Why is Hell permanent?

[dollarsbill]

yep, in fact i do know someone who can.....Its God....God can do anything, as ive already stated....except something which He is not...another words, God can stop Hiimself from doing that merely because it is not in His nature to punish and torture someone,anyone, for all eternity, to suffer an agonizing torture without end....just like God cant be evil, even if He wanted to be.....same analogy, torture/punishment is evil, and therefore against Gods nature....see how simple this truth is?

Since God punishes the wicked throughout the Bible ... He will do so also in the future. His judgments are righteous, not evil. Eternal Hell is His righteous judgment on those who rebel against Him. The Biblical terms 'forever' and 'eternal' = NEVER ending.

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

 

[he-man]

Since God punishes the wicked throughout the Bible ... He will do so also in the future. His judgments are righteous, not evil. Eternal Hell is His righteous judgment on those who rebel against Him. The Biblical terms 'forever' and 'eternal' = NEVER ending.

[DARBY] shall pay the penalty of everlasting NEVER ending destruction

τισουσιν G5099 I. Act., pay a price by way of return or recompense, mostly in bad sense, pay a penalty, with acc. of the penalty, [LSJ]
c. repay, c. acc. rei, “τροφάς τινι” E.Or.109:—in various phrases, τ. ἀντιποίνους δύας repay equivalent sorrows, A.Eu.268 (lyr.); φόνον φόνου ῥύσιον τ. S.Ph.959; αἱμάτων παλαιτέρων τ. μύσος send one pollution in repayment for another, A.Ch.650(lyr., Lachm., for τείνει）“; ἀρᾶς τ. χρέος” Id.Ag.457 (lyr.).--Constr.:
1. c. acc. of the thing paid or of the thing repaid (v. supr.).
3. c. dat. of pers. to whom payment is made (v. supr.).
4. c. dat. of the penalty, “τ. θανάτῳ ἅπερ ἦρξεν” Id.Ag.1529 (anap.); τύμμα τύμματι ib.1430 (lyr.).
5. with gen. of the thing for which one pays, τ. ἀμοιβὴν βοῶν τινι pay him compensation for the cows, Od.12.382; τ. τινὶ ποινήν τινος pay one retribution for . . , Hdt.3.14, 7.134; τ. τείσασθαί τινα δίκην exact retribution from a person, E.Med.1316 (dub.l.).
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=TI%2FNW

 

[Sophrosyne]

If destruction doesn't end then it must be continuing because it hasn't yet been completed, or whatever is being destroyed isn't gone yet.

ev·er·last·ing

(

v

r-l

s

t

ng)adj.1. Lasting forever; eternal.
2. a. Continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time.
b. Persisting too long; tedious: everlasting complaints.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/everlasting

 

[he-man]

If destruction doesn't end then it must be continuing because it hasn't yet been completed, or whatever is being destroyed isn't gone yet.

ev·er·last·ing

(

v

r-l

s

t

ng)adj.1. Lasting forever; eternal.
2. a. Continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time.
b. Persisting too long; tedious: everlasting complaints.

everlasting - definition of everlasting by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

[DARBY] shall pay the penalty of everlasting NEVER ending destruction ruin, desolation, annihilation the action or process of destroying something. ▶a cause of someone's ruin. see destroy © Oxford University Press, 2004

destroy
■ verb

put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it. ▶ruin emotionally or spiritually.

kill (an animal) by humane means.

ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

we had to destroy the enemy: ANNIHILATE, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase; kill, slaughter, massacre, exterminate
Concise Oxford Thesaurus

 

[Sophrosyne]

[DARBY] shall pay the penalty of everlasting NEVER ending destruction ruin, desolation, annihilation the action or process of destroying something. ▶a cause of someone's ruin. see destroy © Oxford University Press, 2004

destroy
■ verb

put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it. ▶ruin emotionally or spiritually.

kill (an animal) by humane means.

ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

we had to destroy the enemy: ANNIHILATE, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase; kill, slaughter, massacre, exterminate
Concise Oxford Thesaurus

You have a serious contradiction here.... you cannot "put an end" to something that is "Never ending".

 

[Sophrosyne]

[DARBY] shall pay the penalty of everlasting NEVER ending destruction ruin, desolation, annihilation the action or process of destroying something. ▶a cause of someone's ruin. see destroy © Oxford University Press, 2004

destroy
■ verb

put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it. ▶ruin emotionally or spiritually.

kill (an animal) by humane means.

ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

we had to destroy the enemy: ANNIHILATE, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase; kill, slaughter, massacre, exterminate
Concise Oxford Thesaurus

now I can agree that destruction means this

 

[TheQuietRiot]

What of the untold millions who have never heard of the gospel?

In the orthodox view, they are in hell too, burning forever.

I cannot accept a god so cruel

 

[Sophrosyne]

What of the untold millions who have never heard of the gospel?

In the orthodox view, they are in hell too, burning forever.

I cannot accept a god so cruel

It matters not what you think, but what the bible equates as the truth. If you automatically judge God as cruel without having a real clue as to the working of Hell itself and torment and punishment it is easy to say nobody should suffer for anything. This exalts man as more important than God himself when the value of man depends entirely upon what God decides instead of what man decides for himself.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I find this very interesting:

Hence the advocates of the second system of error have declared that the first has long been proved entirely absurd and untenable; and they have set up another, namely:
That the soul is not immortal at all, and that death means simply ceasing to exist, and therefore, that life is to be found only in Christ; and that, after a certain quantity of punishment, the wicked will be turned out of existence, or consumed by the fire of hell, and exist no more.
Such is the doctrine much in vogue, in this country, on this subject.
Now, upon the face of this doctrine the grossest inconsistency at once appears. For, if death means ceasing to exist, the soul not being immortal at all, and that anything beyond this is found only in Christ, how come the wicked to be alive after death in order to be punished? Where do they get this life? They cannot be alive to be punished at all. "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life," say they. Now, if this means literally that the wicked have not life beyond death, they cannot exist when dead to be punished. It is quite clear to a Christian man, that "life" is used here in the sense of life in which we live to God in blessedness; for having no life is said of those who are naturally alive, but are dead in trespasses and sins. They have no divine life or blessedness, instead of being dead to sin and alive unto God.
But then the scripture is most clear and positive, that there is wrath and punishment and judgment and torment after death for all who are not saved. And this they cannot deny, without denying the whole testimony of God. But if there is, then men do live after death; and death does not mean ceasing to exist, but ceasing to exist soul and body together in this world. And that is what is as plain as possible from scripture. "It is appointed unto men once to die, and AFTER THIS the judgment." Why here, the judgment, which is to bring on men the whole extent of the consequences of sin from the wrath of God, is after death. Though sin makes always miserable; yet the coming of wrath, in the true full sense of the word, does not begin till after death, and by judgment, instead of death being the end of the man. And mark, this is not anything peculiar to those that have heard of Christ, though they doubtless are far more guilty and will be beaten with many stripes. It is appointed unto men. It is their common natural portion as sinners*-death and judgment.
This was written by John Nelson Darby (Darby translation)

Brief Scriptural Evidence On The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment, For Plain People :: JN Darby

 

[Timothew]

Hi Sophrosyne,

I read your quote with interest, yet God's Word says "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found...all sinners will be destroyed." (Psalm 37:10 and 38)

The "grossest inconsistency" disappears when a person thinks about this. Would it be just of God if He allowed sinners to go to their destruction without ever having judged them? So we believe that it is part of God's mercy that all people are resurrected and judged by Jesus Christ on Judgment Day. Those that are found to be with Christ are given eternal life, as promised in the scripture. Those that oppose Christ are cast away from His presence. Since we all know that there is only eternal life in Jesus Christ, their life ends when they are cast away. They perish just as the Bible says.

 

[he-man]

I find this very interesting:

Hence the advocates of the second system of error have declared that the first has long been proved entirely absurd and untenable; and they have set up another, namely:
That the soul is not immortal at all, and that death means simply ceasing to exist, and therefore, that life is to be found only in Christ; and that, after a certain quantity of punishment, the wicked will be turned out of existence, or consumed by the fire of hell, and exist no more.

In 1737 Sykes published ‘An enquiry into the meaning of demoniacks in the New Testament’ going further than Joseph Mede’s exposition of the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ by rejecting any belief in the existence of demons and regarding those possessed as simply suffering from mental illness, as the later work of Dr. Richard Mead.

He also rejected the devil as a supernatural evil being, taking the allegory argument of John Epps.
Not only did Epps reject the orthodox church establishments, but he also rejected a number of the mainstream Christian doctrines. He rejected the doctrine of the immortal soul, emphasising instead resurrection as the escape from death.

