recounting developing an intense desire to know God so began reading His word more and praying more and puttting a lot of time into it...andthen they say something like, and then 28 years later I had a visitation from the Lord...and like that. God surely takes His time in everything. (Even all of the minor miracles that He has done for me He has shown a pattern of coming through for me always at the last minute, but never late!) So, it could take a very long time before He answers you. He is...not an easy catch. A day to the Lord is like 1000 years for us, so if you pray and ask the Lord something, even if He says, just a minute, Sarah...you might be waiting for years, lol!

Even if you were speaking with an omniscient deity on a daily basis, I wouldn't think you knew everything.

Which would be an intelligent thought. But there's those who, because I had an encounter with God...would look to me as if I have an inside track. What's this what's this and that...as if I'm expected to have all the answers. I dunno, someone to look up to spiritually, oh He can prove it, follow him. Uh, no. I'm not Billy Graham, I'm not Elijah, I can't call down fire from heaven at will. We're not to be looking to men anyway, but to God Himself. many of the questions that I'm being asked, are good questions for God! Not me, lol!

Because I'm not assuming you are crazy, only maintaining that it is possible that you have a mental problem. Because you hear voices in your head. If I had trouble breathing, and claimed it was because "I get so out of breath talking to god", you'd maintain that it was possible I just had asthma. The first step to telling the difference is asking questions.

Exactly. A reasonably cautious and prudent stance to have in today's world, lol. There really is a lot of people with real mental health issues on this planet. But then...there's questions, and there's questions. There's a big difference between intelligent questions and moronic questions. You are a cut above all the rest, clearly.

Absolutely nothing. Even my quirky hobby of growing carnivorous plants isn't unique to me.

I think that's kinda cool in a way, lol. At least you have a hobby. I think some posters here are prolly chronic inebriates and so not quite, uh, how would you say...the thinking man's man. and they don't really get any brain exercise, lol. So they have to take a hard line stance in order to cover their deficiencies and still be in the game, which essentially is trolling. All because they don't have any hobbies beyond constant inebriation so very little growth takes place. But you are not like that because you raise carnivorous plants, lol!
Does that even make sense? Lol.

-_- I don't drink or smoke anything. The marijuana would only be a concern to me if you claimed that you spoke to a deity while high on it, because marijuana is a mild hallucinogen. Or if you managed to smoke enough of it as a kid to have permanent brain damage.

No, I wasn't high. I was a pretty big pothead for quite awhile. When I was 36, I thought to quit smoking it altogether because, I like being clear headed. I think I outgrew it. But 4 days after I quit smoking it, I had an epileptic seizure. I had been seizure free (and med free!) for I think it was 17 years. I had read all the literature about pot being good for epileptics so figured that prolly did have something to do with it, so started smoking it again because I can't have a seizure while driving, I have to drive to customers houses to work. I went back on meds too...and was seizure free for 11 more years, and continued to smoke pot. But when I was 47 I thought, I really should quit smoking it, I want to quit it. Maybe it was a fluke and didn't really have anything to do with triggering my last seizure...So I quit again. I had a seizure 3 days later, and I was still on meds. (This time, I was driving and rolled my truck 3 times on the freeway when I had the seizure). So it wasn't a fluke. Smoking pot really was (does) help to keep me seizure free. So I do continue to smoke it. I have to work. All I really have to do is keep some in my system. Very little in the evening, never during the day, cept maybe sometimes the weekend. Now that I started smoking it again after having wrecked my brand new truck in that seizure, I've been seizure free since then 8 more years. Kinda sucks not being able to give it up completely, but I keep it at a minimum nowadays.

I wouldn't be seeking the answer to a question for 9 years if I didn't want the answer.

That's you though, Sarah. You wreck the curve on this board. I wasn't thinking of you when I said that stuff, lol.

To the point that it's nearly at disorder levels.

I hear you! Me too. The extent that this world has changed in the past 20 years is phenomenal. It makes me feel like...if you haven't radically changed your world view within the last 20 years, check your pulse, you may be dead!

