Why is Hell permanent?

[Sophrosyne]

nope no strawman here, nor saying your wrong and im right.....

there is no need for pride, when i can read, (for myself), without someone elses interpretation for me, what the words (in orig texts) said, and it lines up perfectly well, that there is no hell in the bible.

hell was invented by man, for his own selfish reasons.

You are welcome to your opinion (and it is just that). And I will stick with my strawman argument because unlike you I think if God wanted to create a place to send those who die who cannot be allowed in heaven a place where they can pay for their sins and live forever apart from God he can call it hell.

 

[dollarsbill]

You are welcome to your opinion (and it is just that). And I will stick with my strawman argument because unlike you I think if God wanted to create a place to send those who die who cannot be allowed in heaven a place where they can pay for their sins and live forever apart from God he can call it hell.

And to destroy all the wicked would be VERY unfair to give them all the same punishment. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Again, you're confusing what God does and what He tells us to do. He is the perfect Judge. You are not.

the logic speaks for itself, theres no need for any thought at all, concerning the point i just made....if He says its an abomination, and the thought never entered His mind, it is only logical to conclude then, that He would not turn around and do the exact same thing....you can ignore the contradiction all you want.....doesnt make it go away....and saying its o.k. for Him to do it, and not us, is a weak arguement.....that doesnt make the contradiction go away either...ignore scripture all you want. isnt going to change anything. goodnite.

 

[Sophrosyne]

And to destroy all the wicked would be VERY unfair to give them all the same punishment. Ain't gonna happen.

exactly.. God said he would repay people for their evil in the end (vengeance is mine) and in hell that will happen. If God wanted no part of vengeance he wouldn't have said.... it is his. He would just say don't take revenge on anyone and leave it at that.

 

[Sadalmelik]

You are welcome to your opinion (and it is just that). And I will stick with my strawman argument because unlike you I think if God wanted to create a place to send those who die who cannot be allowed in heaven a place where they can pay for their sins and live forever apart from God he can call it hell.

well thats part of your problem right there, He doesnt call anyplace 'hell' in the bible, and 28 out of 40 eng.transl.bibles dont call it that either....so sorry, its actually you who is in the minority here, and not just 'my opinion', as you put it. ive already posted the versions prev....28 dont use the word hell, and only 12 do.....

 

[dollarsbill]

the logic speaks for itself, theres no need for any thought at all, concerning the point i just made....if He says its an abomination, and the thought never entered His mind, it is only logical to conclude then, that He would not turn around and do the exact same thing....you can ignore the contradiction all you want.....doesnt make it go away....and saying its o.k. for Him to do it, and not us, is a weak arguement.....that doesnt make the contradiction go away either...ignore scripture all you want. isnt going to change anything. goodnite.

Since when did you give commandments to all of humanity?

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

 

[dollarsbill]

well thats part of your problem right there, He doesnt call anyplace 'hell' in the bible, and 28 out of 40 eng.transl.bibles dont call it that either....so sorry, its actually you who is in the minority here, and not just 'my opinion', as you put it. ive already posted the versions prev....28 dont use the word hell, and only 12 do.....

You are charging God as being unfair, giving all the wicked the same punishment. That would be VERY unfair. You're not being consistent.

 

[Sadalmelik]

H3>Jeremiah 32:34-35

English Standard Version (ESV)

34 They set up their abominations in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. 35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

keep avoiding it all you want.....God is unchanging, says so in the bible.

the only way your pov holds a drop of water, is if God changed from ot to nt.

and uhhhhh.....sorry, that didnt happen, nor is it going to happen.

 

[Sadalmelik]

God is unchanging......
God is unchanging......
God is unchanging......


'found it an abomination', nor did it 'enter my mind'

God is unchanging

 

[dollarsbill]

H3>Jeremiah 32:34-35

English Standard Version (ESV)

34 They set up their abominations in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. 35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

keep avoiding it all you want.....God is unchanging, says so in the bible.

the only way your pov holds a drop of water, is if God changed from ot to nt.

and uhhhhh.....sorry, that didnt happen, nor is it going to happen.

If you are the perfect judge and can tell God what He can and cannot do then I will concede to your position.

 

[Sophrosyne]

well thats part of your problem right there, He doesnt call anyplace 'hell' in the bible, and 28 out of 40 eng.transl.bibles dont call it that either....so sorry, its actually you who is in the minority here, and not just 'my opinion', as you put it. ive already posted the versions prev....28 dont use the word hell, and only 12 do.....

The words were equivalent for their time periods and audiences. Hades, the grave, sheol are all hell even though they differ overall to different audiences the people understood it was a holding place for the dead that had not gone to heaven.

 

[Timothew]

I have no problem with existence then judgment whatsoever. I have a problem with finding cast away and perish to harmonize with annihilation. They are nowhere near the same meaning but all would easily be considered similar to ruined as things that are cast away tend to be ruined already and things that are perishable that are cast away... end up ruined also.

