Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[Jimmy D]

Sooo, any evidence for ID or creationism yet?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it was July 2005? Of Scientific American that had an article talking about how scientist's now believe (and can prove mathematically?) that there really is at least 11 dimensions and that our universe is but a shadow of a larger reality.

If they mentioned 11 dimensions, they were probably talking about String Theory. The reference to 11 dimensions means orthogonal spatial dimensions in addition to length, width, and height. We don't notice them because they're are expected to be curled up ('compactified') smaller than the size of a sub-atomic particle. These are nothing like 'alternate dimensions' where strange universes lurk, such as the 'Phantom Zone'.

In effect, that we live in a simulation, a projected reality. Like a hologram or something. Now that's not my words, that's Scientific American.

That would be a different idea, the 'Holographic Principle'. This is a much-overhyped discovery in the mathematics of physics, that says the information content (all the stuff) of any spherical volume can be hologramically encoded onto the surface area of that volume; i.e. what's inside is mathematically equivalent to a hologram on its surface.

This discovery was very useful for physicists trying to figure out what happens to information in a black hole, and has found applications elsewhere, but just because the universe can be mathematically encoded as a hologram, it doesn't mean the universe is a hologram; the equivalence applies to any volume.

So science is behind the belief in alternate realities/dimensions...I merely had a spirit being speak to me from that side.

Sorry, no; the stuff you mentioned doesn't mean alternate realities or dimensions, that's comic book stuff. And if you're thinking about multiverse theories, they don't support that either.

I don't really know a lot about it, I've just (sorta) experienced it. So I know it's real...but, do you?

I know that you're mistaken to claim support from physics on the basis you give.

 

[Snappy1]

Sooo, any evidence for ID or creationism yet?

No, but it's only been six months and 94 pages. Give people a little time, jeez.

 

[Divide]

but unfortunately what you presented was not good evidence. To start off, personal anecdotes are the lowest form of evidence to a skeptic.

I'm pretty sure that's just opinion there. In a court of law a man's personal testimony equates to personal knowledge and acceptable as testimony. If you choose to not believe, that's ok, but you can't change the rules of evidence.

 

[Divide]

These are nothing like 'alternate dimensions' where strange universes lurk, such as the 'Phantom Zone'.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You don't believe in anything that is unseen on this planet. Probably true for the others also. That's ok if that's what you all believe or want to believe, but it does not invalidate what I have said or proven me to be wrong, lying or a mental case.

 

[Divide]

How do you know this? If the forces are unseen, how can you tell they're affecting people? There's a lot you say you know, but it seems like by "know" you mean "really, really want to believe." You're telling me you couldn't possibly be wrong?

Personal knowledge. I've been paying attention. I know what happened. I am not wrong because God came and revealed it to me.

Now I know you don't believe that, but, since these unseen forces are unseen, which is why you say that I could not be right...the same thing could be true about you not wanting to believe in them. If you can't see them, then you can't know that they are not there. So there you have it. You have no clue, and are really just hoping that I am wrong or lying.

So maybe you don't believe in gravity or the wind either? There's about 22 billion videos of people posting paranormal events on this planet. So, everyone is lying or insane?

Uhh, ok.

 

[Divide]

Correct. "says". Exactly right.
Now, if you could actually demonstrate that what you merely say is actually accurate and/or has merrit, that would be a different story.

Can you?

That's all you got, huh? Prove it or it aint so. You hope it aint so is more likely. God don't work like that. Not my rules, not my creation. Ask God why.

I KNOW...that even if I did have evidence, a video or whatever, that you'd just simply say, oh he's a photoshopper and the video lies. So good luck to you.

 

[Divide]

Sorry, no; the stuff you mentioned doesn't mean alternate realities or dimensions, that's comic book stuff. And if you're thinking about multiverse theories, they don't support that either.

That's interesting how you say that. Who are, "they?" and have you doube checked their work?