Nah, I just think politicians want to be re-elected and don't overly care about most people, in general.

Oh, you're being kind to them, lol. What a nice way to say that, lol!

lol, anyone that claims not to ever lie is lying.

...and that's the tooth!. It's not good to underestimate the actual extent that they are outright lying to us about some very important things. I think it goes a lot deeper than anyone has even dreamed of before. Because of the fact that they are literally a bunch of satan worshiping heathens that have real demonic help. Cuz if God is real, then so are the demons. Not a problem for a Spirit filled Christian, for we have been given authority over evil spirits in Jesus name. But those guys don't walk with the Lord so have likely bitten off more than they can chew. Dangerous.

Happens sometimes. In my human physiology class, the machine that grades the exams entirely messed up, so half the class had drastically incorrect grades and the remainder still had incorrect ones by a few points.

Yep. The extra credit did not help me that time because I still failed the test, lol. That was a hard test! I have always been a good test taker, and this test was very hard. The first time I took it, the company that I was working for sent all eleven of us technicians over to take the test. They wanted to be the first copany in town with all NATE Certified technicians...well, all eleven of us failed it. ALL of us! It's that hard. I didn't pass it until my third attempt!

Hence why hypotheses are tested heavily by hundred/thousands of people before they are considered reliable enough to be called theories. It helps reduce the chances that the conclusions are the result of human error. That's why claims about individual experiences aren't considered to be near as reliable as those made through the scientific process. It's the difference between relying on the word of 1 person and the tests of many times more.

I understand that and it is true to an extent, but otoh...individual experiences can be reliable from a certain perspective considering circumstances. AM I trying to hawk my new exciting book or DVD set? No, I haven't asked for anyone's CC number. Nothing to gain here by lying. So when an individual says hey, you know what happened to me? It's entirely possible that there's just the genuine concern for ones own people. We're all in this together. It's a natural thing to want to share experiences with each other, especially supernatural ones. So a further exploration of the (alleged) facts would certainly be in order. On YouTube it's an easy thing to watch these people who are giving supernatural testimony's body language. Not so much on forum boards is this possible, lol. So I guess it'd be a matter of, well I don't know you so I may not be inclined to believe you right off the bat. But anybody has ever read anything about body language also knows that there are non-visual tells which would indicate truth or the lack thereof. Suffice to say that, the better one knows another, and their speech patterns and grammar, how they talk, can tell us some, and the more apt they are to be able to make an accurate conclusion of, is this guy full of crap or being truthful. So between knowing the guy somewhat and a little (intuition let's say) it can be done over time, to glean one way or the other, I think he's telling the truth/or lying. Doing that doesn't take scientific method. It may take time but does not require scientific method. And not being done through scientific method does not necessarily invalidate what is being said. It does have the potential to be a lie, but usually there's a motive connected if it is an outright lie.

Yeah, I know that there's nothing like being able to give demonstration in a scientific environment, and that would be cool and I would love to be able to do this for you folks, but...God makes it so that I am unable to do that sort of thing. I know why. Because he wants you to turn inward and consider Him with your heart and spirit for yourself between you and Him alone and with no man in between. It is here that we will find God. I too, wait for God. It is a long time. The one guy had a breakthrough after 28 years, another guy 11 years and so forth. All I can say is, keep trying and try not to get discouraged in waiting. He just wants to be sure that you really really want to know Him very much so. He'll sneak up on you too. Come when you least expect Him. He has an ornery sense of Humor IMO. I continue to pray for you, Sister.

Hehehe, I'm still gonna post my response to this. While I always praise the virtues of having a respectful tone when debating, debating like this for years can wear you down. I've lost my patience with people before, and you have to admit that most people on this subforum don't bother, regardless of their position in the debate. Being rude is pointless, but so is letting yourself get offended. My first experience with online people was a troll that insisted my step-dad (whom they did not know) must have molested me. Not the best welcoming committee, and it definitely made me upset, but no benefit came of being upset.