If a person is cast away from God, who is the source of life, they can't get eternal life from Him. This is why cast away harmonizes with perish and annihilation. Perish does not have the same meaning as ruin. Perish means to die. God's word says that those who perish are no more.
You can read it here for yourself:

But the wicked will perish:
A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:10
But the wicked will perish:
The Lord’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields,
they will vanish—vanish like smoke. Psalm 37:20

This doesn't say the wicked will remain and be tortured in hell. This says the precise opposite of that. They will perish, they will be no more, they will vanish.

I know that it is difficult to stop believing something that you have believed all of your life, but this is what God's Word says. We all should believe what God's word says rather than a false tradition that we have been enamored with for a long time.

 

[Timothew]

If true the NT wouldn't say 'eternal'. There would be no need whatsoever.

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The eternal fire consumes whatever is put into it. That is what fire does. The eternal punishment is to be consumed by the fire. Only the righteous go into eternal life. Those who are punished don't receive eternal life. This verse says "The righteous (go) into eternal life." The eternal punishment is to perish and be dead eternally.

Your statement that "if true the NT wouldn't say eternal" is simply not true. God's Word does say that the wicked perish and are no more and the NT does say eternal.

 

[Timothew]

Sounds like you're saying that God's people don't receive eternal life.

He wasn't saying that. He was saying that people don't have inherent immortality. Only God is immortal, the Bible says this. Sadalmelik gave you the verse that says this.

We know that immortality is a gift from God. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God's people receive the gift of eternal life, Those who are opposed to God do not receive the gift of eternal life from Him. Do you understand this now?

 

[dollarsbill]

The eternal fire consumes whatever is put into it. That is what fire does. The eternal punishment is to be consumed by the fire.

Then it wouldn't be eternal.

Only the righteous go into eternal life. Those who are punished don't receive eternal life. This verse says "The righteous (go) into eternal life." The eternal punishment is to perish and be dead eternally.

Those who do not exist cannot be punished. It would not be eternal.

Your statement that "if true the NT wouldn't say eternal" is simply not true. God's Word does say that the wicked perish and are no more and the NT does say eternal.

Eternal is quite clear. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

Eternal punishment in GREAT detail:

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

He wasn't 'consumed'. He was quite alive in the fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

He wasn't saying that. He was saying that people don't have inherent immortality. Only God is immortal, the Bible says this. Sadalmelik gave you the verse that says this.

We know that immortality is a gift from God. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God's people receive the gift of eternal life, Those who are opposed to God do not receive the gift of eternal life from Him. Do you understand this now?

What's the difference between being 'immortal' and living forever?

 

[Sadalmelik]

What's the difference between being 'immortal' and living forever?

nothing, but in order to live forever (eternal life), it has to be a gift given to you, just as the bible states it is....a gift (its called a gift because one doesnt have it already_ if one did, it really wouldnt be much of a gift), but since all are not immortal, as the bible says only He is, then if you dont recv the gift of eternal life, as the bible states nowhere that the wicked get this gift....then you dont live forever. if you dont live forever, there would be only one logical conclusion to make, that being that one would not live forever.....again, just as the bible states,
Romans 6:19-23

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin isdeath, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord


again, consistent message....and for those who think verse 23 says something other than it does, it is qualified just 4 verses earlier in verse 19, 'in human terms', nothing left for exotic interpretation here.....we all know what death means.

 

[dollarsbill]

nothing left for exotic interpretation here.....we all know what death means.

Death has more than one meaning. And it does not mean cease to exist.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NASB)
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

 

[Timothew]

What's the difference between being 'immortal' and living forever?

They mean the same thing.

Then it wouldn't be eternal.

I disagree. It would be eternal if the punishment lasted forever. I'm saying the punishment is death, so it is eternal as long as death lasts forever.

Those who do not exist cannot be punished. It would not be eternal.

Those who do exist are punished with punishment not existing. So long as they continue to not exist for all eternity, the punishment is eternal.

Eternal is quite clear. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

Yes, I agree with you on this point. Eternal life is life that never ends. Eternal punishment is punishment that never ends. What kind of punishment is it? According to the Bible, the punishment is to perish. If a person perishes and remains dead forever, it is an eternal punishment.

Eternal punishment in GREAT detail:
Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
He wasn't 'consumed'. He was quite alive in the fire.

Do you consider this passage to be descriptive of hell?

 

[Timothew]

Death has more than one meaning. And it does not mean cease to exist.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NASB)
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

"They will be no more" only has the meaning of "They will be no more."
So even if you find one passage that says death is not really death, you have to prove that death does not mean cease to exist in every case and you have to show that "they will be no more" actually means "they will continue on forever."