Now I'm assuming this morning, that based on the way you guys are talking, that none of you believe in the unseen. Forces or powers that are not natural to this earth, nor can they be tested in a lab by scientific method...correct me if I'm wrong about any specific person which may believe in unseen forces. Don't wanna get too general on you guys and make you feel insulted. We're just talking...

That said, you guys do seem to speak with a lot of conviction, you sound sincere. Ok, so let me ask you this...God aside for the moment, let's talk about other types of (alleged! Lol) unseen forces for a minute. I already mentioned gravity and wind, let's hit the big one...so correct this statement where it is wrong...

If there's no such thing as unseen forces, then love is a sham and does not exist.

What about Love? Do you believe in love? Have you ever felt love for another? Have you ever felt loved by another? I imagine at least some of you people have been married or may be married now...Did your Wife (or husband) love you? If there's no such thing as unseen forces, then love is a sham and does not exist, so presumably you had your wives or Husbands prove it to you, that they loved you? How was this done?

 

[Snappy1]

So, everyone is lying or insane?

Uhh, ok.

Pretty much. That's human nature.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You don't believe in anything that is unseen on this planet.

That's not what I said. There are many unseen things one would be foolish to ignore. Where there is good evidence or good reason to suppose unseen things exist, it is reasonable to suppose they exist (or may exist). For example, have you seen electricity? radio? bacteria? UV A?

That's ok if that's what you all believe or want to believe, but it does not invalidate what I have said or proven me to be wrong, lying or a mental case.

I try to avoid 'wanting to believe' things, but you're right, it doesn't prove you to be lying or a mental case; it only suggests that your invocation of physics in support of your claim is mistaken.

As I said before, hearing voices is not uncommon. People who hear voices interpret them in various ways, according to what they say. They are only considered to be a psychiatric condition if they seriously interfere with daily life, or there are other symptoms consistent with known psychiatric conditions. Neuroscience has a plausible explanation for how it occurs. YMMV.

 

[gaara4158]

I'm pretty sure that's just opinion there. In a court of law a man's personal testimony equates to personal knowledge and acceptable as testimony. If you choose to not believe, that's ok, but you can't change the rules of evidence.

It’s not opinion, it’s science. Studies have shown eyewitness testimonies to be outrageously unreliable, their weight in a courtroom notwithstanding. It has been demonstrated that people can unknowingly conjure up detailed false memories just by the power of suggestion. Memories can be influenced by ways they are subsequently described. In short, to science your word is worth nothing. Data is what matters. No scientific paper is going to rely on “I swear this is how it happened.” It’s really a major scandal how highly personal testimony is valued in a courtroom.

Personal knowledge. I've been paying attention. I know what happened. I am not wrong because God came and revealed it to me.

Now I know you don't believe that, but, since these unseen forces are unseen, which is why you say that I could not be right...the same thing could be true about you not wanting to believe in them. If you can't see them, then you can't know that they are not there. So there you have it. You have no clue, and are really just hoping that I am wrong or lying.

So maybe you don't believe in gravity or the wind either? There's about 22 billion videos of people posting paranormal events on this planet. So, everyone is lying or insane?

Uhh, ok.

So you’re basically telling me you couldn’t be wrong because God made you infallible. If that’s all you’ve got, fine I guess. I just don’t believe you. I believe you think you’re right, but I think you’re mistaken. And I think that because you refuse to provide any evidence besides “because I said so.”

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...if you're thinking about multiverse theories, they don't support that either.

That's interesting how you say that. Who are, "they?" and have you doube checked their work?

'They' are the multiverse theories; they don't support interaction of the sort your suggestion requires. Here's an article that covers some of it: Why haven't we bumped into another universe yet?

Now I'm assuming this morning, that based on the way you guys are talking, that none of you believe in the unseen. Forces or powers that are not natural to this earth, nor can they be tested in a lab by scientific method...correct me if I'm wrong about any specific person which may believe in unseen forces. Don't wanna get too general on you guys and make you feel insulted. We're just talking...