True that. Stuff used to bother me when I first began surfing the net, but I learned pretty quick that it would be stupid to go around letting people offend you. When people are rude or obnoxious, they're doing so for a reason. I believe it's usually some sort of defense mechanism. If they can make you lose your cool, then they win. But...it's usally pretty easy to glean where they're coming from and why, there's only about a dozen or so personality types, no 16 I think. And when one sees past their insult to the root cause of it, they usually get frustrated pretty quick and get even more obnoxious in defense. Have you seen where they've been trying to ascribe to me that I am upset or have my panties in a bunch? Yeah. But them saying it don't make it so. A defense mechanism. And why? It's unnecessary. Talk intelligently, and with a modicum of respect and then the conversation would them be dynamic and actually progress and go somewhere. But not everybody is as intelligent and well spoken as you are, Sarah.

I ask most of the same questions they do with different wording. In case you don't remember, when other people were suggesting you might have schizophrenia, I didn't disagree with them. Rather, I proposed a test that would help to distinguish if you did or not, since schizophrenia results in distinctly different brain activity than prayer does.

Oh I noticed lol. It certainly is "possible" that I have an issue and it didn't happen, in the sense of like, proving something in a courtroom. Technically speaking, it is possible. but while I myself personally know that I am ok and it was real and did happen, that according to the rules and standards of a courtroom or scientific lab I can not prove it so understand that man's protocol is unsatisfied and therefore open ended with regard to proven fact. However...There's always the chance, no matter how small it is perceived to be...there is a chance that it could be true. I may be being totally honest with you folks. So the possibility is there. (That's why you're still here.) You have not agreed with me or said you believe me, but you realize that the possibility is there that it could be real.

God encounters aside...do I sound like a schizophrenic to you? See any indicators in me?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I dunno. I doubt it man. It doesn't really come across to me that any of you guys are seriously interested in what I have to say beyond just looking for things to strike me down with. Like you guys are hoping that I'll say something that you can twist around and call me crazy or some crap like that. SO that said, why should I even answer any of your questions. SO you can insult me some more?

Not sure why all defensive, I haven't said you are crazy but feel free to point it out to me if you think I did. I ask because us mere humans are known to be faulty to various degrees on various points.

You want me to learn critical thinking. I do have critical thinking, but uh, here you go saying I don't, which is code talk for "critical thinking is agreeing with you and how you think"...and that's not going to happen.

I didn't say you didn't (again with all this defensive lashing out!) but I suggest it to get you to ask yourself the question. That is again, do you understand that Science and the Scientific Method are processes to come by what's most likely true, and not just a list of facts and figures that should merely be believed and memorised?

I'm not here to prove to you guys that God exists, and demonstrate God and prove God in your little laboratory of a mind and if I can't then, I'm some kook crazy dude with a mental health problem. Like I could even demonstrate Him anyway! You want proof that God exists, don't ask me for it, ask God Himself. Then He will come and prove to you that He does exist...probably. I say probably because if you approach God with that same sort of arrogant heart that you guys display towards me...I wouldn't expect Him to show up. God is not an entertainer nor does He respond to pride or arrogance. He did prove to me that He is real but I approached Him in humility being very humble about it. SO He responded to me.

I've asked God quite a number of times. I suppose I haven't done that while smoking pot or drinking a stiff brandy, should I take that up to give me a better chance at being answered??

What makes you guys think that I have all the answers anyway? If you think I'm nuts and need to be on medication...why're you asking me anything? You guys wont listen to me anyway. I said long ago...I'm nothing special. But then who was it...what makes you think you're so special? See you guys wont listen, you're just having a little fun, trolling the Christian guy, hoping that I'll give you some ammo to use against me! Aha! You've smoked pot before! You're a mental case forever now...SO I've smoked pot, so what. How many empty tequila bottles in your collection? If I was an alcoholic then that would be ok with you guys because alcohol is legal and socially acceptable, right? I drank like a fish when I was a teenager and gave it up before I even became legal age to drink. I have NEVER had a DUI...how many have you had?

I'm certainly not special. Not trolling you either, why you would say that when you're here posting in a "Science" subforum? This is part of the nature of Science - questioning beliefs, even long and deeply held ones.