In this vein, the second coming of Christ is also emphasised. He taught that Hell is the grave, not the place of torment of mainstream Christianity. He also rejected the Trinity, stating that Jesus is the Son of God, a human by nature. He also spoke out against the glorification of war-heroes: "the honour of the British flag is a specious phrase which blinds men's eyes to right and wrong", he said.

The most infamous of Epps' unorthodox views regards the devil (1842), though he was one of a long line of Dissenters to take this view stretching back through Simpson (1804), Lardner (1742), Sykes (1737), going back to the Dutch Anabaptist David Joris (1540).[2] According to Epps, references in the Bible to the devil and Satan are, in the main, to be understood as personifications of the lustful principle in man.

Lust, Pride, and Ambition: Isaac Newton and the Devil​

STEPHEN DAVID SNOBELEN​

University of King’s College, Halifax

 

[Sophrosyne]

In 1737 Sykes published ‘An enquiry into the meaning of demoniacks in the New Testament’ going further than Joseph Mede’s exposition of the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ by rejecting any belief in the existence of demons and regarding those possessed as simply suffering from mental illness, as the later work of Dr. Richard Mead.

He also rejected the devil as a supernatural evil being, taking the allegory argument of John Epps.
Not only did Epps reject the orthodox church establishments, but he also rejected a number of the mainstream Christian doctrines. He rejected the doctrine of the immortal soul, emphasising instead resurrection as the escape from death.

In this vein, the second coming of Christ is also emphasised. He taught that Hell is the grave, not the place of torment of mainstream Christianity. He also rejected the Trinity, stating that Jesus is the Son of God, a human by nature. He also spoke out against the glorification of war-heroes: "the honour of the British flag is a specious phrase which blinds men's eyes to right and wrong", he said.

The most infamous of Epps' unorthodox views regards the devil (1842), though he was one of a long line of Dissenters to take this view stretching back through Simpson (1804), Lardner (1742), Sykes (1737), going back to the Dutch Anabaptist David Joris (1540).[2] According to Epps, references in the Bible to the devil and Satan are, in the main, to be understood as personifications of the lustful principle in man.

Lust, Pride, and Ambition: Isaac Newton and the Devil​

STEPHEN DAVID SNOBELEN​

University of King’s College, Halifax

I find it interesting that you use Darby's translation to try and prove a point yet reject what the man himself (translator) believes.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Hi Sophrosyne,

I read your quote with interest, yet God's Word says "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found...all sinners will be destroyed." (Psalm 37:10 and 38)

The "grossest inconsistency" disappears when a person thinks about this. Would it be just of God if He allowed sinners to go to their destruction without ever having judged them? So we believe that it is part of God's mercy that all people are resurrected and judged by Jesus Christ on Judgment Day. Those that are found to be with Christ are given eternal life, as promised in the scripture. Those that oppose Christ are cast away from His presence. Since we all know that there is only eternal life in Jesus Christ, their life ends when they are cast away. They perish just as the Bible says.

I have no problem with existence then judgment whatsoever. I have a problem with finding cast away and perish to harmonize with annihilation. They are nowhere near the same meaning but all would easily be considered similar to ruined as things that are cast away tend to be ruined already and things that are perishable that are cast away... end up ruined also.

 

[dollarsbill]

What of the untold millions who have never heard of the gospel?

In the orthodox view, they are in hell too, burning forever.

I cannot accept a god so cruel

How about a God who drowned everyone on Earth but 8?

1 Peter 3:20 (NASB)
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

 

[dollarsbill]

Hi Sophrosyne,

I read your quote with interest, yet God's Word says "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found...all sinners will be destroyed." (Psalm 37:10 and 38)

The "grossest inconsistency" disappears when a person thinks about this. Would it be just of God if He allowed sinners to go to their destruction without ever having judged them? So we believe that it is part of God's mercy that all people are resurrected and judged by Jesus Christ on Judgment Day. Those that are found to be with Christ are given eternal life, as promised in the scripture. Those that oppose Christ are cast away from His presence. Since we all know that there is only eternal life in Jesus Christ, their life ends when they are cast away. They perish just as the Bible says.

If true the NT wouldn't say 'eternal'. There would be no need whatsoever.

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Sadalmelik]

Since God punishes the wicked throughout the Bible ... He will do so also in the future. His judgments are righteous, not evil. Eternal Hell is His righteous judgment on those who rebel against Him. The Biblical terms 'forever' and 'eternal' = NEVER ending.