It's a mistake to lump us all together - I have no idea what the other atheists, humanists, etc., think about things beyond what they've posted here (and nor do you). Personally, I have no problem with the unseen within reasonable bounds (see my previous reply); superstition and magic - not so much.

... let's hit the big one...so correct this statement where it is wrong...

If there's no such thing as unseen forces, then love is a sham and does not exist.

What about Love? Do you believe in love? Have you ever felt love for another? Have you ever felt loved by another? I imagine at least some of you people have been married or may be married now...Did your Wife (or husband) love you? If there's no such thing as unseen forces, then love is a sham and does not exist, so presumably you had your wives or Husbands prove it to you, that they loved you? How was this done?

You're equivocating 'forces' there.

Love, like other emotions, is a concept associated with a certain mental state - it's a 'force' in the colloquial sense of something having a significant influence (in this case, on behaviour), not in a scientific sense. Also, it's only unseen in as much as it's a conceptual abstraction of behaviour we do see (and observed as emotions we do feel).

This is not the same as forces in science. There are four known fundamental forces (electromagnetism, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force), and a number of non-fundamental forces that are indirect consequences of the action of those forces. Complex physiological influences on behaviour are not considered to be forces.

So, no; I think that argument is an equivocation fallacy.

However, it is entirely possible that there are as yet undiscovered forces. But our best physical models tell us that, given the research we've done in 'labs' like the Large Hadron Collider, we've thoroughly explored the force and particle interactions in the regime of physics relevant to everyday life. The implication is that if there are novel forces that remain undiscovered, they must either be too short-range or too weakly interacting to affect everyday force-particle interactions, or we would have seen their effect in that research.

This means that if the standard model of physics is a good model (i.e. a close approximation to how nature really behaves), and every indication suggests that is the case (no experiment has ever shown otherwise), then there is no way that voices can be 'beamed' into your head in the way you describe. Other than gravity, the only force that can significantly affect the particles that make up your brain (protons, neutrons, electrons) is electromagnetism, and it just can't do what would be required.

The most plausible explanation for the voices you hear/heard is that they were generated by brain processes below/outside your conscious awareness in the normal way, but were not signalled/recognised as being of internal origin, so were not filtered for sense and/or relevance, were treated as being from an external source, and so were made available to your conscious awareness as such. Your conscious awareness naturally interpreted them as voices of external origin.

I may be wrong - I'm interpreting what you've said in terms of my understanding of the current state of knowledge about such things, but if you have any questions, I'll do my best to answer them. If you find yourself unable to accept my analysis, so be it - I'd be interested to hear reasonable arguments against it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I.. It’s really a major scandal how highly personal testimony is valued in a courtroom.

Yes, but things are changing... slowly, as the powers-that-be become aware of the fallibility of eyewitness testimony. For example, the efforts to isolate witnesses to prevent cross-contamination of reports, and the efforts to avoid the use of leading questions (at least in the UK - not sure about the USA).

 

[DogmaHunter]

Personal knowledge. I've been paying attention. I know what happened. I am not wrong because God came and revealed it to me.

"god" also revealed things to Mohammed.
"aliens" also came and abducted certain people and subsequently performed weird sexual experiments on them.

How do we, as "outsiders", differentiate between YOUR claim of "personal experience" and the claims of muslims, scientologists, hindu's, alien abductees, etc?

Now I know you don't believe that, but, since these unseen forces are unseen, which is why you say that I could not be right...

If they are "unseen", how could you have "seen" them??

the same thing could be true about you not wanting to believe in them

Not really. At least, not if one cares about holding justified beliefs.

If you can't see them, then you can't know that they are not there. So there you have it. You have no clue, and are really just hoping that I am wrong or lying.

Really?
So, are you "really just hoping" that there are no aliens abducting people?
Or any other thing that people believe in based on "personal experience", that you can't verify in any way?

So maybe you don't believe in gravity or the wind either?