And that sort of thing lets me know that not one of you even wants to know for real if God exists. You like your life the way it is and have decided to embrace it and there's no room left for God.

If there's a God, then I absolutely want to know of his existence, otherwise how can I make informed decisions about reality if I'm ignorant of such a fundamental part of it? That would be the epitome of stupidity.

Don't you guys ever question anything? Do you really believe that your government is on your side and wants to help you? Do you think that they don't lie to you? There's your critical thinking for you. If you blindly accept everything that they say, then...who is the one who really needs to learn critical thinking? You have to question them. You have to question everything.

I question everything - and that's why you and I seem to have butted heads for some reason... Everything you've attributed to a supernatural deity is known to occur via pure natural means. We hallucinate, we remember things wrongly, we adopt other people's memory as our own, etcetera. The list is never ending in the ways in which we are faulty. This is why it's unusual for people who practice critical thinking to then attribute such phenomena to a supernatural deity that they just happen to subscribe to (people of other faiths such as Hindus have equally profound experiences with their Gods just the same as you have, and according to your bible, your religion precludes the existence of other Gods, so it can't be true if those Hindus are right).

I took a professional trade related test one time. (For NATE Certification), and they had a stupid question on it that made no sense. I wrote my answer as being, this question is a wrong and impossible question to answer based on how it is worded. (I questioned them). I asked them who made this test? You need someone else who knows the trade to write the questions, and I gave them an example of how I would have worded the question (I was pretty sure I knew what they were trying to ask). It almost sounded like it was a trick question the way they worded it.
They gave me extra credit for shooting down their question because they realized that I was right.

That's pretty cool!

It happens. We've already established that I am...fallible. I can be wrong. But uh, in that same vein...so are you, so are the other baby eaters. So is your government and it's department of Education. They're just men..fallible, wrong at times by accident, and wrong at times because of agenda and outright lies.

Sure. But if an idea is filtered through the facts successfully by many people independently and continues to do so, and they provide useful predictive models that have utility, then we adopt them as useful and teach them in our education systems to help us prosper as a civilisation. There's no sense for a government to undermine such an effort unless the administration (which is changed regularly in the civilised world), or certain members of it have their own personal agendas. When this happens, the civilisation takes a hit in competitiveness. This is a demonstrable fact.

oh, and I had baby for dinner tonight too, it was Delicious! some baby sheep, basted in mint sauce with a side of mash potatoes, snowpeas and some new-age broccoli twigs...

But you guys wont admit that, they are fallible...you can be fallible. Can we even meet on even ground? No we can't because you guys say so. I am wrong, you are not and they are not...uh-huh...So why should I answer your questions again? It's like that. You guys now seem to be becoming a little hostile that I stopped cooperating and here comes the name calling.

Just said I'm fallible, but I'll say it again - I can and in fact have been wrong on many occasions. I certainly haven't said otherwise. Again, I'd be interested to have you point out where I say such a thing...

You guys would do well to follow PsychoSarah's lead when talking about these sorts of things. She doesn't agree with me, and she has a lot of class in how she carry's herself. She may not agree, but she has respect for people and conversation. She'll ask intelligent questions and acts like she really considers what she is being told, even if ultimately she rejects what is said. She don't go off asking dumb questions designed to insult the other. It's not emotional. It's a reasonable conversation between adults. It isn't about who wins, who can insult the other one more...you guys got no class. Sarah does. I'll talk to her. She makes you guys look bad.

I admire much of @PsychoSarah 's stuff, she certainly knows her biology and I think she's still studying. I'm not her though, but I'm not sure I'm lacking respect when talking to anyone here ('cept Aman, Crikey! I honestly don't know how he gets through life!! that guy is so infuriating when he completely ignores and rolls over your well-articulated points with arbitrarily inane non-sequiturs and carries on as if he's made profound statements of divine Truth!) - perhaps you've mistaken my questioning your beliefs with attacking you personally instead? I don't attack people personally, not even Aman. Your beliefs though, as with anyone's beliefs (mine includued) are open slather. Beliefs are to be challenged all the time, otherwise how would you know you didn't get tricked, or deceived in some way? When we exercise the scientific method and challenge our epistemology, then we have a far better chance at coming to the truth about reality. Even better when others can independently come to the same conclusion.

