Why many people here use word girlfriend/boyfriend?

[jahel]

OK - there is another term you do not understand.

That’s because you place no difference between intelligent evil and a mis-dear-meaner

 

[bèlla]

Ok Bella Pardon me for calling you Bellz. So how exactly have i equated this to fornication by the way? Could you pull that part out so I can go through it again please thanks.

I think a more profitable approach would tackle the differences between personal convictions and holy ones. The latter hail from God and usually don’t result in discussions like these. They arrive with a certainty and peace that only the Lord can give. The message is for you and you alone.

More importantly, they’re rarely subject to debate or defense. Knowing brings a finality which belief does not. That’s the realm of personal convictions. We hold to certain truths and live accordingly. But our confidence isn’t from God. It hails from self.

I broached my initial reply from both vantage points. If it’s something the Lord has laid on your heart. By all means, follow through. But a holy conviction cannot be applied to the masses. That’s legalistic.

I included a thread on the subject for your edification. Lest you think you’re alone in your thoughts. The warning is applicable to personal convictions. Many people make declarations which sound good at first hearing. But the consequences of their decision becomes unbearable. After a while it’s an albatross.

But holy truths include a measure of strength which allows us to forbear our position. In short, I’m encouraging you to be certain you aren’t conflating the two and consigning yourself to a difficult path.

~Bella

 

[splish- splash]

I think a more profitable approach would tackle the differences between personal convictions and holy ones. The latter hail from God and usually don’t result in discussions like these. They arrive with a certainty and peace that only the Lord can give. The message is for you and you alone.

More importantly, they’re rarely subject to debate or defense. Knowing brings a finality which belief does not. That’s the realm of personal convictions. We hold to certain truths and live accordingly. But our confidence isn’t from God. It hails from self.

I broached my initial reply from both vantage points. If it’s something the Lord has laid on your heart. By all means, follow through. But a holy conviction cannot be applied to the masses. That’s legalistic.

I included a thread on the subject for your edification. Lest you think you’re alone in your thoughts. The warning is applicable to personal convictions. Many people make declarations which sound good at first hearing. But the consequences of their decision becomes unbearable. After a while it’s an albatross.

But holy truths include a measure of strength which allows us to forbear our position. In short, I’m encouraging you to be certain you aren’t conflating the two and consigning yourself to a difficult path.

~Bella

It's all good

 

[RaymondG]

I think James is a good starting point for your question.

“But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.“ —James 1:14-15

We know that kissing doesn’t automatically lead to fornication. Nor does holding hands. Or being alone for that matter.

Why is that? The desire to go beyond the boundaries set must exist prior to its commencement. This is why you pay for purchases instead of walking out of the store without paying. You know theft is wrong and the affinity for stealing does not exist.

No one falls into bed. You’ve been heading in that direction within your person. We may cite weakness, inebriation, and other factors which lessen our culpability. But the fact remains. If fornication isn’t your aim. You won’t do it. If you aren’t entertaining ideas about your partner sexually you’ll be less susceptible to temptation than those who do.

For the latter, we have a solution. The thoughts must be taken captive and denounced. Not as wrong per se. But inappropriate in light of the situation. They’re unmarried.

We have a term for this in modern lingo. Capture the mind and the body follows. The battle isn’t with your flesh. It’s in your head.

~Bella

You words sound good and warrants many likes and agrees, Yet they did nothing to answer the question asked.

I said nothing about fornication or acts leading to them.

Let me repeat:
"Do you feel that two people who are in a relationship, which can lead to marriage, can be alone, or in public, kissing and not feel any sort of lust for each other? e.g. kissing their partner would render the same feelings as kissing, say, a grandmother?"

I can understand if you feel that answering this will put you in a position to have to answer more questions about whether or not lust, or just thinking about an action is sin....therefore dancing around the question or changing the topic would be best.

In this case, no answer can be an answer....

 

[RaymondG]

IMO you are operating on a modern western definition of "lust" and NOT what would have been understood by the original audience.

Go re-read my post #17.

So you not only know the thoughts in my mind, but you know the thoughts of people in a culture that existed 2000 years ago? You know what I understand and what people many ages ago understood?

Who, then, can argue with you?

 

[th1bill]

Why many people here use word girlfriend/boyfriend?
We must live according to bible. Where in bible is used word girlfriend/boyfriend?
Is this not fornication? Fornication means to have sexual activity without being married to the human. Kiss is fornication too, because it is sexual activity. What do you think?

Please, I am confused!! On what basis do you tout the title, Good Human, and then Judge others anjd not within the parameters of chapter sseven of Matthew? I have never, in my thirty years-plus of reading and praying over the scriptures, found a kiss to be sinful, in and of itself. Perhaps you can teach us, from the scriptures, of this unheard of doctrine?