Both gravity and wind have physical manifestation that can be tested for.
Unlike the "unseen" things you are claiming.

There's about 22 billion videos of people posting paranormal events on this planet.

The vast majority of which, can not possibly be correct, if YOUR particular religion is correct.
I don't think christian theology, for example, is compatible with hindu claims of reincarnation or being in touch with your inner immortal Thetan.

So, everyone is lying or insane?

Yes. Or just mistaken.

Uhh, ok.

This is surprising to you? So, do you usually just believe whatever people tell you?
So, you believe that Tom Cruise is an "operating thetan" that can manipulate space and time?
Do you believe the claims of alien abductees?
Do you believe that Mohammed was visited by an angel who brought him the message of Allah?

No? Then surely, it must be rather easy for you to understand why we won't be believing your particular claims at face-value, yes?

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's all you got, huh?

It's all I need.
The alternative would be to just believe whatever anyone says.

Surely you can see how that would be a problem?
It would turn you into the dream victim of ANY con-man.

Prove it or it aint so

No. Rather: "demonstrate it or I have no reason to believe your claim"

You hope it aint so is more likely

No. "hope" has nothing to do with it.
See, I actually require a rational reason to believe something.

You merely claiming it, is not such a reason.

God don't work like that. Not my rules, not my creation. Ask God why.

Nobody answered.

I KNOW...that even if I did have evidence, a video or whatever, that you'd just simply say, oh he's a photoshopper and the video lies. So good luck to you.

The same goes for you. What, do you believe all the "footage" of alien space ships? Does that help you believing the claims of alien abductees?

If the "evidence" for alien abductions isn't good enough for YOU to accept those claims, why would you expect me to believe your claims which are backed by evidence that's even WORSE then the supposed evidence in support of alien abduction?

See, this isn't about me nore is it about the exact contents of what you are claiming. It's just about your claim and the total lack of rational support in favor of that claim. That's it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Now I'm assuming this morning, that based on the way you guys are talking, that none of you believe in the unseen.

Sure. Where "unseen" means "without manifestation". And thus undetectable, untestable, unverifiable, unfalsifiable,...

Forces or powers that are not natural to this earth, nor can they be tested in a lab by scientific method...correct me if I'm wrong about any specific person which may believe in unseen forces.

I can't speak for others but for me, yes, that sounds about right.
I'll also add that I can't imagine it being any other way.... I mean, why would you believe something that is literally defined as being undetectable, untestable, unverifiable, unfalsifiable,...

Let's give 2 examples:
- extra-dimensional aliens who control every coin flip in undetectable ways
- undetectable 7-headed dragons that make volcano's erupt in undetectable ways

I mean, how could you ever believe either one of those claims? What good would it do? And how could one ever be rationally justified in accepting such claims?

I gave 2 examples but I can basically give you a potentially infinite list of such things, basically only limited by my own imagination. It's not even hard to come up with such unfalsifiable claims.

Surely you can see the problem with such claims, right?

That said, you guys do seem to speak with a lot of conviction, you sound sincere. Ok, so let me ask you this...God aside for the moment, let's talk about other types of (alleged! Lol) unseen forces for a minute. I already mentioned gravity and wind

Gravity and wind are NOT "unseen" as that word has been defined in your very own post. Both wind and gravity can easily be tested. You don't even need a lab.
They are perhaps "unseen" in the sense of actual visuals.... but they are NOT without manifestation.

For example, we actually actively use gravitational forces present in the solar system to sling-shot space probes to Mars. We use wind for all kinds of purposes as well. We can even produce wind ourselves... all it takes is blowing some air.

So no... wind and gravity aren't "unseen" BY ANY means.

If there's no such thing as unseen forces

Nobody said that either... you've just changed all the language, which results in a misrepresentation of the actual position, which is: there is no reason to believe they exist.
Not believing X exists IS NOT THE SAME as actively believing that X does NOT exist.