The questions I asked you are fundamental to that process. It gets you to consider these tightly held beliefs you may have never challenged - but again, remember I'm not testing you or our intelligence let alone guffawing at your lack thereof, I'm challenging your beliefs. They are separate things. or perhaps you don't care about knowing what's true from false? If that's the case, then perhaps the science subforums are not for you.

 

[gaara4158]

I understand that and it is true to an extent, but otoh...individual experiences can be reliable from a certain perspective considering circumstances.

No! That’s where you’re wrong! Individual experiences are the least reliable form of data available, period. Individuals are prone to all sorts of cognitive errors and biases. That’s why replication of results is so important in science! You’re just completely wrong here.

You admit to a history of epilepsy, chronic drug use, and teenage alcoholism and yet you’re so sure the voices in your head are real. Do you not see the problem with that?

 

[MoneyGuy]

You don't think people cared about the quality of food and drink even then?

Of course, but that's a different thing.

 

[Divide]

Not sure why all defensive, I haven't said you are crazy but feel free to point it out to me if you think I did. I ask because us mere humans are known to be faulty to various degrees on various points.

I'm sorry brother, but I guess I was kinda lumping all you guys together and prolly being too generalized instead of addressing specific things from the specific people.

I didn't say you didn't (again with all this defensive lashing out!) but I suggest it to get you to ask yourself the question. That is again, do you understand that Science and the Scientific Method are processes to come by what's most likely true, and not just a list of facts and figures that should merely be believed and memorised?

yeah I guess that did sound a wee bit harsh huh? I prolly wasn't in such a good mood the other day, sorry. Yes, I understand that science and the scientific methods will give what is most likely true in even most cases, but in most of you guy's posts, it almost has the tone of...like science is indisputable or can not be wrong (or lied about!) and that sort of perspective is really one that makes most of these type conversations moot, because minds are made up and your guy's faith is heavily into the science system, so to come into the conversation with the presupposition that I have to be wrong or lying may defeat any possibility of common ground between our views. There is a lot of unseen forces in our world that affect people in big ways and small ways. It may be called by many different names but in the end it's all means the same thing. There are spirits and there is a realm or alternate dimensions where...life is true and that place is more real than anything here on earth that we can see. (It is the world that has been pulled over our eyes to make us blind--Morpheus, Matrix). Do you believe in alternate dimensions? The para-normal? The Supernatural?

I've asked God quite a number of times. I suppose I haven't done that while smoking pot or drinking a stiff brandy, should I take that up to give me a better chance at being answered??

I said I wasn't high when He spoke to me. And I don't really drink either. I can't answer as to why God takes so long. He does what He wants to do. His ways are above our ways, and His thoughts are above our thoughts...we'll prolly understand someday...

I'm certainly not special. Not trolling you either, why you would say that when you're here posting in a "Science" subforum? This is part of the nature of Science - questioning beliefs, even long and deeply held ones.

Well, do you believe that other dimensions exist and spirits, at all...or no? Because if you don't believe in other realms, then we're just going to butt heads on everything. If you do believe in other realms as a reality, then that's a start, and we can go on from there to discuss whether or not the voice that spoke to me was really the almighty God or a hallucination of mine, and how and why I believe so that it was. But if you think that alternate dimensions and spirits are a mental illness and not real, then most of the world insane then. Ok prolly bad example. most of the world is insane.

I think it was July 2005? Of Scientific American that had an article talking about how scientist's now believe (and can prove mathematically?) that there really is at least 11 dimensions and that our universe is but a shadow of a larger reality. In effect, that we live in a simulation, a projected reality. Like a hologram or something. Now that's not my words, that's Scientific American. So science is behind the belief in alternate realities/dimensions...I merely had a spirit being speak to me from that side. I don't really know a lot about it, I've just (sorta) experienced it. So I know it's real...but, do you?