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

i find it ironic you would make a comparison of what God did in the bible, and what He will supposedly do, according to you, in the future.

yes God has throughout biblical historymay have punished, etc but it was for correctedness and to guide men and correct their ways. ultimately, it was for a REASON. just like we punish our children, it is for a reason, isnt it? we dont just punish them to punish them, that would be kind of....sadistic, wouldnt it?
so, that is the big difference....an eternal hell/damnation serves NO PURPOSE. there is no reason to do it, other than to punish merely for the pleasure of punishing....
so again, huge difference, and irrlevant.

 

[Sadalmelik]

I find this very interesting:

Hence the advocates of the second system of error have declared that the first has long been proved entirely absurd and untenable; and they have set up another, namely:
That the soul is not immortal at all, and that death means simply ceasing to exist, and therefore, that life is to be found only in Christ; and that, after a certain quantity of punishment, the wicked will be turned out of existence, or consumed by the fire of hell, and exist no more.
Such is the doctrine much in vogue, in this country, on this subject.
Now, upon the face of this doctrine the grossest inconsistency at once appears. For, if death means ceasing to exist, the soul not being immortal at all, and that anything beyond this is found only in Christ, how come the wicked to be alive after death in order to be punished? Where do they get this life? They cannot be alive to be punished at all. "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life," say they. Now, if this means literally that the wicked have not life beyond death, they cannot exist when dead to be punished. It is quite clear to a Christian man, that "life" is used here in the sense of life in which we live to God in blessedness; for having no life is said of those who are naturally alive, but are dead in trespasses and sins. They have no divine life or blessedness, instead of being dead to sin and alive unto God.
But then the scripture is most clear and positive, that there is wrath and punishment and judgment and torment after death for all who are not saved. And this they cannot deny, without denying the whole testimony of God. But if there is, then men do live after death; and death does not mean ceasing to exist, but ceasing to exist soul and body together in this world. And that is what is as plain as possible from scripture. "It is appointed unto men once to die, and AFTER THIS the judgment." Why here, the judgment, which is to bring on men the whole extent of the consequences of sin from the wrath of God, is after death. Though sin makes always miserable; yet the coming of wrath, in the true full sense of the word, does not begin till after death, and by judgment, instead of death being the end of the man. And mark, this is not anything peculiar to those that have heard of Christ, though they doubtless are far more guilty and will be beaten with many stripes. It is appointed unto men. It is their common natural portion as sinners*-death and judgment.
This was written by John Nelson Darby (Darby translation)

Brief Scriptural Evidence On The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment, For Plain People :: JN Darby

1timothy
14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.


scripture seems to disagree with your view, that humans have immortality,from the above verse, and others, it says the complete opposite.

 

[Sadalmelik]

1 Corinthians 15:53-54

English Standard Version (ESV)

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”


these verses, in context, are specifically speaking of the saved, the righteous, who will recv eternal life, the only way they can do this, (have eternal life), is when God gives it to them, as they are inherently mortal, NOT IMMORTAL.

and untill you can come up with the verses, any at all, that say the wicked, damned, etc....will recv this same gift, i think it safe to assume, the will not be alive forever.....this once again shows the complete contradiction to your view of eternal hell/damnation. ill stick with what the bible actually says.....not 'mans version'

 

[dollarsbill]

i find it ironic you would make a comparison of what God did in the bible, and what He will supposedly do, according to you, in the future.

Don't you expect Him to be inconsistent?

yes God has throughout biblical historymay have punished, etc but it was for correctedness and to guide men and correct their ways.

How were those God destroyed 'corrected'?

ultimately, it was for a REASON. just like we punish our children, it is for a reason, isnt it? we dont just punish them to punish them, that would be kind of....sadistic, wouldnt it?

Not when God does it.

so, that is the big difference....an eternal hell/damnation serves NO PURPOSE. there is no reason to do it, other than to punish merely for the pleasure of punishing....
so again, huge difference, and irrlevant.

The purpose is that God is just and holy. To give Hitler the same punishment as others would not be fair to most who do not repent. They would be receiving the same punishment if they are all destroyed.

 

[dollarsbill]

1timothy
14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

scripture seems to disagree with your view, that humans have immortality,from the above verse, and others, it says the complete opposite.

Sounds like you're saying that God's people don't receive eternal life.