X COULD exist... there just is not reason to believe so.

An undetectable 7-headed dragon COULD be standing right next to you. But there's no reason to believe it is the case. How could you know?

Being undetectable, you couldn't know by definition...
And since "the undetectable" and the "non-existant" look exactly alike to us, neither could you tell the difference between an undetectable dragon and a non-existing one. So by definition, you couldn't rationally state the claim that such a dragon does NOT exist either.

See?

You need to think things through a bit more and stop thinking so much in black and white.

, then love is a sham and does not exist.

No, it's not.

What about Love? Do you believe in love?

Love is an emotion.

Have you ever felt love for another?

yes.

Have you ever felt loved by another?

Sure. Well, to be exact... I've observed behaviour in others which is consisten with behaviour towards someone that is loved.

I can't actually "observe" an emotion in someone (at least not, without putting them under a brian scanner). I can "feel" my own emotions, but I can not "feel" the emotions of others. I can only observe behaviour of others and that behaviour can be (or not) consistent with the expression of a certain emotion.

I imagine at least some of you people have been married or may be married now...Did your Wife (or husband) love you?

Her behaviour is consistent with that, yes.

If there's no such thing as unseen forces, then love is a sham and does not exist

1. "love" is an emotion, not a force
2. emotions demonstrably exist.

so presumably you had your wives or Husbands prove it to you, that they loved you? How was this done?

A long period of consistent behaviour supporting the case that my wife loves me.

 

[Divide]

That's not what I said. There are many unseen things one would be foolish to ignore. Where there is good evidence or good reason to suppose unseen things exist, it is reasonable to suppose they exist (or may exist). For example, have you seen electricity? radio? bacteria? UV A?

That isn't what I'm saying. I do believe in unseen forces. I have seen electricity arc and felt it when I got juiced before, lol.

I try to avoid 'wanting to believe' things, but you're right, it doesn't prove you to be lying or a mental case; it only suggests that your invocation of physics in support of your claim is mistaken.

My invocation of physics? Where did I do that? When I said I heard it?

As I said before, hearing voices is not uncommon. People who hear voices interpret them in various ways, according to what they say. They are only considered to be a psychiatric condition if they seriously interfere with daily life, or there are other symptoms consistent with known psychiatric conditions. Neuroscience has a plausible explanation for how it occurs. YMMV.

So why am I being told that I have a psychiatric condition? It did not interfere with my daily life. I asked earlier in the thread do I sound like a psychiatric case? Am I displaying symptoms, and if so what are they?

And so if there are plausible explanations for what occured, what are they? what is it? You ended your post at the jumping off point.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That isn't what I'm saying. I do believe in unseen forces. I have seen electricity arc and felt it when I got juiced before, lol.

Then electricity is NOT "unseen" as you yourself have defined that word.
Let me remind you how YOU defined it:

Forces or powers that are not natural to this earth, nor can they be tested in a lab by scientific method...

Electricity IS "natural" to this earth.
It can also be tested in a lab by scientific method.
Heck, we can actually generate it ourselves.
You can also "see" it: lightning etc.


Maybe you should try and at least use and apply words like you yourself are defining them.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

My invocation of physics? Where did I do that? When I said I heard it?

#1858 : "... So science is behind the belief in alternate realities/dimensions...I merely had a spirit being speak to me from that side"

So why am I being told that I have a psychiatric condition? It did not interfere with my daily life. I asked earlier in the thread do I sound like a psychiatric case? Am I displaying symptoms, and if so what are they?

You should ask the people who told you that. I expect they think that hearing voices is a strong indicator of psychiatric problems. It can be, but ain't necessarily so, any more than the occasional feeling of being watched, or forgetting what you went upstairs for.

And so if there are plausible explanations for what occured, what are they? what is it? You ended your post at the jumping off point.

I gave the current neurological explanation - i.e. that non-self voices people hear in their heads are generated by subconscious processes but due to a glitch, don't get flagged as internal, so enter conscious awareness unfiltered, as non-self input (see #1810).