If there's a God, then I absolutely want to know of his existence, otherwise how can I make informed decisions about reality if I'm ignorant of such a fundamental part of it? That would be the epitome of stupidity.

Right. That's where we all are. The best advice that I know how to give, is to read His instruction manual that He left for us. (His word, the Bible). I look at it as if it is the instruction manual for human life on earth. I thought about that before, what if one boom I'm in front of God almighty, and have to give account. I prolly would say, Lord, I didn't know, I needed to know these things...and He will say, did you read the book?....Uhhh...I don't want to have to say no because that would make me look stupid and why didn't I at least try? Didn't even try to read the instructions?! That sounds bad and the info is in there. I started reading it. You can not understand it on your own. He wrote it in code almost so that satan couldn't get it and learn His plans and cause trouble. We're supposed to pray that the Holy Spirit will give us understanding of what we read and enlighten us before we begin to read the scriptures. Invite a supernatural Spirit to come possess us and speak to us...(I hear ya! It does sound sort of out there...! but it's our reality.)

He will too. A man could study that book all of his life and still learn new things when they read it today. I do it all the time. It's all broken up, in message. Pieces here, there. It all interlocks and belief studies have to agree with all of scripture, not just parts of it. I think God does this so that, in order for us to be able to understand it and find the way and connection to Him...we can't just pick up a chapter and go right to the answer every time, like a formula...nope. Don't work like that. It takes study. It says, study to show thyselves approved unto God...I guess He wants us to show that we're serious about wanting to know Him for real. and it's a process because as you know, mankind in general...are slow learners, lol. and it says pray without ceasing too...because this is all very serious what's going on. People that don't pray to God will certainly never find God. Never even ask him to reveal Himself?

Same thing with people who don't or wont read the Bible. What advantage do literate people (who wont read the Bible) have over illiterate people? None because they wont read. So if you fancy yourself literate or even smart...Then read it! And remember about prayer, prayer is not a monologue. Prayer is a dialogue. He speaks back to us most times in our heart, ok? inside, not audible. He sounds very much like our conscience. A safe bet is not go against your conscience. It might have been God speaking to you. Lots of times when I pray...I get done praying and instead of getting up, Amen and then going about my day, I stay, and listen. Give Him time to talk. Wait on God. Waiting on God is hard to do. It is important though. How long have you waited on God for, really? Not 6-8-10 years, generalized, but at one time? God, are you real? Please reveal yourself and show yourself to me...help my unbelief....and then wait how long before getting up to leave?

(It's hard. I know this)

I question everything - and that's why you and I seem to have butted heads for some reason... Everything you've attributed to a supernatural deity is known to occur via pure natural means. We hallucinate, we remember things wrongly, we adopt other people's memory as our own, etcetera. The list is never ending in the ways in which we are faulty. This is why it's unusual for people who practice critical thinking to then attribute such phenomena to a supernatural deity that they just happen to subscribe to (people of other faiths such as Hindus have equally profound experiences with their Gods just the same as you have, and according to your bible, your religion precludes the existence of other Gods, so it can't be true if those Hindus are right).

What you say is true, and that is what makes my story so spectacular and worth sharing with people, because through a series of events which all preceded God speaking to me that time, He...showed Himself to be real, true and supernatural to me. He proved Himself to me but did it in such a way that there is no proof of any of it (well, there is some) but mostly not. First He saved my life when I was about to die and cried out to Him to save me, which He did, then through a series of what I call minor miracles, he answered my prayers and supernaturally helped me. Now, any one of those minor miracles alone, is only circumstantial, and would easily be dismissed by the critically thinking mind. God knew this, so over a period of 2 or 3 years, He did a bunch of small miracles for me answering my prayers which resulted in a pattern taking shape in how he helped me. Thus proving Himself to me. All of these minor miracles that he did for me in response to my prayers had the effect on me of much encouragement and increased faith. It got me interested in my Lord more and more. So I was reading more and more in His word and praying more and more everyday, and that the effect of God being willing to help me and do things for me. Because I was obeying and doing what He wanted me to do. Anyone who is not getting prayers answered has to ask them self if they are obeying the Lord and His will and commandments. If they don't then...they're not very serious about wanting to know God then, are they?