 

[bèlla]

I can understand if you feel that answering this will put you in a position to have to answer more questions about whether or not lust, or just thinking about an action is sin....therefore dancing around the question or changing the topic would be best.

I’ve answered your question. I can’t accommodate the specific wording or expression you’re seeking. There’s little need to dance in this medium. We’re under no obligation to engage or respond. It’s a choice on both ends.

For a debate to ensue there must be mutual buy-in from the parties involved. I’ve provided sufficient evidence to support my view. You’re welcome to disagree. But I won’t dispute the word in this matter. Or add anything to it for the sake of argument.

~Bella

 

[RaymondG]

Kissing your significant other in the heat of the moment? Not sinful.

How is it that you have the authority to make this exclamation, without referring to the Lord?

Undressing them with your eyes and wanting to have wild, lusty sex? Yeah, that's sinful.

What if the sex is not lusty? What if you find the person completely unattractive and just want to get it over with? It is then not sinful? If so, why attach lust to the act?

Also, pray tell; how are we supposed to know if we're attracted to someone if we feel nothing towards them that indicates 'romantic love' and not 'family love'?

You are assuming I agree with the OP, and I said no such thing.....so I do not understand your question.

 

[jahel]

I’m off to the rodeo myself

 

[splish- splash]

Please, I am confused!! On what basis do you tout the title, Good Human, and then Judge others anjd not within the parameters of chapter sseven of Matthew? I have never, in my thirty years-plus of reading and praying over the scriptures, found a kiss to be sinful, in and of itself. Perhaps you can teach us, from the scriptures, of this unheard of doctrine?

I think he simply meant to say, that kissing could lead to a whole lot of things. The question is, can people kiss and leave it at just kissing? Sexual feelings can get aroused quickly especially in men. Then what next?

 

[RaymondG]

I’ve answered your question. I can’t accommodate the specific wording or expression you’re seeking. There’s little need to dance in this medium. We’re under no obligation to engage or respond. It’s a choice on both ends.

For a debate to ensue there must be mutual buy-in from the parties involved. I’ve provided sufficient evidence to support my view. You’re welcome to disagree. But I won’t dispute the word in this matter. Or add anything to it for the sake of argument.

~Bella

Yes I agree. You are under no obligation to respond.....and sometimes no response at all, is better than a group of words unrelated to the questions ask.....although no response yields no rewards.

I am not a debater and you have given me nothing to agree or dis agree with.... It would be best to not waste any more time on this.

 

[RaymondG]

I think he simply meant to say, that kissing could lead to a whole lot of things. The question is, can people kiss and leave it at just kissing? Sexual feelings can get aroused quickly especially in men. Then what next?

I understood him as comparing the verses concerning looking with lust and it being as if the act was committed......with kissing with lust being just as good as committing acts...in the eyes of God.

This would entail knowing the thoughts of the ones kissing......to which, I would question.....Is it possible to kiss a mate, without there being any lust or desires involved.......regardless of whether or not it lead to anything.

 

[splish- splash]

I’m off to the rodeo myself

I've watched it on telly before. Sounds to me like you're going to have a great time. Have fun

 

[Mathetes66]

You can’t ask someone to say “show me somewhere in the Bible where it says kissing is a sin” and ask for a proof text when the verses that talk about sexual immorality and impurity would have been >clearly< understood to mean no kissing (modern kissing on the lips between romantic partners) by ALL of the NT authors and ALL of the people in ALL of the churches who read ALL of the letters.

You haven't shown this to be true in Scripture at all, simply gave your opinion. Many other posters have shown this also to be in error.

Some can kiss & show affection for another without evil lust or fornication. One must be fully convinced in one's own mind whether 'they' can kiss without being tempted to lust. Temptation is not sin, only sinning (whether mentally or physically) is sin. If one is tempted to sin when kissing, then one should abstain from kissing.

Romans 14:5,13,14,22-24 One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind...Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.

14I am convinced & fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean IN ITSELF. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then FOR HIM it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother, for whom Christ died.Keep your belief about such matters between yourself & God.

Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe (proceeding from faith) is not right, you are sinning.

I Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

I Cor 10:23,24 “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is edifying. No one should seek his own good, but the good of others.

I Cor 10:25-33 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s & the fullness thereof.” If an unbeliever invites you to a meal & you want to go, eat anything set before you without raising questions of conscience.

28But if someone tells you, “This food was offered to idols,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who told you & for the sake of conscience—the other one’s conscience, I mean, not your own.

For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God.

32Do not become a stumbling block, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in all I do. For I am not seeking my own good, but the good of many, that they may be saved.