 

[Divide]

It’s not opinion, it’s science. Studies have shown eyewitness testimonies to be outrageously unreliable, their weight in a courtroom notwithstanding. It has been demonstrated that people can unknowingly conjure up detailed false memories just by the power of suggestion. Memories can be influenced by ways they are subsequently described. In short, to science your word is worth nothing. Data is what matters. No scientific paper is going to rely on “I swear this is how it happened.” It’s really a major scandal how highly personal testimony is valued in a courtroom.

That is what they want us to believe all right. I do believe that science is correct about most things, but that some cases, they either lie about it (for unknown reason) or they are mistaken in their methods (like dating carbon 14 for example. They can date something to be 13 billion years old? Really. Let's see the math on that. We know how math works. If you get one decimal point out of place or one equation slightly off, it trashes the whole thing. I don't buy it that carbon dating is accurate.)
I believe that people can conjure up false memories and stuff like that. The power of suggestion is real, I have proven that to myself. Now I am not a scientist, and I assume that you are not a scientist (otherwise you would have ran your credentials up the flagpole)...so while you (and I!!) have some concept of science and so forth, the fact remains that you don't really know if what you have learned about science is really true. You haven't checked it for yourself, checked the other man's work or anything of that nature, you simply read their papers and decide for yourself if it sounds plausible or not. When you decide, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, you then go ahead and (choose to) accept his findings and conclusions. In short, you have faith in him.

Not really conceptually different than when I myself as a Christian, choose to put faith in God. It is faith. I have faith in God, you have faith in science. So if you, having faith in science saw something one day that went against the laws and rules of science or physics...how would you react to that? Would you go see a doctor or would you consider that, wow, I just seen that happen and it's not supposed to be able to happen so maybe...someone lied or else something is not subject to the laws of physics? Or what?.

I have a suspicion formed over a long time, that, what do we know for an absolute certainty? We know that we live and think. Maybe our thoughts, are the only true substance on earth. We already know that we can't believe anything we hear and maybe haf of what we see, and that the enemy's (as legend has it, lol!) primary weapon against us, is deception. Dump that on top of hallucinations and everything could be fake. Just a mental exercise?

You cold be really strapped down in a bubble somewhere (like in the Matrix) and don't even know it. My Bible says, no bubble for me, that I am seated in heavenly places with Christ right now...

Legend has it, that we must choose wisely by rightly dividing the truth from the lies and after having done that, we will get promoted and get to live our real life as spiritual beings. Choose poorly and you perish. With the stakes being as high as they are...I question everything. If you pay attention to this planet, some things become evident. You pick up on things. For instance, have you ever had someone walk up behind you, and before they say anything, you feel their presence, you know that they're there? Or walked into a room and suddenly a negative vibe is there but you just walked in, how could you know? Things like that. We do pick up on things for ourselves. Like I said earlier, we have senses, we also have spiritual senses.

So you’re basically telling me you couldn’t be wrong because God made you infallible. If that’s all you’ve got, fine I guess. I just don’t believe you. I believe you think you’re right, but I think you’re mistaken. And I think that because you refuse to provide any evidence besides “because I said so.”

So you’re basically telling me you couldn’t be wrong because God made you infallible. If that’s all you’ve got, fine I guess. I just don’t believe you. I believe you think you’re right, but I think you’re mistaken. And I think that because you refuse to provide any evidence besides “because I said so.”

But I never said that I am infallible or that God made me infallible. And I'm not refusing to provide evidence, I would love to be able to provide it. Again, I am not able to provide evidence beyond my word. And you don't know me well enough to have enough confidence in me to take me at my word, reasonable. I got my evidence from God, but it was an internal revelation thing and not uh, data for you guys. I guess you would've had to be there. But I tell you one thing Brother...when the almighty creator of the universe walks into the room...you will know it. I hope answers you some day. Then you will know.