Lessee, he saved my life, He gave me $400 cashone time, $100 cash another time, He changed my NIV version Bible from an NIV version into a NKJV, and I have two witnesses for this, one bought me the bible as a gift, and the other one did a study with me in it (as an NIV) to show me where the NIV version is missing different verses as compared to other versions like the KJV and NKJV, He changed it into a NKJV one day! that's the only answer. I know it was a NIV before, I have no other bible that it could even be confused with. I didn't pray for that either...? Another time he delivered to me a pound of gourmet coffee when I was out. He stopped my son from being arrested because I prayed that he not be arrested that day, I needed him for work! He had an active warrant too for not paying some fines. Another time, God actually sent an Angel to my garage sale and he bought "everything on that table over there..." for $2400 which was way more than it was worth. (I was behind in rent and utilities and about to get kicked out), He even healed my hip one night which was dislocated because I had had an epileptic seizure and fell off a 10' ladder at work and dislocated my hip. No insurance so I layed in bed for a week and prayed that he would heal me while I slept (my hip). He did. I should've asked for total healing but I didn't. SO I'm still epileptic and still have a bad back from breaking it. He even let me drive my truck on an empty gas tank one time. I had a very important appointment and couldn't miss it, but was on fumes and I knew it. But I had to try to make the appointment so I prayed and off I went...I ran out of gas and coasted into a parking lot space. I figured oh well, maybe next time. Then I just absentmindedly touched the accelerator and it revved up, it never did die, so I said wow thanks Lord, watch this faith and drove on out and to my appointment and home without a sputter, the next morning it wouldn't make it three blocks to the gas station, lol! (I know I was out of gas. I know how it sounds, I've had plenty of experience with that especially during that time period!) But these are all things that God has done for me (what I can remember off the top of my head) and over time, because much of that were in direct response to my prayers, and they got answered...that it became obviously true, to me. That many coincidences can not be ignored. Eventually a guy says, hey somethings going on here...and that's where I'm at. I know that God is real and that his name is Jesus. And then He chose to speak to me! I wasn't even praying or anything. Playin on the computer. It was pretty quick. His presence entered the room and it was immediately obvious who it was. I felt the presence of God, and then He spoke. Scripture says my sheep know my voice, but I had never heard it before (that I can remember), and yet, I knew who it was. I can't explain that but it is so. There wasn't any fear involved at all. It was like being in the presence of pure love and acceptance. it was like He impressed upon me his being which was His heart and His name for the most part, hard to explain. I stupidly argued with Him (asked questions instead of just saying, yes Sir) and he answered that time in that warning tone of voice like parents use with their children and said just pray for him now he needs help...I kinda felt chewed out, just by the tone of voice. I knew I shouldn't have asked questions. Wrong time. but there was still no fear.

So yeah, you're right brother. It is actually a very huge thing, and yes, if Jesus is real and He is, then, the Hindus are wrong. So it's big news because I have cut through all of the religions of the world in an instant and learned the truth about God...when He spoke to me because on top of all the other event that he's done for me, to speak audibly is the next best thing to actual manifestation in person. Scripture says that, if ye draw close to God, that He will draw close to you. So that's how you find Him (get an answer). I dunno if I gave you details about the circumstances surrounding those minor miracles, if the conglomeration of them may perhaps be able to bring a sense of validity to the to the discussion. God is legit.

That's pretty cool!

I thought so too man. Thanks.

Sure. But if an idea is filtered through the facts successfully by many people independently and continues to do so, and they provide useful predictive models that have utility, then we adopt them as useful and teach them in our education systems to help us prosper as a civilisation. There's no sense for a government to undermine such an effort unless the administration (which is changed regularly in the civilised world), or certain members of it have their own personal agendas. When this happens, the civilisation takes a hit in competitiveness. This is a demonstrable fact.