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

It doesn’t matter, no one will listen to me & so many people will give away special things reserved for their wife, will fall into temptation, will start marriages rocky because they allow their culture to weaken the scripture & hide behind holy kiss verses & “freedom in Christ” platitudes. I have personal reasons that make this issue more sensitive for me regarding my wife which is why this post is so long LOL. I can admit that a Christian couple can probably kiss lust free (most of the time) but do we really want to make that the standard.

Your own personal experiences are yours. Putting personal judgments aside, you can admit that Christian couples can probably kiss lust free. This proves out to be true. It depends on the couple though. And no one is saying this is to be the standard.

Each person must be fully convinced in their own minds & whatever does not proceed from faith, will be sin TO THAT PERSON. Personal freedom in Christ is just that, as Paul so eloquently says--unless it defrauds, overreaches & adversely affects another person. Then personal freedom can become sin.

So, I should have shared this in the beginning of this thread. If to the OP (or anyone else), it would be sin, then don't do it. If not, then we have freedom to do so, within the holy boundaries of love & affection.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Why many people here use word girlfriend/boyfriend?
We must live according to bible. Where in bible is used word girlfriend/boyfriend?
Is this not fornication? Fornication means to have sexual activity without being married to the human. Kiss is fornication too, because it is sexual activity. What do you think?

Unless it is a French kiss I am not sure what is sexual about a kiss.

 

[Dave-W]

So you not only know the thoughts in my mind, but you know the thoughts of people in a culture that existed 2000 years ago? You know what I understand and what people many ages ago understood?

Who, then, can argue with you?

The thoughts of Jewish culture 2000 years ago was preserved for us in the Jewish writings of the Mishnah and Talmuds.

As to your thoughts, I prefaced my statement on that with "IMO," in my opinion. that is based on you going a different direction from what i see in those ancient Jewish writings.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

It’s so funny how when someone stands up for purity, so many other Christians attack them to protect their life choices.

All of the NT authors and Christians who received the epistles would have understood any passage discussing sexual immorality to include romantic kissing between partners which is common today among Christians. It’s not even debatable, it’s an established fact, any church historian or Jewish/early church scholar can tell you.

So people have to close their ears and post verses about “holy kiss” Verses that have nothing to do with this topic and are talking about an entirely different kind of kiss to protect their life choices.

Any male on here is lying to themself if they think they can romantically kiss the woman they love and never be at risk for falling into lustful thoughts. The Bible says to flee from temptation, not walk up to the line.

But people are defensive because they want to do something and if someone questions it they have to label that person a legalist or change.

 

[splish- splash]

I understood him as comparing the verses concerning looking with lust and it being as if the act was committed......with kissing with lust being just as good as committing acts...in the eyes of God.

This would entail knowing the thoughts of the ones kissing......to which, I would question.....Is it possible to kiss a mate, without there being any lust or desires involved.......regardless of whether or not it lead to anything.

A quick peck lasting only for a second as mates do, perhaps.... To be honest, i'm yet to come across a guy who can kiss their girlfriend and ofcourse fondle for minutes and not get an erection. Oops! Please excuse my French a bit there.

 

[RaymondG]

A quick peck lasting only for a second as mates would do, perhaps.... To be honest, i'm yet to come across a guy who can kiss their girlfriend and ofcourse fondle for minutes and not get an erection.

I agree with you.....This would be a normal answer, which is why, I suspect, that the other posters I asked, refused to answer it.

A question to ponder, then, is......Would participating in an act that we all know, leads the body to prepare for intercourse.....acceptable? Or can we at least respect the opinion that it may not be?

THis is not necessarily for answering....just pondering.....but all answers would be respected.

 

[Mathetes66]

So people have to close their ears and post verses about “holy kiss” Verses that have nothing to do with this topic and are talking about an entirely different kind of kiss to protect their life choices.

Any male on here is lying to themself if they think they can romantically kiss the woman they love and never be at risk for falling into lustful thoughts. The Bible says to flee from temptation, not walk up to the line.

But people are defensive because they want to do something and if someone questions it they have to label that person a legalist or change.

Always wondered who 'these people' are, some mysterious category of human beings that lie, close their ears & get so defensive. Anybody else wonder about this vague group of 'people?' Always get blamed & judged but never clearly identified. Will need to keep searching for these elusive 'people.'

I agree with you.....This would be a normal answer, which is why, I suspect, that the other posters I asked, refused to answer it. A question to ponder, then, is......Would participating in an act that we all know, leads the body to prepare for intercourse.....acceptable?

Ah yes, and here is another pontificating, omnisicent group: 'we all know.' It also is another mysterious group that seems to speak for everyone, as if we all agree that all other posters refused to answer this question. Always find that group on the slippery slope of pomposity & presumption; long slope, very slippery.