Well scripture says that deception is the enemies greatest tool. So essentially, we can safely assume that, generally speaking, we've been lied to for our entire lives. Born into a spiritual war, behind enemy lines. And supposed to sift through the deception and find God. The truth is out there but we have to sift for it a little at a time. Even though it all sounds pretty twilight zone, I've been paying attention for awhile now...and it sorta adds up, the actions of what has been happening as opposed to just the talk. Because what they say and what they do can be mighty different. (you can almost get more news with the volume down and just watch it instead. You'll be able to see what's going on in the world. Lol.

Just said I'm fallible, but I'll say it again - I can and in fact have been wrong on many occasions. I certainly haven't said otherwise. Again, I'd be interested to have you point out where I say such a thing...

Maybe you didn't. But science is fallible too, and one should not put 100% stock in science alone. There are certain things that science can prove 100%, but much of science is ultimately theories which they try to work into a model to see if it would work like that. But with the spiritual war going on, we know that their agenda is to hide God and explain everything from a scientific point of view, but do it in a way that sounds plausible. It's really all about man is having an identity crisis. We are not humans. We were created as spiritual beings, in the very image and likeness of God Himself. But we lost it in the fall in the Garden of Eden. And now that Jesus came and died on the cross to pay the debt for us, we can regain our true identity and live as the spiritual beings that we were created to be. But they wont teach people how to live as a spiritual being, only that we are human and flesh...there's a whole 'nother side to life. We have spiritual senses just like we have flesh senses. But you have to practice them and exercise those senses to be able to use them. They're teaching people all wrong.

I hope I didn't go too far...you might get a good laugh out of all that hey?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I doubt it but really don't know, that's between you and God. There will be two groups of people there, I'll be one on in the other group of people across from yours.

Assuming you have the "correct" religion, that is. Because if it turns out that it's Allah or Shiva or whatever sitting on that throne.....

Not really, you've already made it clear that you guys wont believe anything that anyone says.

Correct. "says". Exactly right.
Now, if you could actually demonstrate that what you merely say is actually accurate and/or has merrit, that would be a different story.

Can you?

There's a lot more to aan education than blindly accepting everything their textbooks tell you.

True. And the same goes when the "textbook" is the bible.

 

[gaara4158]

Yes, I understand that science and the scientific methods will give what is most likely true in even most cases, but in most of you guy's posts, it almost has the tone of...like science is indisputable or can not be wrong (or lied about!) and that sort of perspective is really one that makes most of these type conversations moot, because minds are made up and your guy's faith is heavily into the science system, so to come into the conversation with the presupposition that I have to be wrong or lying may defeat any possibility of common ground between our views.

It's not that we come into the conversation assuming you must be wrong. We may reasonably suspect you're in error somewhere in your reasoning if your claim is extraordinary, but our mind isn't made up to begin with. The reason we don't buy into your conclusion is we are skeptics, and as skeptics we only believe things when presented with sufficient evidence. This is the point at which we are unlikely to budge, so if you don't agree with this the science subforums are probably not for you. To your credit, you have tried to present evidence, but unfortunately what you presented was not good evidence. To start off, personal anecdotes are the lowest form of evidence to a skeptic. As I explained earlier, people are prone to all kinds of cognitive errors and biases, many of which they may not be aware. There's no way of knowing what contributed to your experience if the only point of data we have is your testimony. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not lying, but I'm not convinced you haven't made a mistake, especially given what you've revealed about yourself so far.

There is a lot of unseen forces in our world that affect people in big ways and small ways. It may be called by many different names but in the end it's all means the same thing. There are spirits and there is a realm or alternate dimensions where...life is true and that place is more real than anything here on earth that we can see. (It is the world that has been pulled over our eyes to make us blind--Morpheus, Matrix).

How do you know this? If the forces are unseen, how can you tell they're affecting people? There's a lot you say you know, but it seems like by "know" you mean "really, really want to believe." You're telling me you couldn't possibly be wrong?